That article explicitly states that there is little to no difference between the old grooves and new grooves from the fairway. If the new grooves cause less spin, what explains this?
Wedge grooves and spin?
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That article explicitly states that there is little to no difference between the old grooves and new grooves from the fairway. If the new grooves cause less spin, what explains this?
The bolded is true. Very true.
In all honestly, I don't notice "extra spin" on last year's used wedges versus new wedges. Honestly. I believe it's mental. Technique, lie, and ball matter more than the wedge's age.
Wilson Staffer
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Wow I learn something new every day about this frustrating but fun sport.
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http://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2014/5/to-go-milled-or-not-milled
I've posted this before, but grooves tested off even a clean lie do effect spin. But in this test the difference between a normal wedge and a smoothed face wedge was 200 rpm. Not enough to make any discernible difference in your balls flight and/or landing.
Also, the third club in this test had no grooves and milling and had the lowest spin numbers (400 rpm lower than the standard wedge). Which seems to indicate that milling hurt the spin numbers by minimizing the surface area that came into contact with the ball. If this is the case, you could argue that grooves may be responsible for 400 rpm's difference as the standard wedge had milling and grooves. So if the milling took away some rpm's, the grooves would account for the full 400 rpm difference across the clubs and not just the 200 between the smoothed face and standard. But this is also one test, and hardly the end all be all.
I've posted this before, but grooves tested off even a clean lie do effect spin. But in this test the difference between a normal wedge and a smoothed face wedge was 200 rpm. Not enough to make any discernible difference in your balls flight and/or landing.
Also, the third club in this test had no grooves and milling and had the lowest spin numbers (400 rpm lower than the standard wedge). Which seems to indicate that milling hurt the spin numbers by minimizing the surface area that came into contact with the ball. If this is the case, you could argue that grooves may be responsible for 400 rpm's difference as the standard wedge had milling and grooves. So if the milling took away some rpm's, the grooves would account for the full 400 rpm difference across the clubs and not just the 200 between the smoothed face and standard. But this is also one test, and hardly the end all be all.
YetiLooper
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- #56
So in theory a grooved wedge with no milling would have the most spin of the 4 variations.
YetiLooper
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- #57
As for drivers... I used to have a SMT Nemesis which had no grooves at all. That driver was long!
Golf 'N Gator
Formally HoosierGolfer
I have. When I gamed the Callaway Jaw's wedges with square grooves, they were ball cover eaters.
Grooves still don't grab the ball and spin it. I have a hard believing that scuffs on Golf balls are because of interaction with the grooves.
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- #60
There is some really interesting information in here.
Remember when drivers all had grooves across the entire face? Or the new Bridgestone driver with micro grooves? Do you think grooves on a driver increased the spin?
Remember when drivers all had grooves across the entire face? Or the new Bridgestone driver with micro grooves? Do you think grooves on a driver increased the spin?
JRod
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I always thought those scuffs came from interaction with trees and/or cart paths...
I thought that the grooves on drivers were purely for aesthetics with maybe small ancillary benefits for alignment aid. the micro thinness of the faces would render the inclusion of any substantial depth in a groove all but impossible. at least I think I read that.
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Golf 'N Gator
Formally HoosierGolfer
How many drivers have grooves in the sweet spot? Drivers have grooves because as golfers we expect to see grooves when we look down at a golf club.
Oh boy. This should be enough to make you never trust Livestrong again.
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Formally HoosierGolfer
Then you never gamed the Jaws wedges or the X Forged before those from Callaway. You can believe what you want, but I used a tee more than once to remove pieces of the ball cover out of the grooves on these wedges and threw more than one ball away because of them.
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Formally HoosierGolfer
I Tweeted Roger Cleveland a few minutes ago about this thread. I know he is traveling, but he might reply. I'm interested in his thoughts. If he replies, I'll post a link.
Every bit of science says what I "believe" is correct grooves do not grab the ball and spin it.
The Bridgestone 715 and Srixon 545/745 have grooves on the sweet spot, both of which are of noticeable texture when running your fingers over them (not just painted on).
Right from Bridgestone's website:
- Power Milled face provides incredible spin reduction
Golf 'N Gator
Formally HoosierGolfer
That may be, but like I stated, I know what the square grooves of the wedges I mentioned could/did do to some balls when I gamed them.
Don't have that issue with my current wedges which are brand new this week.
Hopefully Roger Cleveland can put this one to sleep.
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So what do the grooves do to cause the added spin in the science based test conducted that I posted above by Andrew Rice?
I will have to read his study more thoroughly.
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- #75
Okay, the back and forth is fun, but maybe this will help people.
Do wedge grooves cause spin? Yes and No. Sharp deep lines CAN increase friction enough to see a small amount on clean contact.
They do not however directly spin the ball. THe deeper the grooves, the more it can "clean the face" so that clean contact is available for the golf ball. This is why the groove rule was put in place to make being in the rough more penal as the previous grooves eliminated much of that issue.
Grooves (like anything else) where down and because of that slightly close andchannel less debris which creates less spin. Clean sharp grooves whisk away far more than dull, less deep grooves. Now this all assumes clean contact. To give you an example of how the PM grind with unconventional grooves works is that when opening up the wedge, many times contact is made higher and towards the toe and having grooves out there to pull sand and grass away to give you metal on metal contact is important to not have a flyer or knuckle ball.
Milling is aesthetics for the most part, but grooves are very important and there are subtle differences between companies. Now with all of that said, contact is extremely important and will be the number one factor, followed by ball type and of course the clubs used. All combined make up how much spin is imparted on the golf ball.
As to the reason that urethane or surlyn ends up in the grooves is quite simple. THe cover is soft, the friction is real and the grooves are doing what they are supposed to do. Pull debris away. No different than getting grass out of the grooves or sand out of the grooves, which we all have to do on a regular basis.
Do wedge grooves cause spin? Yes and No. Sharp deep lines CAN increase friction enough to see a small amount on clean contact.
They do not however directly spin the ball. THe deeper the grooves, the more it can "clean the face" so that clean contact is available for the golf ball. This is why the groove rule was put in place to make being in the rough more penal as the previous grooves eliminated much of that issue.
Grooves (like anything else) where down and because of that slightly close andchannel less debris which creates less spin. Clean sharp grooves whisk away far more than dull, less deep grooves. Now this all assumes clean contact. To give you an example of how the PM grind with unconventional grooves works is that when opening up the wedge, many times contact is made higher and towards the toe and having grooves out there to pull sand and grass away to give you metal on metal contact is important to not have a flyer or knuckle ball.
Milling is aesthetics for the most part, but grooves are very important and there are subtle differences between companies. Now with all of that said, contact is extremely important and will be the number one factor, followed by ball type and of course the clubs used. All combined make up how much spin is imparted on the golf ball.
As to the reason that urethane or surlyn ends up in the grooves is quite simple. THe cover is soft, the friction is real and the grooves are doing what they are supposed to do. Pull debris away. No different than getting grass out of the grooves or sand out of the grooves, which we all have to do on a regular basis.
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