Slow Play Suggestions

[JPsuff]

this certainly has been an entertaining read....thanks to all for putting their opinions out there and thanks to JP for helping with my word of the day!

so here's my opinion on the last few pages of banter:

seem as though JP finds walkers to be more serious golfers. i prefer to walk if i can, it's just my cup of tea, does it make me any more serious about my game on that particular day? nope! i tend to take my game seriously whether i'm riding, walking, playing in spiring, fall, winter or summer. i'm still not sure if i'm a serious golfer in his book, but then again i really don't care.

i also want to say that i find JP's perspective on things interesting and refreshing for the most part, but i have to say that i believe your stance here is way too extreme. i hate to be the one to tell you but living in the mountains, it's just not feasible to walk many of the courses. they tend to build courses around here that offer spectacular views so most courses are cut on ridge, on the sides of ridges and peaks and it would be virtually impossible to walk. i also find your comments about blades and GI irons offensive. i'm glad you can go out and hit blades, mishit them, but at least know that you mishit them. guess what? i know when i mishit my GI irons, you want to know how? b/c i take my game serioulsy and i've put in a lot of hard work and time on my game. it pains me to say this but it's b/c of golfers like you that i don't post my hcp here (at least my real one). i feel that you would be far too judgemental about what's in my bag, how thick my toplines are, and how huge my shovels are compared to quality of golfer that i happen to be.

i know that you have your opinions, your beliefs, your customs and your ways concerning this game and i can respect that, but it's a completely biased view. you've put yourself up on a pedestal and i have a feeling that you didn't want to, but that's just the way that it comes across.

Good post, TC. Lots of good points and some things to think about, so here's what I think:

this certainly has been an entertaining read....thanks to all for putting their opinions out there and thanks to JP for helping with my word of the day!

No problem, glad I could help!

so here's my opinion on the last few pages of banter:seem as though JP finds walkers to be more serious golfers. i prefer to walk if i can, it's just my cup of tea, does it make me any more serious about my game on that particular day? nope! i tend to take my game seriously whether i'm riding, walking, playing in spiring, fall, winter or summer.

Not quite.

When I wrote what I wrote, I knew that it was going to be misunderstood but I assumed that subsequent posts would be able to clear it up. That obviously didn’t happen and things have come to the point where many are assuming that I said that riders are not serious golfers and that is not what I wrote.
What I wrote was: “walkers as a group tend to take the game more seriously than riders overall”

This was perhaps an unfortunate choice of words but the key word is “overall”. What I meant by this statement was simply this: Both Walkers and Riders can claim serious golfers in their ranks. But those who aren’t serious or who are not “there just to play golf” tend to take carts more often than choosing to walk, therefore walkers tend to be more serious than riders overall.

Most people who play golf for reasons other than “serious reasons”; for example to hang out and party with their friends, to kill an afternoon doing something different, to try golf for the hell of it, the “Happy Gilmore” types, the once or twice a year “outings”, the “never tried it before” types and so on, more often than not tend to take to the course in carts rather than on foot because most such casual players can’t see any real fun in walking for almost five miles.
Conversely, people who don’t mind such a walk tend to be there because they really want to do this “golf thing” and are – by extension – more serious about playing golf for the sake of golf and not for all of the other reasons.
But that in no way (or at least in no intended way) means that there are no serious golfers who ride in carts. Hell, one of the best golf buddies (and best golfers) I ever played with was primarily a cart guy and I was right there riding along with him when he felt like taking a cart. It’s just that carts are attractive to “everyone else” as well and that (for better or worse) skews the number of “non-serious” players into the ranks of cart-users. So when I look at the overall population of cart-users, I tend to see more “non-serious” people there than I do pulling or carrying a golf bag.

Do you understand what I’m saying?

i also find your comments about blades and GI irons offensive. i'm glad you can go out and hit blades, mishit them, but at least know that you mishit them. guess what? i know when i mishit my GI irons, you want to know how? b/c i take my game serioulsy and i've put in a lot of hard work and time on my game. it pains me to say this but it's b/c of golfers like you that i don't post my hcp here (at least my real one). i feel that you would be far too judgemental about what's in my bag, how thick my toplines are, and how huge my shovels are compared to quality of golfer that i happen to be.

