Can lessons destroy your game?

[Luchnia]

I play with a high handicapper that has struggled some this year with his game. He played better the entire two years prior. I give him some guidance when we play and his game is always better, but I did not play with him as much as I was playing a lot of senior tournament golf this year. The thing is he quickly goes back to bad habits because he listens to everything under the sun. I will admit I don't help him much now because I have grown tired of helping him.

Recently he decided he needed lessons, which is a good idea for him, however from what I see the coach is not teaching him what he actually needs. The coach is teaching him a different style which certainly can work, but after playing with this guy for 3 years now, I believe it is not the right approach. It will be a completely new game for him. The thing is I am a fellow golfer so what I say doesn't hold too much and I have my own weaknesses that need work.

His game has went to total crap since he started his lessons. The last couple of times I played with him it was as much as 15-30 strokes over his highest scores! He carded a 140 the last round we played! It was disastrous and I am trying to encourage him to play his regular game which is around 100. If that happened to me after having a couple of lessons I would be asking my coach some serious questions. A bad game here and there is expected in golf, but in the past 3 years I have never seen him play so horribly.

He heard someone say after lessons you will play worse for a while and that is his justification at the moment. I totally get it, yet I keep telling him the swing is not nearly as important as what happens when the club strikes the ball. It is the impact that is key,but he is hung up on the mechanics. This is not to say mechanics are not important, but in his case he needs to get his mind off of the mechanics as they are driving what he does.

At least he has made his mind up to work on his game and do it over the winter which is good. Have you, or others that you know, had this type of experience after a couple of lessons and were they this drastic and if so, what did you find that helped?

 

[1860VS]

140????? Buy him a badminton racket. Never even heard of anyone shooting 140........
Highest score I have ever seen shot was in the low 120's, and that was brutal. I cant even imagine 140.

 

[Luchnia]

140????? Buy him a badminton racket. Never even heard of anyone shooting 140........
Highest score I have ever seen shot was in the low 120's, and that was brutal. I cant even imagine 140.

Scoring in the low 100s is bad enough, but this was extra brutal! My first ever 18 hole round was a 127 and I knew very little about golf. I think this guy can shoot in the high 90s and he has broke a 100 a couple times, but after lessons this was sick.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

I have no way of knowing the value (or not) of his new teacher. But if he's going to stick with making changes that are wrecking his game that badly, encourage him to quit keeping score for a few months until he finds some kind of new equilibrium.

There were certainly a couple times in my first year of playing when my head was totally into some sort of mechanical thing I was trying to force myself to do on every swing and I literally couldn't get the ball off the ground but about one swing out of five. I usually got past that in a couple weeks but during that time I wouldn't have even thought about trying to finish each hole and write down a score. He's basically working on his swing while out on the course, which is fine but there's no need to do it with scorecard and pencil in hand.

But as I say, he might just be getting bad instruction. That's something he's ultimately going to have to judge for himself.

 

[Hawk]

He doesn’t really have much to lose does he? Maybe it works out long term if he sticks with it. If you break something in the chain of compensations and band aids things can go south pretty fast.

 

[alistaird]

140????? Buy him a badminton racket. Never even heard of anyone shooting 140........
Highest score I have ever seen shot was in the low 120's, and that was brutal. I cant even imagine 140.

Let's not be rude about Badminton -I played for many years and it's as hard as any game (maybe excluding golf...) to reach I high standard.

On a different note though - when I've been through a major swing change after the pro asked if I wanted to get a lot better or a bit better... I spent a lot of time practicing vs playing to get the changes somewhat bedded in before venturing onto a course... Maybe he needs to spend a bit more time on the range or similar before venturing back out?

Just my 2 pence worth as we say this side of the pond... HMMV....

A

 

[hadi05]

While he's committed to getting better, I'd recommend the following.

1. Play at least a teebox forward (they need to play the right set of tees for their skill level)

2. Limit each hole to double par and then pick the ball up to keep pace of play

3. Remind him to just keep loose while he's playing. When we focus on mechanical (that maybe what he needs to do/ not do idk) we can become very rigid and that makes ANY swing worse.

4. Encourage him to have fun while he's playing on the course.

 

[Jimmy3864]

I can’t imagine doing such a rebuild that added so many strokes over his previous highs. I do recall on one major swing change my teacher had me doing something completely abnormal as his goal was to quickly de-train a pattern and it was going to be ugly. After 2-3 weeks we were scheduled to meet again and he would dial pattern back a bit until our final lesson in 4-6 weeks. The expectation was I would practice in addition to play.

