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Another golf coach knocking the modern swing...

ohio_striker

ohio_striker

striped it
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I agree with Peter. Now that I'm 50, starting a couple years ago I began a swing change to free up my hips and use more leg and foot movement to take the stress off my back and other joints. My hip turn is much larger that before but my swing is easier on my body and I can still carry my driver 260+ yards. I can, and often do, go out and hit 350 balls at a time and I'm less sore the next day than I was when I was 30. I also think very few of us over the age of 35 posess the necessary flexibility throughout our bodies to get into the swing positions of the average tour pro. I play golf with a lot of guys in the 0-5 index range and none of them get into the swing positions of let's say, Adam Scott.
 
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I'm not saying that the new swing isn't the reason for back problems, but it could also be that because of todays "news now/24/7" we just hear about it more than we use to. The modern swing is far more repeatable than the classic reverse C from Jack back in the day. YES, we over analyze numbers, but again, we didn't HAVE launch monitors back in the Golden Era of Golf, or I'm sure people like Johnny Miller would have used it, too. Golfers are more athletes now, than then. The number of golfers who play in the singles digits are MUCH higher than they were back then. Technology is part of that, but I feel that the modern swing and knowledge learned in it is part of that, too.
 
I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" swing. I do believe that for our very different and varied bodies there can only be a few techniques that we can swing a golf club efficiently without hurting ourselves.

I think many of the pro injuries are self-inflicted, meaning they were choosing a swing that wasn't right for their bodies.

That's another thing why I like about our sport - hundreds of years pass and no one has been able to put the golf swing in a bottle.
 
theoverswinger said:
I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" swing. I do believe that for our very different and varied bodies there can only be a few techniques that we can swing a golf club efficiently without hurting ourselves.
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I get what you're saying...but there is definitely a wrong swing. There may not be a 100% cut and dry correct way to do it, but there are definitely ways not to do it.
 
A textbook swing does not exist. So many examples out there of swings filled with "faults" or people doing things "wrong" but the results being great. There are things/positions that make things eaisier but in the end it is if someone can own their swing and make it work. All the lessons in the world will do nothing if you don't own the swing you are taught/have

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Teacher that came up with Kostis are going to always fall back on the old school methods. Modern teachers that come up through the PGA programs will teach what they are taught. Right now that is all numbers and data. The standouts will take from what they are learning and adapt it to their own style. Taking from the past and the present to create the future. I left the PGA because I felt they never taught pros how to teach but taught 'what' to teach.

All the pros I know that are worth their weight in gold have built upon the teachers of the past and mixed in modern techniques and technology.
ohio_striker said:
Another guy knocking how golf is taught today. Do you think more teachers will go back to a more feel focused teaching. rather then the new position based teaching ?


http://www.golf.com/instruction/peter-kostis-too-much-data-modern-teaching?xid=nl_instruction
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couldn't disagree more. more information is better than less information. how it's used is what dictates its efficacy.

i appreciate peter diagnosing the cause of tiger's back problem. i wonder what score he recorded on his mcat. what color matte did he choose when framed his d.o.?

i find it interesting how often the detractors of technology tend to be older. don't move my cheese!

i find it kinda sad. and it reminds me of principal skinner's quote in the simpsons: "am i out of touch? no, it's the children who are wrong."
 
I think for everyone who says the secret is in some element of the "old school" or classic swing, there's either an element in a comparably successful classic player that we're also told is damaging to the body (Gary Player's straight left knee in the downswing comes to mind) or there's an element in the "modern" swing that is a byproduct of old school teaching, like the amount of spine tilt at impact, a byproduct (arguably an exaggeration) of Ben Hogan's teaching.

I'm not saying planting or not planting the left heel is bad. I've said before, I think if you're consciously lifting your left heel, or consciously keeping it on the ground, you're adding a mental complication to your swing. I'm no swing coach, but I think it comes down to the ability to get the center of the face on the ball.
 
c.a.eleric said:
more information is better than less information. how it's used is what dictates its efficacy.
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I will agree to an extent with that part of your statement. But I believe the issue here is that for the majority of people out there, there is information overload, or a misunderstanding of what the information even means. I didn't find what he was saying to be any sort of "get off my lawn" attitude...I just took it as there is so much information out there that people can't process all of it, and people should focus on actually swinging more than what's "correct".