That’s the second time that some has claimed to be “offended” by my comments about blades. What is there to be offended about? I happen to like blades over GI clubs because I see a certain “virtuoso” aspect to them and that’s my opinion (See “Word of the day”, Post #176). If you liked the color red and I didn’t, would you be offended? On the other hand if I said something like: “People who play GI clubs are idiots”, NOW you should be offended, but of course I said no such thing.
I have an affinity for blades because when I was introduced to golf in 1968 that’s all there was. So either you could hit blades or you went bowling (and when I was learning there was often no difference between the two, but that’s another story).

As far as my being judgmental, maybe you’re right, I do tend to get that way sometimes. But isn’t that just another way of saying that I have my own opinions about things? As far as what’s in someone’s golf bag goes, I’m sorry to disappoint you, but I really couldn’t care less. You play the clubs you like and I play the ones I like and that’s the end of it. But you sound as if you think that if I was paired with someone who wasn’t carrying blades that I’d ask the starter to move me to a different group and that’s ridiculous.

i know that you have your opinions, your beliefs, your customs and your ways concerning this game and i can respect that, but it's a completely biased view. you've put yourself up on a pedestal and i have a feeling that you didn't want to, but that's just the way that it comes across.

Well if it wasn’t biased, then it wouldn’t be an opinion, would it?
As for the pedestal, perhaps I sometimes build one now and then, but I find that most of the time people tend to build one for me and I really can't see why. I suppose I should be flattered, but is what I have to say really all that important? I’m just one of millions of people on the ‘net who has an opinion and we all know what they say about opinions. But if someone wants to take issue with something I've written, I’m totally down for that.

It’s a great way to break up an otherwise boring day. :thumb:



-JP

 

[chilly]

I'm pretty ADHD, so waiting around for people in front of me is very tough. I have zero issue with a group of new golfers or just plain high handicappers that take awhile to get around, but when I see people moseying from shot to shot or not playing ready golf, it does piss me off. Worst is when folks in a cart drive from ball to ball instead of one getting out and playing ready golf, that one kills me. Most of it is just common sense, things like parking the cart in a place that lets you exit the green on the way to the next hole instead of going back to get it...if a group doesn't do these things I will ask to play through or make it very clear that they're holding me up. That said, I find a lot of times that folks will let me play through almost immediately after I catch them, etiquette isn't too bad in my area in that regard.

 

[Ty_Webb]

Wow. Quite a lot to get into here. First up, I think JP has been treated pretty unfairly on this one. When he said the thing about walkers being more likely to be serious golfers than riders, he went to some lengths to explain that what he meant was the less serious golfers (my definition of a serious golfer would be one who cares most about his or her score. A not serious golfer would be someone who is out there for some other reason such as a company day or to have a beer or to hang with his friends, where the golf is something that happens to go on as well. I would go so far as to say there are no non-serious golfers on this site or any other golf forum) were more likely to ride than walk. I don't think anyone would argue that. There are serious golfers who ride and serious golfers who walk. There are non-serious golfers who ride and there are non-serious golfers who walk. Given that the non-serious golfers are more likely to ride, then riders are more likely to be non-serious golfers. That's not the same as saying riders are non-serious golfers. It's also not the same as saying walkers are serious golfers. Simple (I hope) as that.

As to the riding versus walking thing. If, as JB says, clubs renting out carts is a financial decision because it makes play faster and they wouldn't do it otherwise because of the overheads involved with buying the carts and upkeep and so on, then why is it that some clubs that have carts allow walkers? If that were the case, play would be slower, they'd have the upkeep and none of the benefits. Also, I think an explanation is required as to why somewhere like Bethpage, which has a plentiful supply of carts to be used on the red, green, yellow and blue courses doesn't permit them on the black. They've paid for the carts, why wouldn't they want to allow carts on the black course. If it really makes play faster, why would they ban them from the black? Wouldn't they rather get more people round? I don't understand this one at all.

I would also add that a lot of people have been comparing how quickly one person riding will play with one person walking. That's a no-brainer. Of course the rider is going to go faster than the walker. If, however, you compare two people riding in one cart with two people walking, I think it comes a lot closer. And if there are hold ups from the game in front then the walkers will be quicker. Here's why. Walkers tee off then walk to their balls. The group in front are on the green, so they wait. The two riders tee off and drive to one of their balls and wait for the group in front. The group clears the green. Now the rider whose ball they drove to is ready to play, so he plays. The walker who is playing first plays at the same point. Then, as soon as he's hit the second walker is playing. The first rider then has to clean his club and stick it in his bag, then get in the cart, then drive to the other guy's ball, where he then starts deciding what club he's going to hit, then stretching a bit cos he's been sitting down for a while. Then he finally plays. By which time the two walkers are up by the green. I've experienced this sort of thing first hand. Playing in a three ball where the other two are in the cart and I'm walking and I spent most of the time waiting for them, not the other way around.

