Every Shot Counts - Mark Broadie
- Moderator
- #27
Sounds like it all depends on what your misses are, whether it be second shots, sloppy up and downs from relatively simple areas, or putting? Is that a fair assumption to make so far?
SCC4380
New member
I like statistics so it sounds to me like an interesting book. I will get a copy when it comes out. Until then, give us a few more tidbits along the way.
- Staff
- #30
Ok, I'm getting there haha. Ooof. There really are some tough spots to stay with in this one.
I've got to the part where he moves into speaking about how to evaluate and improve your game from what was learned in the prior chapters.
The Strokes Gained discussion in terms of long game is pretty obtuse and I don't think I can really explain it with any sort of effectiveness, so I'll just say that it's worth reading. I do grasp what he's saying and it's certainly based on sound logic.
What is cool is that strokes gained does all the things that traditional stats don't. Take FIR for example. We all know that we can hit a topped ball 160 yards into the fairway, and it actually improves the FIR stat when really that is a poor shot and reduces our chances of scoring well on a hole. Or that a ball that is off the fairway 1 yard is much better than a ball that is 1 yard OB. Current stats don't really account of that, but strokes gained does.
In the end, his stats show pretty clearly that approach shots/short game shots (off the green) account for the majority of strokes gained vs the field on the PGA Tour and it's a pretty big difference compared to putting/driving. That's not to say everybody is the same. There are certainly players with very strong short games that can succeed even with a very poor long game (Luke Donald), but as a rule the approach shot/short game is king.
He also broke down how big a difference 20 yards off the tee makes for a player and it's just huge. Something like .75 strokes a round for professionals, which may not seem like much until you look at scoring averages and how they translate to dollars/rankings. .75 strokes is hundreds of thousands of dollars. In average players, that difference is even bigger.
He broke down Tiger's numbers and it was definitely interesting. In the end, he's just better than everybody everywhere it seems, but his approach shot contribute a huge amount to his overall success on Tour.
I've got to the part where he moves into speaking about how to evaluate and improve your game from what was learned in the prior chapters.
The Strokes Gained discussion in terms of long game is pretty obtuse and I don't think I can really explain it with any sort of effectiveness, so I'll just say that it's worth reading. I do grasp what he's saying and it's certainly based on sound logic.
What is cool is that strokes gained does all the things that traditional stats don't. Take FIR for example. We all know that we can hit a topped ball 160 yards into the fairway, and it actually improves the FIR stat when really that is a poor shot and reduces our chances of scoring well on a hole. Or that a ball that is off the fairway 1 yard is much better than a ball that is 1 yard OB. Current stats don't really account of that, but strokes gained does.
In the end, his stats show pretty clearly that approach shots/short game shots (off the green) account for the majority of strokes gained vs the field on the PGA Tour and it's a pretty big difference compared to putting/driving. That's not to say everybody is the same. There are certainly players with very strong short games that can succeed even with a very poor long game (Luke Donald), but as a rule the approach shot/short game is king.
He also broke down how big a difference 20 yards off the tee makes for a player and it's just huge. Something like .75 strokes a round for professionals, which may not seem like much until you look at scoring averages and how they translate to dollars/rankings. .75 strokes is hundreds of thousands of dollars. In average players, that difference is even bigger.
He broke down Tiger's numbers and it was definitely interesting. In the end, he's just better than everybody everywhere it seems, but his approach shot contribute a huge amount to his overall success on Tour.
arydolphin
GTHC!
Just got the notification that the book released today, so it's in my Kindle queue. Can't wait to dive into this one, will be some good reading on my flight down to Hilton Head next week.
cpljohnst
Go Jackets! Go Sun Devils
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I heard a 20 minute segment with the author on Sirius XM PGA Tour last night on the McGinnis and Katrek show. Interesting stuff. Going to put this on my "to read" list.
Same here. It was interesting to hear him talk about distance off the tee is better for the amateur golfer than accuracy.
- Staff
- #35
Same for pros, but even more so with ams. What I appreciate is that it's not just conjencture. He was able to actually determine that through a huge database of information he compiled. Now every time I read "I'd give up 20 yards to get it in the fairway" I can't help but think of this book and how the numbers disagree with that entirely.
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Did he say why? that's really interesting to hear
- Moderator
- #38
He gave an awesome example that really made sense to me. He said if you could have someone like Eduardo Molinari play any of your shots for you, where would you have him play them? Second shots into greens, or on the green themselves? The obvious answer for me (and subsequently Maginnes and Katrek) was hitting into greens, because he's going to hit the green very likely a larger amount of the time than us the amateur would.
His logic (and correct me if i misunderstood guys) is that you're more likely to miss the green and shoot a higher score with a long iron from the fairway than a short iron from the rough. And I guess his stats prove it for both amateurs and pros.
I got the notification from amazon that this is ready in my Kindle queue. Really looking forward to checking this out.
Philly Golf Guy
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Thanks for all the feedback on the book. I was intrigued by the article in Golf mag recently and from what I've read in this thread thus far, this is right up my alley. I will be plowing through it soon.
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T2GRN18
Active member
"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If on other hand, something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence". Bertrand Russell - British philosopher and mathematician
Vegan702
New member
- Thread starter
- #43
This book really opens up your eyes to what is really happening in your game and especially with the pros. Tiger is not the putter everyone thinks he is. Loved the anaylsis of all the tour winners over that period of time and what part of their game won the tournament for them. Only a few chapters in and can't wait to get deeper into it. I will say it does get a little dry, but it is a doable read.
arydolphin
GTHC!