Overloading people with information is just as damaging and paralyzing as providing too little. You need to find the right information and balance to provide people with.
 
I think a big problem nowadays is teachers teaching to get perfect numbers. Their students get obsessed with chasing a perfect number or a 0ed out swing. Yes that's great and can make the game easier but if someone does something well like say play a stock fade with a -3 path. Instead of breaking him down completely to get 0ed out, why not build on what he has and make smaller parts of his swing better and more consistent to strike the ball even better than before without completely breaking down his swing? I see both sides and have to agree that more info can be better, if it's taught in a way that the student understands and can apply.
 
I truly believe we will not see many of these young. "modern swing" golfers play late into their careers. ( and to be honest, with the money out there now, many of them won't have to ) I am not a "Get off my lawn!" guy at all. I simply have a background in this area and some opinions. I have always said I don't believe there is only one right way to swing a club - body type is a big factor amongst other things.
 
I think less is more with avergar golfers. Golfers that play once a week or on weekends. They can not digest a great of info at one time. Numbers, AOA, SS, smash factor and other info just confuse the situation. As a numbers guy, it works for you. But I think it just confuses the hell out of people.It also breeds misinformation and people share this info to the detriment of those listening.
c.a.eleric said:
couldn't disagree more. more information is better than less information. how it's used is what dictates its efficacy.

i appreciate peter diagnosing the cause of tiger's back problem. i wonder what score he recorded on his mcat. what color matte did he choose when framed his d.o.?

i find it interesting how often the detractors of technology tend to be older. don't move my cheese!

i find it kinda sad. and it reminds me of principal skinner's quote in the simpsons: "am i out of touch? no, it's the children who are wrong."
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The old school guy's taught strictly by ball flight. I have read interviews with guy's that said they can tell what a player is doing by the shape of his ball flight without even looking at the players swing. They taught backwards. The newer guy's seem to be obsessed with positions and numbers, not club head path and how it strikes the ball. I think numbers are important for dialing in equipment, but in the end I want to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible. I don't care how it looks.

Stack and tilt was the wave of the future for golf swings now you really don't hear much about it. What's next?
 
ohio_striker said:
Another guy knocking how golf is taught today. Do you think more teachers will go back to a more feel focused teaching. rather then the new position based teaching ?


http://www.golf.com/instruction/peter-kostis-too-much-data-modern-teaching?xid=nl_instruction
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Heck, even Kostis doesn't get it right.

Some instruction says for the lower body to resist; recent instruction does not. In fact, if you look at a lot of PGA Touring Pros, the rear leg loses a lot of (it's a range) flex, and the hips are encouraged to turn freely. I guess it all depends on your instruction. I go to a biomechanical type - haven't had back issues in years due to the golf swing.
 
Tadashi70 said:
I think less is more with avergar golfers. Golfers that play once a week or on weekends. They can not digest a great of info at one time. Numbers, AOA, SS, smash factor and other info just confuse the situation. As a numbers guy, it works for you. But I think it just confuses the hell out of people.It also breeds misinformation and people share this info to the detriment of those listening.
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i think you're talking about casual golfers, and i don't think those guys know what aoa is or have any idea what this kind of a doppler-based lesson is. they know the jacked up sim at their local big box store, that's it. heck, those casual golfers don't even get lessons.

an interesting question is should the instructor turn the monitor around? instead of, "here, let's look at these numbers together," maybe it makes more sense for the instructor to use that information but keep it to themselves, and just focus on the drills/swing thoughts/lesson plan. i remember jim telling me that finding out his ss on flightscope in tampa really messed with his mind because it was lower than he thought, and he feels like he has been swinging out of his shoes trying to correct that with very poor results. so i can see how it could be a problem when used improperly.
 
cbaker2882 said:
I will agree to an extent with that part of your statement. But I believe the issue here is that for the majority of people out there, there is information overload, or a misunderstanding of what the information even means. I didn't find what he was saying to be any sort of "get off my lawn" attitude...I just took it as there is so much information out there that people can't process all of it, and people should focus on actually swinging more than what's "correct".

