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Handicap - Does It Tell Your Golf Story

JB said:
It also tends to lean back to what an index really is. Many seem to still believe your handicap is your scoring average when in actuality it is your scoring potential. So does it tell your story? You tell us.
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This is it for me. I have the potential to shoot mid 70's but what it doesn't take in to account is that I also have a very real potential to shoot in the high 80's. It is true, keep the ball in front of you and you can potentially score well.
 
Hawk said:
But should it be rated easier for a guy that hits the ball really well, putts great, etc, but is 70 years old and only drives the ball 200 yards? Is he not skilled as well, despite his age and lack of power? Again, it's me minsconstruing index as a measure of skill rather than what it is, but I don't think I'm the only one that has had that impression.
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I understand your point, my 82 year old father fits this description. He is certainly more skilled than many other golfers that carry a 15 GHIN, but father time has caught up to him and his index has slipped accordingly. He doesn't seem to care about his index anymore, he's just glad to have another day!
 
Jeanthemachine said:
EXACTLY. The score one shoots on any particular course must take into account the slope and rating of that course. I recall hearing (or reading) that a scratch golfer would be fortunate to break 100 on a course like Bethpage black if set up for the US Open.

If you select the proper tees to match to the courses you usually play you should be able to score reasonably close to your handicap.
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Amateur golfers such as us have no business playing on a course set up for the US Open from the same tees that pros would use.

I get the idea of challenging yourself on a course that is set up for an event like the US Open. That's all well and good but that's also a situation you would not normally encounter. If you can't hit the ball 250 off the tee, then there's no way you should be playing a course like Bethpage Black from the tips in US Open conditions. What's the point? Just to say you did it? You aren't doing yourself or your golf game any favors other then adding a checkmark to your bucket list. The USGA slope rating only goes up to 155. Bethpage Black in US Open conditions from the tips could easily be much higher.
 
IMO, difficulty of course does make a difference. If you play easy courses all the time, your score is going to be lower than if you played tough courses all the time.
Keeping it in play off the tee makes it much easier if you have more of a margin for error, good wedge play becomes easier with larger, flatter greens and putting becomes easier with slower greens that are easier to read and have less definition to them.
 
Gaijin_Golfer said:
IMO, difficulty of course does make a difference. If you play easy courses all the time, your score is going to be lower than if you played tough courses all the time.
Keeping it in play off the tee makes it much easier if you have more of a margin for error, good wedge play becomes easier with larger, flatter greens and putting becomes easier with slower greens that are easier to read and have less definition to them.
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This should not impact handicap index however as slope ratings make up for the differences in difficulty.
 
JB said:
This should not impact handicap index however as slope ratings make up for the differences in difficulty.
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I think that this is the heart of the debate. I honestly think that there is a minor flaw in the system as I've played with single digit handicappers whose rating comes exclusively from easy courses and they really struggle on tough courses to even come remotely close to their handicap. I understand that's why they have the slope rating but it seems that the scale or impact of the slope is a bit off in some cases.
 
RoundersRob said:
I think that this is the heart of the debate. I honestly think that there is a minor flaw in the system as I've played with single digit handicappers whose rating comes exclusively from easy courses and they really struggle on tough courses to even come remotely close to their handicap. I understand that's why they have the slope rating but it seems that the scale or impact of the slope is a bit off in some cases.
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Yes, however they have to shoot a lower score on the easier course to get a lower handicap than they would a marginal score on a tough course.
 
RoundersRob said:
The USGA slope rating only goes up to 155. Bethpage Black in US Open conditions from the tips could easily be much higher.
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You are 100% correct. IMO, the slope rating for almost any US Open or PGA Championship would far exceed the USGA cap of 155. Just using the last two PGA's as an example. The tournament tees at AAC and Kiawah are listed at 152 and 144 respectively. Having seen AAC up close for both PGA's, and talking with members both years, the pros play a completely different golf course.
 
Personally, I find it harder going from a harder course and then having to score low at an easy course to stay in the same index range. In the end, you still have to get the ball in the hole and I don't see a ton of difference higher or lower for most courses (barring something like an executive course).
 
JB said:
This should not impact handicap index however as slope ratings make up for the differences in difficulty.
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I am not always convinced the slope ratings are 100% accurate though.
 
JB said:
This should not impact handicap index however as slope ratings make up for the differences in difficulty.
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That's exactly the point. I usually shoot low 80s. Rating of my usual tees is 67, 12 index - 12 course handicap, add 3. Call it 82 as a standard not half bad day. If I'm playing somewhere insanely hard, yes my score is higher, but I could still be playing the same quality game...playing to my index. Say it's 72 rating, 12 index but high slope...possibly 14 course handicap, add 3....same sort of good, not super day gives me 89.

I imagine I'm wrong somehow, but that's always how I've thought of it.
 
I think it also depends on what we are calling an easy course. I think if a course is wide open off the tee people can score much lower because they aren't hitting three off the tee, or punching out of the woods. I know that when I play wide open course and you just let me hit driver as far as I can with no trouble then I will score low.
 
JB said:
Yes, however they have to shoot a lower score on the easier course to get a lower handicap than they would a marginal score on a tough course.
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Agreed, I just think that the "lower score" that you need to shoot isn't low enough to reflect a proper handicap. The slope rating does seem to have a good impact to your differential at the high end of the scale. Perhaps just not at the lower end.
 
I think it tells a decent story. Funny for me is I actually play/score better at harder courses. Probably cause I focus more instead of just grip and rip.