First time out I told my playing partners it could get ugly and it was but I learned quickly that during play, I personally dialed back the extremes so it wasn’t too embarrassing but after 6-8 weeks and 3 lessons, fault was fixed. I would say though I was at worst 5-10 strokes (max) for the first few rounds and after a week was shaving strokes off my pre-lesson scores.

If anything, does your friend understand what his instructor is trying to do? Was he warned by instructor that his game would turn into a dumpster fire? Did the Instructor video tape and share with your friend the patterns he wants him to practice? I ask because I wonder if your friend is not interpreting something correctly and not following properly.

If it were me, I would call the instructor up and say something is wrong and need 10 minutes and show him. If he says he is doing everything right, then a decision would need to be made. Golf for fun shouldn’t be a painful struggle.

 

[hadi05]

You might suggest his instructor come with just him and they go play 9 holes of golf..

 

[TheDoctor]

First off, what qualifies you to say that the instructor is not teaching this person what they need to? Are you an instructor? Are you sitting in on the lessons they are having to see what the instructor is trying to achieve?

If you are only seeing the results on the course, it is possible that the person is not grasping what the instructor is trying to teach them

It is entirely possible that this instructor is not a good fit for the person trying to learn, but unless you have both sides of the coin, it is impossible to make that judgement in my opinion

Let's not be rude about Badminton -I played for many years and it's as hard as any game (maybe excluding golf...) to reach I high standard.

Guessing he has never played badminton before, so has no clue about how difficult it really is.....

 

[pumbaa]

Any swing change is going to wreck your game until you make the full change. If it doesn't get better I'd worry but it takes a couple of weeks/months to see results.

 

[blugold]

Without knowing anything about the lessons or the golfer, I tend to default to professional coach in matters like this.

 

[Luchnia]

First off, what qualifies you to say that the instructor is not teaching this person what they need to? Are you an instructor? Are you sitting in on the lessons they are having to see what the instructor is trying to achieve?

If you are only seeing the results on the course, it is possible that the person is not grasping what the instructor is trying to teach them

It is entirely possible that this instructor is not a good fit for the person trying to learn, but unless you have both sides of the coin, it is impossible to make that judgement in my opinion


Guessing he has never played badminton before, so has no clue about how difficult it really is.....

I get that there are always two sides to this coin and I have not attended any of his sessions. I do know the instructor and have watched him coaching other guys and I think he is an overall good instructor, but I think he is putting this guy in the wrong box with some parts of his swing. Maybe he has a plan though that will come through in time.

Let me give you an example of something I think this guy should not be taught.

With the driver this instructor is teaching this guy to roll his hands over and timing the rollover correctly to impact the ball. This guy does not have the skills/timing to make this work for more than a few swings and it would take more than what he has to master this. I play with 100s of golfers both recreational and tournament play and very few are able to time a driver hand rollover exactly.

Most instructors do not recommend this for weekend warriors. I do know a couple of guys that can do it well, but that is not the norm for average golfers. Maybe I am wrong about it and I hope so, but I have spent a lot of hours with this golfer and something tells me this will hurt him in the long run.

As far as putting, chipping, and other things the instructor is teaching him, they seem very good and should help his game greatly. I already noticed an improvement in his shots around the greens and his putting is better.

 

[Scorp]

I'd heard that a swing rebuild can be disastrous on one's golf game until they groove everything. And that takes time and practice. More practice than playing.

And I've shot something like a 140 before. It was easy. Don't play for a couple years, don't warm up before playing, have a wicked slice return, count every lost ball, and count the penalties. If you don't know whether it's a penalty, take one anyway because it's golf and it probably is.

 

[hadi05]

I'd heard that a swing rebuild can be disastrous on one's golf game until they groove everything. And that takes time and practice. More practice than playing.

And I've shot something like a 140 before. It was easy. Don't play for a couple years, don't warm up before playing, have a wicked slice return, count every lost ball, and count the penalties. If you don't know whether it's a penalty, take one anyway because it's golf and it probably is.

This made me laugh!

 

[Paddy1Putt]

Absolutely lessons can hurt a player. The title professional doesn't mean much to me to be completely honest.

3 primary thoughts I have about this topic.

Age and Time. Do you have the time to grind and/or health (can your body handle the banging of balls). I'm 47 and to be honest I can't I get numb wrist sore back etc... If I have time to practice it's either swing positions or stretches at home or (maybe chipping and putting).

Does your body type and ability level align with the instructors teaching style? I've seen instructors at the range who teach a lot of lower body rotation on 65 year olds out of shape guys. It's annoying to watch. They will never been able to get into those positions. Sick.