The other thing is back home in England, there are practically no carts. The pace of play at my club is 2hrs 45 mins for two balls and 3hrs 30 mins for four balls. When I play here and there are carts everywhere, it takes 5 hours + to play. Take from that what you will. I think a large part of it is cultural, but I struggle to believe that the difference is two hours from people playing more slowly here and 30 minutes the other way from the carts being quicker. I think it's more likely that people play an hour slower here and that walking is faster than riding - if everyone plays properly.

Couple more things. One, JP I think it was said he didn't understand the mentality of waiting all week to play golf then trying to get it over with as quickly as possible. I look at that more as the thing I look forward to all week is playing golf. Not watching the people in front of me play golf.

Two, these days I'd rather be waiting on people in front than not, because more often than not if I'm not waiting it's because we're lagging behind and if we're lagging behind, then I feel the need to rush to keep up and I don't like rushing. I can't help myself though. If I'm playing with someone who dithers, I feel the responsibility to make that up.

Finally, the things that I think cause slow play:

- Putting your bag down on the wrong side of the green (if you're riding, then this equates to when you bring more than one club with you). The number of times I see people put their stuff down on the opposite side of the hole from the next tee.

- Waiting until it's your turn to read putts, look up yardages, pick clubs etc.

- Three practice swings, then change club, then three more practice swings. Just *%^$ing hit it alright?

Playing at a reasonable pace boils down to two things really. One, use common sense and two, be ready to play when it's your turn. That's it. No need to run or rush or anything.

 

[Ty_Webb]

Oops, forgot to say. I play better when I walk I think because the steps help me to feel the rhythm and tempo of my swing. I haven't actually recorded my scores or anything, but I feel like I'm a couple of shots better on foot than in a cart, unless there's something like oppressive heat to offset it.

That and I think if a course is easily walkable and you're young enough and fit enough to walk, but ride, then you're definitely lazy. I include myself in that too. When I ride, it's often because I'm being lazy. When I was a kid, anyone even using a pull cart would get ribbed senseless for being lazy and not carrying their bag.

Last one this time (at least I think it is), JB seems to get up in arms about someone judging someone by appearance when they're riding a cart, but that's not judging someone by appearance. It's judging them for the choices they make. In the same way as if you see someone on the street with a swastika tattooed on their forehead, you're not judging them for their appearance, but you (or I imagine most people) are judging them because they made the choice to tattoo that on their forehead. Before anyone wigs out, I'm not comparing riding a cart with wearing a swastika tattoo (which, judging by some of the reactions in this thread to JP's stuff is exactly what people will think I'm doing)

 

[TC]

great points ty! i also want to thank JP for his response. i do appreciate your willingness to explain yourself and everything you said makes complete sense and i am glad that you shared your opinions on the matter.

i think that culture is a huge part of it. i think that courses in the UK are much more set up for walkers and i would def. be walking, but i also think it's important to recognize that a lot of courses over there will not let you play unless you take a general knowledge test. is it a tough test/quiz whatever you want to call it? probably not, but at least the golfer has to have some knowledge of how to be courteous and prepared.

i was subjected to an awfully long round yesterday. the course was full, and it was brutal watching the 3 some in front of us. 2 of the 3 were obviously better golfers but the 3rd guy continue to hit ball after ball all over the place. he'd tee off, slice the piss out of it, then tee up another and another. he easily lost 4 balls off of every tee. but rather than just going on and dropping one in the fwy near his playing partners, he hit until one was in play. i don't think he was concerned with his scoring or anything so it was tough to watch. we'd comment after he'd hit one that he'd dig into that pocket for another ball, and sure enough, he did.

there's no way to stop this epidemic other than through education, and it seems as though the model in europe is one we should be copying here.

 

[JPsuff]

Thank you Ty for interpreting what I wrote and explaining it in a way that perhaps I was unable to and thank you TC for understanding that I was not trying to insult anyone.


So, are we all friends again or what? :thumb:


-JP

 

[TC]

Thank you Ty for interpreting what I wrote and explaining it in a way that perhaps I was unable to and thank you TC for understanding that I was not trying to insult anyone.


