- Staff
- #476
I agree & maybe don’t give an US Open to a course like Erin Hills, that requires wind conditions to defend it...
NEWS The USGA Distance Insights Project
- Moderator
- #478
I've put a lot more thought into this today as I pondered the real problems involved with golf and distance.
What I can't get away from, is how dramatically different the amateur experience is from the professional level. I keep coming back to this chart, and I know I've talked a lot about it, but there is one thing about it that sticks with me;
The technological advances in the late 90s were dramatic for distance. Throughout the history of the game, when making sweeping changes to the material used to produce a product, you are bound to see big changes. These were apparent in both the tour numbers and the amateur numbers. BUT, and this is a HUGE but; distances in 2000 are almost equitable to distances today between handicap ranges. The average golfer has NOT seen a dramatic increase since the Ti driver and ball change that brought us into the new century of golf ripple effect.
If you look at the tour, however, there are sweeping changes occurring, and they have next to nothing to do with the actual product being used. Athletes are taking over the distance game. Back in the 90s, it was Daly who was above the rest, and anybody willing to believe that Daly was an athlete.. well... I can't really help you. Here's the chart provided by the USGA Distance Report yesterday, cut down dramatically to show only the last 20ish years after the last BIG change to equipment.
yeah, an upward trend. I see it too. But these are five yard increments. Let's look at it with the lines in to see how 'dramatic' the increase has been.
Is it really that scary, considering the change in the game over the last 20 years from a player/athlete perspective?
After Tiger came on the scene, and the Tiger proofing that occurred, we saw a wave of players cut from a different cloth start to have success. These athletes, with swing speeds that have consistently increased, while maintaining the accuracy that is a necessity in today's tour.. I read something about guys like Rory who started his Tour career with a swing speed of under 110 miles an hour, and now boats speeds of well above 120mph, driven heavily by constant coaching, a rigorous training/lifting regimen, and I would assume lots of swings. Now we have guys like Cameron Champ who already have ridiculous speed despite only being on tour for a couple years, and it leads to the question of what would become of his distance game in the next 10 years. Is he already maxed, or can he take it to another level?
All of this considered, I believe that the player has seen a MUCH bigger change than the equipment in the last 20 years as it relates to distance and Tour play. It's likely why amateur numbers are relatively flat, because we have obligations outside of the game that don't allow us to be in peak physical condition, endlessly practice our game, and swing out of our heads with accuracy.
I've said all this to make a simple point; This game doesn't have a distance problem for the 99% of regular guys playing weekend games with friends. Tee It Forward is still the biggest problem for this game from an amateur perspective.
The 'problem' is athletic tour players maxing out their ability unlike ever before, and products being more accurate than they have ever been, opening the door to swinging at will or at the very least, more aggressively. If change was ever needed at the Tour level, it would have to come at the combination of more creative layouts that force either incredible shaping of the golf ball off the tee, or forced layups. Or, as I've mentioned repeatedly, soften the fairways enough that bounces of more than fifty yards aren't the norm, dramatically increasing the distance players can achieve off the tee.
The last thing I want to see happen, is the tour degrade the value of distance as a skill. As guys like Rory McIlroy and Dustin Johnson have proven, you can be great at something other than putting and achieve success out there.
If the USGA/PGA Tour really want to see distance decrease, forcing players to consider clubs other than driver off the tee might need to be the real solution. Is it time to start considering a smaller head for tour player? 460cc with the forgiveness that is packed into the head nowadays could be why so many of these pros are swinging with so much freedom.
What I can't get away from, is how dramatically different the amateur experience is from the professional level. I keep coming back to this chart, and I know I've talked a lot about it, but there is one thing about it that sticks with me;
The technological advances in the late 90s were dramatic for distance. Throughout the history of the game, when making sweeping changes to the material used to produce a product, you are bound to see big changes. These were apparent in both the tour numbers and the amateur numbers. BUT, and this is a HUGE but; distances in 2000 are almost equitable to distances today between handicap ranges. The average golfer has NOT seen a dramatic increase since the Ti driver and ball change that brought us into the new century of golf ripple effect.
If you look at the tour, however, there are sweeping changes occurring, and they have next to nothing to do with the actual product being used. Athletes are taking over the distance game. Back in the 90s, it was Daly who was above the rest, and anybody willing to believe that Daly was an athlete.. well... I can't really help you. Here's the chart provided by the USGA Distance Report yesterday, cut down dramatically to show only the last 20ish years after the last BIG change to equipment.
yeah, an upward trend. I see it too. But these are five yard increments. Let's look at it with the lines in to see how 'dramatic' the increase has been.
Is it really that scary, considering the change in the game over the last 20 years from a player/athlete perspective?
After Tiger came on the scene, and the Tiger proofing that occurred, we saw a wave of players cut from a different cloth start to have success. These athletes, with swing speeds that have consistently increased, while maintaining the accuracy that is a necessity in today's tour.. I read something about guys like Rory who started his Tour career with a swing speed of under 110 miles an hour, and now boats speeds of well above 120mph, driven heavily by constant coaching, a rigorous training/lifting regimen, and I would assume lots of swings. Now we have guys like Cameron Champ who already have ridiculous speed despite only being on tour for a couple years, and it leads to the question of what would become of his distance game in the next 10 years. Is he already maxed, or can he take it to another level?
All of this considered, I believe that the player has seen a MUCH bigger change than the equipment in the last 20 years as it relates to distance and Tour play. It's likely why amateur numbers are relatively flat, because we have obligations outside of the game that don't allow us to be in peak physical condition, endlessly practice our game, and swing out of our heads with accuracy.
