Going to Graphite Shafts

[JB]

These last three posts all support the "health benefit" aspects of graphite shafts and by default, supports the argument that this was their primary purpose.

-JP

Yet the experts inside the industry say that it was merely a wonderful side effect that has come to be after the fact. I take Migraine preventative care that works extremely well. This drug was first brought to market for a completely different reason and yet when tested found to help prevent migraines. Because it works does that mean that it is the reason that it was done? of course not.

I think I will stick with the people who work for the graphite companies and their explanation.

 

[JPsuff]

Yet the experts inside the industry say that it was merely a wonderful side effect that has come to be after the fact. I take Migraine preventative care that works extremely well. This drug was first brought to market for a completely different reason and yet when tested found to help prevent migraines. Because it works does that mean that it is the reason that it was done? of course not.

I think I will stick with the people who work for the graphite companies and their explanation.

And Ill stick with what I've read in every article written about graphite for the last twenty-five years. :clapp:

Really JB, did you think that this would end in any other way?



-JP

 

[SeeMoreGuy]

The short time I have been golfing I have always heard from club fitters that graphite shafts were for slower swing speeds. Getting an extral 3 or 4 miles per hour for a slower swinger improves their distance. I have owned a set of graphite shaft clubs and compared to some steel shafts I have, the primary difference I could feel was the lighter shaft and thus a faster swing speed. I think people have attributed the lighter shafts being for older people or those with health issues but I dont see that as being the case. I would play them anytime. Just my 2 cents.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Advantage of graphite shafts over steel is from a design standpoint. As earlier stated, graphite shafts are manufactured from multiple layers of carbon fiber. Each layer can be a different modulus (strength) material and can be applied at different angles to contribute independently to the stiffness or reduction in twisting along the length of the shaft. This allows graphite shaft manufactures almost limitless possibilities in new designs.

Because of the various materials able to be used in the manufacturer of the golf shaft, there is a much greater range in pricing as well. An inexpensive graphite shaft may cost $10.00, while the most expensive shaft can cost as much as $1000.00! Although most graphite shafts normally found in $10 – $90 range. Expect a club with a graphite shaft to cost more than with a steel shaft



Steel shafts are made from a single material, so creating a new model is limited to geometry changes to the shaft such as the outside diameters along its’ entire length, wall thickness, distance between each step (unless it is a stepless shaft) and usage of additional metals (such as chromium, vanadium and nickel) in the alloys

 

[Smallville]

Because of the various materials able to be used in the manufacturer of the golf shaft, there is a much greater range in pricing as well. An inexpensive graphite shaft may cost $10.00, while the most expensive shaft can cost as much as $1000.00! Although most graphite shafts normally found in $10 – $90 range. Expect a club with a graphite shaft to cost more than with a steel shaft

Yep, for sure. I usually see $200 or $300 more for the graphite iron sets.

 

[JPsuff]

Advantage of graphite shafts over steel is from a design standpoint. As earlier stated, graphite shafts are manufactured from multiple layers of carbon fiber. Each layer can be a different modulus (strength) material and can be applied at different angles to contribute independently to the stiffness or reduction in twisting along the length of the shaft. This allows graphite shaft manufactures almost limitless possibilities in new designs.

All true.

But what you've written would apply more to driver shafts than to iron shafts (though the obsession with drivers still escapes me). Do you honestly think that the average golfer is going to want to have each individual iron fitted with a graphite shaft specifically designed for that particular club?

Would any pro? Surely the pros have access to such pampering and yet about 98% of them still play steel shafts.

There has to be a reason for that.


-JP

 

[JB]

Would any pro? Surely the pros have access to such pampering and yet about 98% of them still play steel shafts.

There has to be a reason for that.


-JP

The reason that pros play steel shafts in irons is very simple. Cost and consistency. They do not have issues with swing speed or distances at all in iron play. However if you dont think that most pros switching to hybrids is partly because of more distance due to shafts, you are mistaken. Its not just the club head.

Graphite is expensive to make with serious distance consistency and people need distances dialed in far more with irons than they do with drivers. To get that done with graphite would take a whole lot of money per shaft. Graphite is made up of a few materials and the higher end graphite shafts use far less composites, hence the cost. However hitting a flier with a driver is not that big of a deal, but with a 7 iron it could cost someone a tournament.

The companies are just not putting out extreme high end iron shafts in graphite to have them make a switch. It is cost prohibitive.

 

[JPsuff]

And "consistency" is the same reason I prefer steel and is what I've been saying all along.



-JP

 

[JB]

And "consistency" is the same reason I prefer steel and is what I've been saying all along.



-JP

Great, you prefer steel. Just like many others prefer graphite. its a preference and everybody can make their own. There is not something superior one way or the other.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Are Tickets going to be avil?

 

[JPsuff]

Great, you prefer steel. Just like many others prefer graphite. its a preference and everybody can make their own. There is not something superior one way or the other.

No, it's more than just preference. There is a definable difference between graphite and steel in terms of consistency and steel wins out because of it so the "everyone's a winner" philosophy doesn't really apply in this case.