So, are we all friends again or what? :thumb:




-JP

of course, never thought that we were not friends.

 

[Rancho_Golfer]

I would also add that a lot of people have been comparing how quickly one person riding will play with one person walking. That's a no-brainer. Of course the rider is going to go faster than the walker. If, however, you compare two people riding in one cart with two people walking, I think it comes a lot closer. And if there are hold ups from the game in front then the walkers will be quicker. Here's why. Walkers tee off then walk to their balls. The group in front are on the green, so they wait. The two riders tee off and drive to one of their balls and wait for the group in front. The group clears the green. Now the rider whose ball they drove to is ready to play, so he plays. The walker who is playing first plays at the same point. Then, as soon as he's hit the second walker is playing. The first rider then has to clean his club and stick it in his bag, then get in the cart, then drive to the other guy's ball, where he then starts deciding what club he's going to hit, then stretching a bit cos he's been sitting down for a while. Then he finally plays. By which time the two walkers are up by the green. I've experienced this sort of thing first hand. Playing in a three ball where the other two are in the cart and I'm walking and I spent most of the time waiting for them, not the other way around.


lagging behind and if we're lagging behind, then I feel the need to rush to keep up and I don't like rushing. I can't help myself though. If I'm playing with someone who dithers, I feel the responsibility to make that up.

The riders could have been more efficient. They could have dropped the first hitter off at his ball and the other rider could have gone on to prepare for his shot while waiting for the green to clear. When the first rider is picked up, he just hops into the cart and they proceed to the next shot. He waits until then to put his clubs away and choose his next clubs if he knows what he'll be using.

I don't care if people are serious about golf or not. What matters is if they have the knowledge on how to efficiently maneuver around the course. Walkers don't have to think about it too much until they reach the green and figure out where to leave their bag. Cart riders have more to think about. Dropping 1 player off then the other goes to their ball. Pick the other up and wait until they get to the next shot to put their clubs away. If 1 player is off the green, where to drop them off and who takes the cart.

 

[Ty_Webb]

The riders could have been more efficient. They could have dropped the first hitter off at his ball and the other rider could have gone on to prepare for his shot while waiting for the green to clear. When the first rider is picked up, he just hops into the cart and they proceed to the next shot. He waits until then to put his clubs away and choose his next clubs if he knows what he'll be using.

I don't care if people are serious about golf or not. What matters is if they have the knowledge on how to efficiently maneuver around the course. Walkers don't have to think about it too much until they reach the green and figure out where to leave their bag. Cart riders have more to think about. Dropping 1 player off then the other goes to their ball. Pick the other up and wait until they get to the next shot to put their clubs away. If 1 player is off the green, where to drop them off and who takes the cart.

Agreed entirely. I'm basing that not on how things could be done, but on how things tend to be done.

 

[JB]

Oops, forgot to say. I play better when I walk I think because the steps help me to feel the rhythm and tempo of my swing. I haven't actually recorded my scores or anything, but I feel like I'm a couple of shots better on foot than in a cart, unless there's something like oppressive heat to offset it.

That and I think if a course is easily walkable and you're young enough and fit enough to walk, but ride, then you're definitely lazy. I include myself in that too. When I ride, it's often because I'm being lazy. When I was a kid, anyone even using a pull cart would get ribbed senseless for being lazy and not carrying their bag.

Last one this time (at least I think it is), JB seems to get up in arms about someone judging someone by appearance when they're riding a cart, but that's not judging someone by appearance. It's judging them for the choices they make. In the same way as if you see someone on the street with a swastika tattooed on their forehead, you're not judging them for their appearance, but you (or I imagine most people) are judging them because they made the choice to tattoo that on their forehead. Before anyone wigs out, I'm not comparing riding a cart with wearing a swastika tattoo (which, judging by some of the reactions in this thread to JP's stuff is exactly what people will think I'm doing)

Not sure I agree with that last part. How would one know of ones choices wirthout the appearance side of it. For instance take the swastika part out of it. When seeing someone tattooed on the face, is someone looking at them different for their choices or for their appearance. Its the same thing. Without having spoken to a person, the person is being judged or thought of based on what one sees. That is appearance.



Posted from my BlackBerry using BerryBlab

 

[TC]

Both Walkers and Riders can claim serious golfers in their ranks. But those who aren’t serious or who are not “there just to play golf” tend to take carts more often than choosing to walk, therefore walkers tend to be more serious than riders overall.