I've said all this to make a simple point; This game doesn't have a distance problem for the 99% of regular guys playing weekend games with friends. Tee It Forward is still the biggest problem for this game from an amateur perspective.
The 'problem' is athletic tour players maxing out their ability unlike ever before, and products being more accurate than they have ever been, opening the door to swinging at will or at the very least, more aggressively. If change was ever needed at the Tour level, it would have to come at the combination of more creative layouts that force either incredible shaping of the golf ball off the tee, or forced layups. Or, as I've mentioned repeatedly, soften the fairways enough that bounces of more than fifty yards aren't the norm, dramatically increasing the distance players can achieve off the tee.
The last thing I want to see happen, is the tour degrade the value of distance as a skill. As guys like Rory McIlroy and Dustin Johnson have proven, you can be great at something other than putting and achieve success out there.
If the USGA/PGA Tour really want to see distance decrease, forcing players to consider clubs other than driver off the tee might need to be the real solution. Is it time to start considering a smaller head for tour player? 460cc with the forgiveness that is packed into the head nowadays could be why so many of these pros are swinging with so much freedom.
- Moderator
- #479
How many courses would be impacted by this? I'm talking purely about tour play during tour play week.
Nowhere else out there has a real distance problem. It's fake news.
Ah! @snafu ditch that rusty old blade for a New Light Saber
wow dont know where i fall but per my handy cap its says i max drive 266 and avg 176 and I know i drive about 280 avg
I got it last year. When I started putters fine Im the problem lol
half the time I feel like im bowling with a stick
For the graph you have shown, did they share any information about course conditions as part of driving distance by handicap??
I still believe that part of the solution lies on course set up. Run of the mill tournaments should have rough that is penal; major championships should have rough that is down right penal. Fairway landing areas at driver distances should be choked down and rough is significant so if players choose to hit driver the risk / reward is measurable.... hit it in the rough and most likely lose 1/2 or a full stroke.
Actually.... it was Mars Blackmon (aka Spike Lee) who said it....As Michael Jordan would say, "It's got to be the Shoes"!:snub:
It's a handful of courses. Qualification courses for the US Open. For major tournament set up they can let the rough grow out. First cut, fine. Second cut? make it the tall cabbage as they call it. That's all they need to do.
Everywhere else, the distance is a non-problem.
Since we know the manufacturers will not go along with any equipment roll back, what will the USGA do? Set limits on bicep and quadriceps size? Ban physical training?
Well done on the Pod cast, I was able to let it run while i was working today at the office
- Moderator
- #489
That is the funny part to me. You're not rolling back the last twenty years of innovation, you're rolling back the impact of a real athlete in golf.It's a handful of courses. Qualification courses for the US Open. For major tournament set up they can let the rough grow out. First cut, fine. Second cut? make it the tall cabbage as they call it. That's all they need to do.
Everywhere else, the distance is a non-problem.
Since we know the manufacturers will not go along with any equipment roll back, what will the USGA do? Set limits on bicep and quadriceps size? Ban physical training?
Dustin Johnson had some very Dustin Johnson-y insight on the distance debate.....lol
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What did Tony Finau say. Sir I promise not to hit my Pitching Wedge 200 yards further
When they should be looking at growing the game they are instead considering this nonsense which I truly believe could turn golfers off..
They can accomplish the same thing with a RotoTiller and a $3 pack of wildflower seeds starting at the 280 yard mark to about 340. Give them a 5 yard wide stretch of fairway and a hearty “good luck”
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How much farther do players hit 30* blades irons than they did 30 years ago? There is absolutely no technology in a blade iron. If they are smoking those 20-30 yards past where they were a few years ago than it's almost all player and ball improvement right? Tiger won 4 strait majors with a ball no one else had. Nick Price almost did the same in the mid 90's.
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #497
This just isn't true. Materials alone and placement of weight alone can be quite different. Just in the last ten years we have seen most muscle backs in design shift CG towards the center rather than heel. Some have gone with progressive CG by using hosel length. Weight lower, grinds/leading edge differences and a number of others depending on model.
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This is a long diatribe by the RA & USGA, but do they address the evolution of the modern golfer? Meaning are they looking how athletes train, eat and take better care of their bodies? Do they address how the pros playing golf right now are great athletes in other sports?
I think the distance argument is weak because you are grouping in the entire golfing public based on stats of maybe the top 1% who are pros and have skills many of us will never attain.
I stand firm that we don't have a distance problem or an equipment problem, but a course set up/agronomy problem. The pros are not being tested each week like pros were in years past.
I think the distance argument is weak because you are grouping in the entire golfing public based on stats of maybe the top 1% who are pros and have skills many of us will never attain.
I stand firm that we don't have a distance problem or an equipment problem, but a course set up/agronomy problem. The pros are not being tested each week like pros were in years past.
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #500
Hotter faces have much less to do with distance in irons than people think. Its an internet term. Yes thinning the face of an iron can produce more speed, but ONLY when it combined with certain weighting and other characteristics does it produce more distance. Distance is not speed only, despite what is posted by some websites. Combine that with the part of weight placement, can actually change speed characteristics.
Now this is the part that nobody ever wants to mention and that is impact. Players miss. Even at the highest level they do. Modern tech in clubs has allowed them to miss, including their irons and still get away with distance that was not achievable previously. So where as 10+ years ago finesse had to be done to get away with scoring, bomb and gouge wins. Running at the same parallel is how many tour players are using more forgiveness (especially at the longer side of their bag) and you have a recipe for scores going lower and distances running deep.