I ended up plowing through this book over the past 3 days and finished it right before I went to bed last night. Anyways, a few takeaways from it:
*It can get very stat-heavy at times and I tended to gloss over some of the charts, but it's written in a way that wasn't super-hard for me to understand.
*The interesting part is that not only for pro golfers but for amateur golfers, the long game (and more specifically, approach shots) have more of an influence over the overall score than the short game does.
*I did like a number of the charts in the 2nd half of the book that showed the states for amateurs golfers that shoot 80, 90, and 100 in comparison to scratch golfers and tour pros. It helped me realize what my stats should be for my goal, which is to get to the ability where I can try to break 80 on any day.
*Interesting that for golfers that shoot 85 or above, they should focus more on GIRP (getting to a green in regulation plus one shot, so 3 shots on a par 4 or 4 shots on a par 5). Golfers at that ability level are not hitting many GIR (I think the average for 80-shooters is 7 per round and 90-shooters is 4 or 5 per round), but increasing the number of GIRP keeps a golfer away from the big numbers.
*The game section towards the end of the book was pretty cool to make practice more fun. It was much more geared around the short game than the long game though, probably because it's much easier to measure proximity to the hole on short shots and putting as opposed to long shots.
*I also enjoyed the chapter where he used the stats that he had accumulated to talk about where someone should aim off the tee if there is OB or a hazard on one side of the hole. Say that there is OB on the right side of a hole, for some golfers the best plan is to aim directly into the left rough.
*For all levels of play: distance off of the tee is more important than accuracy based on his research. He also shoots holes in the idea that people should regularly "lay up to a number" on a par 5, almost everyone will be able to get closer to the hole if their 3rd shot is as close as possible to the green.
Anyways, that's all I have for now, and I may go back and read some sections of the book again. I enjoyed the book, and am going to take some of the ideas presented and apply them to my practice and course management this year.
*It can get very stat-heavy at times and I tended to gloss over some of the charts, but it's written in a way that wasn't super-hard for me to understand.
*The interesting part is that not only for pro golfers but for amateur golfers, the long game (and more specifically, approach shots) have more of an influence over the overall score than the short game does.
*I did like a number of the charts in the 2nd half of the book that showed the states for amateurs golfers that shoot 80, 90, and 100 in comparison to scratch golfers and tour pros. It helped me realize what my stats should be for my goal, which is to get to the ability where I can try to break 80 on any day.
*Interesting that for golfers that shoot 85 or above, they should focus more on GIRP (getting to a green in regulation plus one shot, so 3 shots on a par 4 or 4 shots on a par 5). Golfers at that ability level are not hitting many GIR (I think the average for 80-shooters is 7 per round and 90-shooters is 4 or 5 per round), but increasing the number of GIRP keeps a golfer away from the big numbers.
*The game section towards the end of the book was pretty cool to make practice more fun. It was much more geared around the short game than the long game though, probably because it's much easier to measure proximity to the hole on short shots and putting as opposed to long shots.
*I also enjoyed the chapter where he used the stats that he had accumulated to talk about where someone should aim off the tee if there is OB or a hazard on one side of the hole. Say that there is OB on the right side of a hole, for some golfers the best plan is to aim directly into the left rough.
*For all levels of play: distance off of the tee is more important than accuracy based on his research. He also shoots holes in the idea that people should regularly "lay up to a number" on a par 5, almost everyone will be able to get closer to the hole if their 3rd shot is as close as possible to the green.
Anyways, that's all I have for now, and I may go back and read some sections of the book again. I enjoyed the book, and am going to take some of the ideas presented and apply them to my practice and course management this year.
P.J.
Active member
Nice rundown Ary. I'm sold. I've always thought the key to my scores was my GIR. Seems the way I go about increasing that number needs to be researched though...
arydolphin
GTHC!
To a certain extent, GIR are still pretty important in terms of lowering your score. But as handicap goes up, it's not the only thing that you can look at to figure out how good of a ballstriker you are. For example, his stats for an 80-shooter is 7 GIR and 15.4 GIRP, whereas with an 85-shooter, it's 5.3 GIR and 13.8 GIRP. Last year, I averaged 6 GIR but I would guess that my GIRP was closer to an 85-shooter than an 80-shooter.
Here's the entire chart of GIR vs GIRP:
cpljohnst
Go Jackets! Go Sun Devils
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Great stuff right here. Big numbers and I have been friends for far too long. Time to break up. I need to concentrate on this GIRP stat. Course management plays a role here and is something I need to pay attention to. Have to get this stat better.
Did he mention what GIRP an 80 shooter should look for?
Edit: I see you put the stats in the follow-up post. Thanks!
arydolphin
GTHC!
I'm not 100% sure on this, but it seems like the author came up with GIRP as a stat on his own.
One other thing about the book: for Tiger fans like myself, there is a section in the book looking at Tiger's stats between 2004 and 2012 where he was the #1 player in the world for the majority of that time. Compared to other pros, he was leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else on tour with his approach shots in terms of proximity to the hole. There are lots of people that like to say that he was the best putter out there, and while his putting stats were pretty good at times, a bigger part of his success is that he hit so many approach shots close and allowed him to make more birdie putts.