-JP

i keep coming back to this line over and over again and i still just do not get it. here's what i am pretty sure we've determined from that past few pages:

1. you have explained what your definition of opinion and biased is
2. you prefer walking
3. you prefer blades for their feedback
4. you've explained yourself

BUT, there's one thing that i keep going back to and just can't shake it. you seem to quote and answer pretty much everyone with the exception of a couple of people, that being esox and JB and their question of "what do you consider a serious golfer"?

i think that you should at least answer that question for them, b/c if you read the past few pages, it's really all that they've wanted to know. how come you avoided the question?

 

[Bridges]

I have nothing to say lol

 

[JPsuff]

i keep coming back to this line over and over again and i still just do not get it. here's what i am pretty sure we've determined from that past few pages:

1. you have explained what your definition of opinion and biased is
2. you prefer walking
3. you prefer blades for their feedback
4. you've explained yourself

BUT, there's one thing that i keep going back to and just can't shake it. you seem to quote and answer pretty much everyone with the exception of a couple of people, that being esox and JB and their question of "what do you consider a serious golfer"?

i think that you should at least answer that question for them, b/c if you read the past few pages, it's really all that they've wanted to know. how come you avoided the question?

I think I've already answered that question in a number of ways and frankly I'm a little surprised that two intelligent people such as they cannot infer the answer themselves or that it actually require further explanation.


-JP

 

[TC]

I think I've already answered that question in a number of ways and frankly I'm a little surprised that two intelligent people such as they cannot infer the answer themselves or that it actually require further explanation.


-JP

huh? it's a pretty simple question and i am not sure i've found an answer yet myself and i've been looking. what constitutes a serious golfer (to you!)?

 

[GolferGal]

I think I've already answered that question in a number of ways and frankly I'm a little surprised that two intelligent people such as they cannot infer the answer themselves or that it actually require further explanation.


-JP

It's that exact condescending attitude that you just had in this response that gets people so angry. Maybe you don't mean things the way you say them but it can easily be taken the wrong way and then it causes all the issues.

huh? it's a pretty simple question and i am not sure i've found an answer yet myself and i've been looking. what constitutes a serious golfer (to you!)?

Thank you, I agree.

 

[Sunday_Hacker]

I am also very curious to finally hear what you feel makes someone a "serious" golfer?

 

[JPsuff]

huh? it's a pretty simple question and i am not sure i've found an answer yet myself and i've been looking. what constitutes a serious golfer (to you!)?

As I've said, I believe I've already explained this. Additionally, since Ty Webb seems to have had little trouble figuring this out, perhaps you and others should simply read what he's posted. I'd say his comments pretty much sum things up.


-JP

 

[Ty_Webb]

Not sure I agree with that last part. How would one know of ones choices wirthout the appearance side of it. For instance take the swastika part out of it. When seeing someone tattooed on the face, is someone looking at them different for their choices or for their appearance. Its the same thing. Without having spoken to a person, the person is being judged or thought of based on what one sees. That is appearance.



Posted from my BlackBerry using BerryBlab

Right, but surely you must agree there is a difference between judging someone based on their appearance that is affected by the choices that they've made and judging someone based on their appearance that is not affected by choices that they made. If you see someone covered in tattoos, the chances are that you will think of them differently than someone who is not. The same way as if you see a homeless guy in the street, you're going to view them differently from the guy who is wearing a business suit. That is judging by appearance granted, but everyone does it and they're not necessarily wrong to do that. On the other hand, if you see two guys walking down the street wearing similar clothes and so on, but one is black and the other white, then judging them differently is not cool. Likewise thinking less of someone because they happen to have ginger hair say. That's not good either, but they both happen.

Similarly if I go to the golf course and see some guy standing on the first tee with his name on his golf bag and he then chops it 30 yards, I am going to think that he's an idiot. It's not something I have a great deal of control over. I just will. Now, my judgement if I see a young fit guy in a cart at a course that is easily walkable is going to be a whole lot less extreme, but I am going to judge him for it. I don't think there's anything wrong with judging people for the choices they make. The fact that I use their appearance to determine those choices is neither here nor there.

 

[Bridges]

As I've said, I believe I've already explained this. Additionally, since Ty Webb seems to have had little trouble figuring this out, perhaps you and others should simply read what he's posted. I'd say his comments pretty much sum things up.