Last one snaps into the previous. Does the instructor teach a swing that matches up with the person swing personalities?

 

[jdtox]

I'm deathly afraid of lessons messing me up. I've heard too many horror stories of that happening

 

[Paddy1Putt]

I'm deathly afraid of lessons messing me up. I've heard too many horror stories of that happening

I don't blame you one bit. I finally found a guy who helped me understand what I was doing wrong, so then I could self help myself. I really liked how he explained wrist positions, my body type. Where I had strengths and weaknesses. What he recommended.

One example he told me since I am so right arm dominant I should run some low point drills with my left arm exclusively since that controls the face (I was battling a snap hook) and to play with a weak grip. It was the best lessons I ever had and it wasn't about me swinging it was about educating me.

All the rest have made me worse.

 

[jdtox]

I don't blame you one bit. I finally found a guy who helped me understand what I was doing wrong, so then I could self help myself. I really liked how he explained wrist positions, my body type. Where I had strengths and weaknesses. What he recommended.

One example he told me since I am so right arm dominant I should run some low point drills with my left arm exclusively since that controls the face (I was battling a snap hook) and to play with a weak grip. It was the best lessons I ever had and it wasn't about me swinging it was about educating me.

All the rest have made me worse.

There is no question there are good teachers out there and can help. I've taken a few when I was struggling at times but never more than one. I have seriously considered finding a coach though to help me get a few more strokes lower but I always hear it gets worse before better and I don't want to play worse haha.

 

[Paddy1Putt]

There is no question there are good teachers out there and can help. I've taken a few when I was struggling at times but never more than one. I have seriously considered finding a coach though to help me get a few more strokes lower but I always hear it gets worse before better and I don't want to play worse haha.

For me there are so many others things that can be done and that are so much more important.

For instance golf preservation. Staying healthy so you can continue to play.

Playing a lot of golf. Becoming a member and play 4 - 5 holes a day or as you schedule allows. This is so UNDERRATED.

Stretch and build some core golf strength to prevent injuries and allow yourself to go into those positions that you can't get into.... 40 degree shoulder plane on the backswing, 55 on the front. Unless you have great side bend and core strength (AND understanding) you'll never get into that critical position

Drills..... Drills on things you need to work on. I played tennis for YEARS and competitive in the metro area (7 states) and I didn't take swing lessons, I ran drills, drills and drills. Most people don't want to crawl they want to run immediately.

What about taking chipping and putting lessons? Very few do that.... Want to shave strokes, learn how to chip and putt correctly!

TBH the game isn't that hard to improve at if you are willing to eat humble pie and accept who you are, then and only then can you truly improve.

JMHO

 

[goalie]

With any sport, you're going to plateau well before your potential if you have bad technique, and, after you've been playing a sport for years, changing isn't going to be instant or without the old "two steps forward, one step back" thing happening.

In goaltending, it was often kids who always got up on the same "dominant" leg regardless of where the puck was (right or left) in front of them. Fixing that was ugly, but once you did, the recovery was so much quicker to the previously neglected side.

 

[echico]

A lot of people have found something that works for them then find out it is totally wrong and have to unlearn it through lessons. It is amazing some of the compensations we do to get the ball in the hole quicker. Lessons are tricky but to shot a 140 after lessons is brutal.

 

[McLovin]

There is no question there are good teachers out there and can help. I've taken a few when I was struggling at times but never more than one. I have seriously considered finding a coach though to help me get a few more strokes lower but I always hear it gets worse before better and I don't want to play worse haha.

i don't know man, i feel like a lot of teachers will tell you if you're not improving incrementally from the start, they're not doing their job.

i'm still on my swing journey, and i'm about 3 years into it. the biggest thing i would caution people about lessons is that depending on your attitude, it can suck ALL the fun out of the game.

 

[Chef23]

Lessons can definitely mess you up. I spent last winter working with an online program and it totally messed me up. I do think the concepts they were trying to teach me were solid but I my application wasn’t correct and it was missed on video feedback.

I expect that the instruction is probably solid but the application is wrong. The roll your hands through impact sounds like your friends application of something that may not be exactly what was explained. Unless you are sitting in the lesson it is hard to understand what is being communicated and how it gets translated. I do agree that is critical though. The instructor needs to be able to communicate in a way the student can apply the instruction.

 

[jdtox]

i don't know man, i feel like a lot of teachers will tell you if you're not improving incrementally from the start, they're not doing their job.

i'm still on my swing journey, and i'm about 3 years into it. the biggest thing i would caution people about lessons is that depending on your attitude, it can suck ALL the fun out of the game.

3 years is a LONG time, I definitely don't have the patience for that haha