That happens sometimes.


-JP

 

[JB]

No, it's more than just preference. There is a definable difference between graphite and steel in terms of consistency and steel wins out because of it so the "everyone's a winner" philosophy doesn't really apply in this case.

That happens sometimes.


-JP

So in that case, anybody that plays graphite in irons must be WRONG. That is just not the case. Not everybody plays graphite for health reasons. Some like the feel of the club better.

That must mean that steel is REALLY Bad in woods and hybrids. I mean REALLY BAD. As you said, nobody on tour is playing steel in their driver, so it must come down to graphite being better for them for some reason or another.

Their is not a definable difference for some people. It comes down to cost and manufacturers. There are millions of golfers that prefer hitting graphite in their irons. So all of those must be making the wrong choice huh?

It is not a black and white argument that you seem to want to make it. If your swing speed is slower than that of a tour pro, for many players, there will never be a consistency issue. Because they will not see an inconsistency between the two shafts. You seem to think or know that they will, and there are millions that play them that will point out, that it is not correct.

 

[dynarider]

I I think the stigma of graphite is a myth that has almost run its course.

Don't we wish that were the case? Unfortunately you still have the cavemen declaring crap like "before you give in & play graphite" which somehow infers that anyone playing graphite shafts is an inferior golfer not vapable of playing with real clubs.

So in that case, anybody that plays graphite in irons must be WRONG. That is just not the case. Not everybody plays graphite for health reasons. Some like the feel of the club better.

Too bad some folks can't wrap their head around this.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Don't we wish that were the case? Unfortunately you still have the cavemen declaring crap like "before you give in & play graphite" which somehow infers that anyone playing graphite shafts is an inferior golfer not vapable of playing with real clubs.




Too bad some folks can't wrap their head around this.

Sorry to bust your bubble,but there is a different kind of ball flight with graphite vs steel .That is my reason for claiming to try nippon with pro soft inserts before giving in to graphite. Nothing wrong with graphite,but steel offers the preferred ball flight.

I know of 1 golfer who carries a +3 handicap who plays graphite and must play it due to the vibration issues.He even admits how he had to change his swing to obtain the ball flight needed to continue to compete at his level.

Graphite has it's advantages,but for serious golfers it doesn't perform the same in irons. I've seen it and fitted hundreds of people and seen the difference in flight.Graphite offers a flatter more penetrating flight vs steel ,hence the father flight..

 

[Sean]

Sorry to bust your bubble,but there is a different kind of ball flight with graphite vs steel .That is my reason for claiming to try nippon with pro soft inserts before giving in to graphite. Nothing wrong with graphite,but steel offers the preferred ball flight.

I know of 1 golfer who carries a +3 handicap who plays graphite and must play it due to the vibration issues.He even admits how he had to change his swing to obtain the ball flight needed to continue to compete at his level.

Graphite has it's advantages,but for serious golfers it doesn't perform the same in irons. I've seen it and fitted hundreds of people and seen the difference in flight.Graphite offers a flatter more penetrating flight vs steel ,hence the father flight..

Just because I'm not a + HI doesn't mean I'm not a serious golfer. I've tried a number of different shafts, some with inserts and some not, I've tried soft grips, the Bionic glove, and nothing worked. I missed two months of an already short season last year because of elbow issues. My pro and my doctor suggested graphite. I AM a serious golfer. I play graphite.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

I wasn't refering to you about the difference of the two shafts.

I didn't mean to imply anything about your skill level.Wasn't my intention,I just use him as an example of the difference between ball flights of the two.

Have you noticed a difference or have you not had the new shafts long enough to determine?

 

[dynarider]

Graphite has it's advantages,but for serious golfers it doesn't perform the same in irons.

Just because I'm not a + HI doesn't mean I'm not a serious golfer.

I AM a serious golfer. I play graphite.

I wasn't refering to you about the difference of the two shafts.

I didn't mean to imply anything about your skill level.Wasn't my intention,I just use him as an example of the difference between ball flights of the two.

You flat out posted serious golfers won't use graphite, how is this being mis interpreted????

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Serious competeive golfers who play for serious money,nationwide,gateway,hooters,pepsi tours.there is a drastic difference. Plus ,you are reading more then is posted.. you are taking this personally.

I never refered to either of your skill levels.

Just cause a person has to play graphite doesn't mean you don't have any game,I never said that,you implied it.This person who plays it has to or he/she can't play the game.We wouldn't want that,would we?

You believe in what you like and I'll believe in the results.Ball flight doesn't lie.

Now,I'm going to imply,By your comments you also imply I state women can't play just cause of their graphite irons.Never once did I say that,Plus their are a ton of ladies who would kick my arse on the course,even in my prime career

 

[Sean]

I wasn't refering to you about the difference of the two shafts.

I didn't mean to imply anything about your skill level.Wasn't my intention,I just use him as an example of the difference between ball flights of the two.

Have you noticed a difference or have you not had the new shafts long enough to determine?