-JP

Are you incapable of answering the question instead of letting someone else answer it for you? Because we clearly want to know what YOU think not ty webb or anyone else, what you think. Is it that hard to answer it? I mean seriously instead of being smart alec about it and avoiding it, just answer the question, so we will know, I dont understand why your dragging this out when you could just put it to rest by answering it.

 

[Ty_Webb]

Are you incapable of answering the question instead of letting someone else answer it for you? Because we clearly want to know what YOU think not ty webb or anyone else, what you think. Is it that hard to answer it? I mean seriously instead of being smart alec about it and avoiding it, just answer the question, so we will know, I dont understand why your dragging this out when you could just put it to rest by answering it.

I'm curious about this. If he'd said "regular golfers" would you be asking him what he meant by "regular golfers"? First of all, I think it's pretty clear what "serious golfers" are (people who take the game seriously) and second of all, where JP happens to draw the boundaries between "serious" and "not serious" is entirely irrelevant to everything he posted.

That combined with the fact he can be a little stubborn from time to time (no offense JP) is probably why he's avoiding the question.

 

[Bridges]

I'm curious about this. If he'd said "regular golfers" would you be asking him what he meant by "regular golfers"? First of all, I think it's pretty clear what "serious golfers" are (people who take the game seriously) and second of all, where JP happens to draw the boundaries between "serious" and "not serious" is entirely irrelevant to everything he posted.

That combined with the fact he can be a little stubborn from time to time (no offense JP) is probably why he's avoiding the question.

Did he say regular golfers? no.

We want to know what he defines as a serious golfer in his opinion? What do they have to do to be considered a serious golfer.

Obviously you cant ride in cart to be a serious golfer. So he says.

 

[JR]

Wow. Just to chime in, here is my def.

Serious Golfer
-Practices at least 5 times a week
-Gets fitted.
-Plays what works, not what pros use
-Plays whenever he can,
-Practices if he cant play
-Gets others into the game.
-Joins THP

 

[Bridges]

Wow. Just to chime in, here is my def.

Serious Golfer
-Practices at least 5 times a week
-Gets fitted.
-Plays what works, not what pros use
-Plays whenever he can,
-Practices if he cant play
-Gets others into the game.
-Joins THP

Im guessing you didnt read all of it? no one else said what they thought was a serious golfer, just wanting to know JP's defenition for some of the things he has said in other posts.

You know im not being a jerk to you, but this thread is pretty "heated" so make sure you read everything first lol

 

[TC]

i'm sorry but i was raised to have the attitude and mentality of not judging a book by its cover, so to speak. i have a bunch of tattoos, but have a college degree, have a job in corporate america, am a great father and partner to my lady, pay my taxes, ride in golf carts (b/c quite frankly most of the courses around here are impossible to walk), play GI irons, love golf, take my game seriously, and happen to be a low single digit handicapper.

how hard is it to just be honest and to just answer a question? at this point i'm inclined to believe that JP just feels as though his stance and his views on what "defines a serious golfer" will never be fully understood. i say this b/c he hasn't really helped me understand what his definition is. i'm just trying to figure all of this out more than anything. maybe i am seriously missing something, but for the life of me i can't find the answer in any of JP's posts or in ty's.......i have an idea of what you have both said about a lot of things here, but my simple question of what defines a serious golfer has yet to be answered......sorry.

 

[Goins]

i'm sorry but i was raised to have the attitude and mentality of not judging a book by its cover, so to speak. i have a bunch of tattoos, but have a college degree, have a job in corporate america, am a great father and partner to my lady, pay my taxes, ride in golf carts (b/c quite frankly most of the courses around here are impossible to walk), play GI irons, love golf, take my game seriously, and happen to be a low single digit handicapper.

how hard is it to just be honest and to just answer a question? at this point i'm inclined to believe that JP just feels as though his stance and his views on what "defines a serious golfer" will never be fully understood. i say this b/c he hasn't really helped me understand what his definition is. i'm just trying to figure all of this out more than anything. maybe i am seriously missing something, but for the life of me i can't find the answer in any of JP's posts or in ty's.......i have an idea of what you have both said about a lot of things here, but my simple question of what defines a serious golfer has yet to be answered......sorry.

He won't answer you because by doing so it would prove his arrogance and elitist attitude. I hope he enjoys his walks because without us dumb, aloof, cart-riding golfers he wouldn't have anywhere to play. The courses would shut down due to lack of funds.