However on any given day a different part of my game does not show up. If i am solid off the tee, chipping or putting goes to hell. If I am weak off the tee I am usually chipping and putting well. For those reasons alone I always end up around the same score 81-82. Hence my 9.9 index.

The story it tells is I am your average everday golfer who thinks he's better than he is. Makes some decent swings throughout a round and still makes plenty of mistakes.
 
RoundersRob said:
Agreed, I just think that the "lower score" that you need to shoot isn't low enough to reflect a proper handicap. The slope rating does seem to have a good impact to your differential at the high end of the scale. Perhaps just not at the lower end.
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Slope rates the difficulty for a "bogey" golfer. Course rating is the score a "scratch" golfer should shoot on a good day. When looking at the scorecard, a bogey golfer should be very challenged if the slope rating is 135 or greater, while the scratch golfer would not find a 135 very difficult - that is - it should not raise his score very much. The scratch golfer will be more likely to look at the course rating to determine difficulty.
 
RoundersRob said:
Amateur golfers such as us have no business playing on a course set up for the US Open from the same tees that pros would use.

I get the idea of challenging yourself on a course that is set up for an event like the US Open. That's all well and good but that's also a situation you would not normally encounter. If you can't hit the ball 250 off the tee, then there's no way you should be playing a course like Bethpage Black from the tips in US Open conditions. What's the point? Just to say you did it? You aren't doing yourself or your golf game any favors other then adding a checkmark to your bucket list. The USGA slope rating only goes up to 155. Bethpage Black in US Open conditions from the tips could easily be much higher.
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Amen to that! The more expensive the resort course the more likely average golfers are to play from tees they can't handle. Nothing bothers me more when my group has to endure a 5 hour round because a bunch of bogey golfers have to play the tournament tees!! I just got back from an annual golf vacation and we had the first two tee times 6 days in a row to avoid the ego golfers playing tees they shouldn't. Our group played the middle tees since almost all were bogey golfers and the slope/yardage from the middle tees was 138/6450. We finished 5 of our six rounds in under 4 hours, some in as little as 3:25.
 
Personally, I think mine does. My home course is moderately hard and my game travels well. It is within a stroke of what it should be (maybe a stroke lower) as of right now.
 
mcook77 said:
What about a 6 footer that is conceded that you make 50% of the time? Or the 12 footer that is conceded that you make 25% of the time? How would you record those?

For these examples alone, I will not post a match play score to handicap.
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The USGA is adamant about posting match play results, and your handicap chairman should be too. Handicaps work best when everyone posts every score that is legal under USGA rules.

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TheWoo said:
Handicaps work best when everyone posts every score that is legal under USGA rules.
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Therein lies the biggest problem with the system.

This is why I like tournament play. Someone else keeps your score and the tourney people post it for you. Also, tourney scores stay on your index much longer.
 
RoundersRob said:
Therein lies the biggest problem with the system.

This is why I like tournament play. Someone else keeps your score and the tourney people post it for you. Also, tourney scores stay on your index much longer.
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I do like the tournament rating adjustment.

Lots of people who use their handicaps for friendly matches or league play never play in tournaments, so I like using all scores, but it does require some level of honesty and integrity.

Clubs with strong handicap committees and review processes do this well. But many clubs - especially highly trafficked public courses don't.

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TheWoo said:
I do like the tournament rating adjustment.

Lots of people who use their handicaps for friendly matches or league play never play in tournaments, so I like using all scores, but it does require some level of honesty and integrity.

Clubs with strong handicap committees and review processes do this well. But many clubs - especially highly trafficked public courses don't.

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Our club's handicap committee is fortunately all over the tournament rounds. Love it because the sand bagging from 30 years ago is almost non-existant. We had a guy with a 4 GHIN shoot a 68 in a tournament(73.8 rating, 132 slope) recently and his index was dropped to a 0.2, which is very close to what he is! He was pissed until I told him that the odds of shooting that score was 1 in 48,000. He would have to play 600 years to shoot a round like that as a 4 index. Even at a 0.2, his odds were one in 790! Needless to say, his reputation with most of the good golfers at our club is ruined.
 
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When this happens in the NCGA your handicap gets a big R next to it. Sandbaggers stand out like a sore thumb.
 
tahoebum said:
Our club's handicap committee is fortunately all over the tournament rounds. Love it because the sand bagging from 30 years ago is almost non-existant. We had a guy with a 4 GHIN shoot a 68 in a tournament(73.8 rating, 132 slope) recently and his index was dropped to a 0.2, which is very close to what he is! He was pissed until I told him that the odds of shooting that score was 1 in 48,000. He would have to play 600 years to shoot a round like that as a 4 index. Even at a 0.2, his odds were one in 790! Needless to say, his reputation with most of the good golfers at our club is ruined.
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That's awesome. The tournament revision works because it requires you to shoot statistically unrealistic rounds twice. And, I believe sandbagging is an unfortunate term that let's us all get by without calling one what they really are: cheaters.

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TheWoo said:
That's awesome. The tournament revision works because it requires you to shoot statistically unrealistic rounds twice. And, I believe sandbagging is an unfortunate term that let's us all get by without calling one what they really are: cheaters.

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This is why I quit league bowling.
 
I don't feel as though I play often enough with a consistency to allow my handicap to tell the story. So when people ask, I generally tell on a decent day I'll score in the 90's, and better than avg day I'll go high 80's. Bad thing is that since I only play every other week or so now I'll have the occasional round that shows my non-playing and I'll put in a round in the one-teens. So if you have a competition or something where you're judged by a handicap based score, then you get a bad representation.
 
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