Overloading people with information is just as damaging and paralyzing as providing too little. You need to find the right information and balance to provide people with.
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i could see it being the webmd phenomenon. my mother gets a headache and is convinced she has brain cancer because webmd says that's a possible diagnosis for her symptom. but to say utilizing technology is bad, i just can't dig on that. if it's used improperly, yes that is a problem. but i took his thrust to be "jack hit it long and jack raised his heel and jack didn't have trackman so let's all wear polyester pants and swing like jack. those were the days!"
 
What about people who simply can't get to the desired positions of the modern swing? A teacher has to be able to work with what the student has, and that goes for anything, not just golf. I teach shooting. I can't expect everyone to do everything exactly as I do it. Everybody's body is different. My back is a mess as a result of a motorcycle accident, bones are places they aren't supposed to be, I'm not going to swing like Adam Scott. An instructor has to be able to work around those kinds of differences from person to person.
 
c.a.eleric said:
i could see it being the webmd phenomenon. my mother gets a headache and is convinced she has brain cancer because webmd says that's a possible diagnosis for her symptom. but to say utilizing technology is bad, i just can't dig on that. if it's used improperly, yes that is a problem. but i took his thrust to be "jack hit it long and jack raised his heel and jack didn't have trackman so let's all wear polyester pants and swing like jack. those were the days!"
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I know that phenomenon.

"My elbow hurts."
"Probably banged it on something."
"I'm pretty sure its a rare bone cancer, coupled with a South American flesh eating disease."
 
I don't understand why so many teaching pro's talk to golfers like they are children. Give them information, and all of it if they want it. That includes their swing data. If they don't want it or feel like it's overwhelming, let them decide that. Just like our bodies are different, our brains respond differently to varied styles of teaching/information. I personally want everything, swing thoughts, data, tips, etc.
 
I haven't read the article. But is the title, "Get Off My Lawn", written by Peter Kostis?

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that the guy who uses a high frame rate HD camera to instantly break down a golfer's swing during a live television broadcast, is complaining about technology?

I have my own theory why there are so many back problems with modern golfers but everybody is going to roll their eyes so I will let it be.
 
blugold said:
I haven't read the article. But is the title, "Get Off My Lawn", written by Peter Kostis?

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that the guy who uses a high frame rate HD camera to instantly break down a golfer's swing during a live television broadcast, is complaining about technology?

I have my own theory why there are so many back problems with modern golfers but everybody is going to roll their eyes so I will let it be.
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It's because they suck at lifting isn't it?

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blugold said:
I have my own theory why there are so many back problems with modern golfers but everybody is going to roll their eyes so I will let it be.
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Tell me more. I won't be rolling my eyes.
 
-CRW- said:
Tell me more. I won't be rolling my eyes.
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I believe the tendency to rely on strength training comprised of isolation based movements is a large contributing factor. I don't understand why trainers use isolated movements with athletes when there is no athletic movement that isolates muscles. I'm not a fan of "core specific" lifts either. I'm not a doctor, a licensed physical therapist, or a certified personal trainer.
 
blugold said:
I believe the tendency to rely on strength training comprised of isolation based movements is a large contributing factor. I don't understand why trainers use isolated movements with athletes when there is no athletic movement that isolates muscles. I'm not a fan of "core specific" lifts either. I'm not a doctor, a licensed physical therapist, or a certified personal trainer.
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but i bet you have a wallet that says "bad motherf-----"

and while i don't know about the specific reasons you are citing, i do think the general back issues people experience are due to exercise or lack thereof. we have more and more desk jobs, we are a sedentary society, and we eat terribly. i have the muffintop to prove it.
 
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