I've been able to play one round and I definitely notice a difference in my elbows. I also hit the ball better and it felt better coming off the club face. I was pleasantly surprised. But then again, I've only been able to play one round.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

I've been able to play one round and I definitely notice a difference in my elbows. I also hit the ball better and it felt better coming off the club face. I was pleasantly surprised. But then again, I've only been able to play one round.

Fill me in when you have more time under your belt with the new shafts

 

[JPsuff]

So in that case, anybody that plays graphite in irons must be WRONG. That is just not the case. Not everybody plays graphite for health reasons. Some like the feel of the club better.

That must mean that steel is REALLY Bad in woods and hybrids. I mean REALLY BAD. As you said, nobody on tour is playing steel in their driver, so it must come down to graphite being better for them for some reason or another.

Their is not a definable difference for some people. It comes down to cost and manufacturers. There are millions of golfers that prefer hitting graphite in their irons. So all of those must be making the wrong choice huh?

It is not a black and white argument that you seem to want to make it. If your swing speed is slower than that of a tour pro, for many players, there will never be a consistency issue. Because they will not see an inconsistency between the two shafts. You seem to think or know that they will, and there are millions that play them that will point out, that it is not correct.

Why are you looking to pick a fight on this?

Did I say that anyone who plays graphite is wrong for everyone?

No.

In fact, what I wrote was:

I have no problem with any of that and I would never tell anyone not to use a graphite shaft in their irons. All I'm saying is that for me, I don't see the consistency and the control being better (or in many cases even just equal) to that of steel, so that's why I stay with steel.​

How does that translate into my saying that graphite is wrong?


Did I say that graphite was bad in woods?

No.

In fact, though I never actually came out and said so in so many words, I think it's quite clear that I agree with the majority of the golf world in believing that as far as drivers and woods are concerned, graphite shaft technology has come along to a point at which it surpasses steel. In fact, I personally haven't used a steel shaft in either a driver, fairway wood or hybrid in over five years and I have no plans for doing so.


On "Definable Difference":

There may indeed be no "definable difference for some people", but that doesn't mean that there's no definable difference at all and the fact that most who play the pro tours along with most skilled amateurs prefer steel shafts in their irons proves that, so it's not just "my" opinion.

As far as a "Black and White" argument goes, as far as iron shafts are concerned it certainly seems to be pretty much "Black and White". The statistical usage of steel shafts versus graphite shafts for irons by pros and skilled amateurs proves that the overwhelming majority of such players prefer steel over graphite and the most quoted reason why is "consistency".

I'm certainly not making that up and you know that.

When the discussion includes all players, including the high double-digit handicappers as well as the hobbyists, then yes, the statistics may indeed skew a considerable amount and "preference" may indeed rule the day.

But my statements refer to the empirical differences between a graphite shaft and a steel shaft for an iron golf club and empirically, steel is more consistent and therefore in more demand as a shaft of choice by better players -- the ones who can actually appreciate the difference.


-JP

 

[JB]

No, it's more than just preference. There is a definable difference between graphite and steel in terms of consistency and steel wins out because of it so the "everyone's a winner" philosophy doesn't really apply in this case.

That happens sometimes.


-JP

Nobody is looking to pick a fight. But this last comment is not really what you are implying in your next post. In fact I believe you are wrong. Because ask people who play graphite and THEY believe they are a winner in that case. It is about preference despite that you may not want to believe that. For most professionals, the cost prohibits it from being a preference. But just about any amateur, it is about preference for THEIR game. Have you ever tried graphite irons?

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Nobody is looking to pick a fight. But this last comment is not really what you are implying in your next post. In fact I believe you are wrong. Because ask people who play graphite and THEY believe they are a winner in that case. It is about preference despite that you may not want to believe that. For most professionals, the cost prohibits it from being a preference. But just about any amateur, it is about preference for THEIR game.

How could this be true?They don't even have to pay for anything equipment wise.The Oem's will do just about anything for their tour players.Look at mike weir,who gets special prototype irons made just for him.Those cost a pretty penny to mill for him.approx 50K just for his irons

 

[JB]

How could this be true?They don't even have to pay for anything equipment wise.The Oem's will do just about anything for their tour players.Look at mike weir,who gets special prototype irons made just for him.Those cost a pretty penny to mill for him.approx 50K just for his irons

The shaft company's do not manufacture shafts at certain levels because of cost. It has very little to do with the OEMs.

FTR - Mike Weir was playing R9 TP's at Doral when we saw him. In fact in speaking with him, he asks about a set of irons that they do not make for Lefties and they told him they could not do it. We actually have it on video.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

The shaft company's do not manufacture shafts at certain levels because of cost. It has very little to do with the OEMs.

FTR - Mike Weir was playing R9 TP's at Doral when we saw him. In fact in speaking with him, he asks about a set of irons that they do not make for Lefties and they told him they could not do it. We actually have it on video.

Look close at his irons,yes they are badge R9's and don't look like any other R9 iron avil. Eric Axley played a set of satin MB's that are not avil for lefty's