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Forgiveness overrated?

SuperStroke
YetiLooper said:
One thing that really got me thinking about this is what forgiveness actually is. It doesn't make mishits straighter, it doesn't fix a slice or a hook, it just makes those poorly hit balls longer.
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I disagree with this premise. Higher MOI and better gear effect do, indeed, make mishits straighter. If your miss is the same distance from the sweet spot with a more forgiving driver, the shot will go straighter and the ball speed retention will be better.

Now, if you want to argue that 45" shafts vs 43" shafts eliminate that added forgiveness, you may be on to something. I don't know for sure.
 
I don't think forgiveness is overrated at all. I will say that I believe that OEM's use forgiveness as a marketing tool, even though the vast majority of golfer's will never really notice whether the current driver is more or less forgiving than a company's previous model. I realize that using a machine and trackman they can prove that the clubs are more forgiving across the face, but how much more forgiving and how that translates to each golfer is completely different.

Either way, I think golfer's of all levels can use forgiveness to their advantage. I do wish that I could find clubs that suited my eye that were more on the forgiving side, but that's just my own head causing that problem as there are plenty of good forgiving irons out there.
 
That's pretty much my point Mulligan9111. That's why I suggested changing my original premise to Over Hyped. I have been golfing for over 30 years I have friends who change drivers constantly and never see a great improvement in swing flaws due to forgiveness. And a lot of the time longer off the toe just means further into the rough. I've also seen players who are more consistent with MB irons than GI irons. That's the beauty of golf, no one shoe fits everyone.
 
I simply fail to see where forgiveness is a bad thing for anyone.
 
Did anyone say it was bad?
 
Mulligan9111 said:
Either way, I think golfer's of all levels can use forgiveness to their advantage. I do wish that I could find clubs that suited my eye that were more on the forgiving side, but that's just my own head causing that problem as there are plenty of good forgiving irons out there.
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i envy people who can look down at a shovel and have the same confidence they do with a butter knife. if i could be that way, i'd happily game more forgiving gi irons. but i've tried and failed to play larger, more forgiving clubs. i just seem to make better swings with smaller clubs. it kinda comes back to the old "play what you want to play" adage.
 
caeleric said:
i envy people who can look down at a shovel and have the same confidence they do with a butter knife. if i could be that way, i'd happily game more forgiving gi irons. but i've tried and failed to play larger, more forgiving clubs. i just seem to make better swings with smaller clubs. it kinda comes back to the old "play what you want to play" adage.
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It's not just the size of the club heads for me (even though that plays a big role), but it's the offset that also presents itself in a lot of the more forgiving irons. I flat out struggle with my alignment when there is too much offset in irons.
 
As mentioned above, i think its just over hyped. But i do believe in forgiveness and that some clubs add more than others. But what i don't buy into is higher hdcp always having to have the most forgiving irons or drivers possible. I am playing at about a 16 and only a few years ago i was a 24. I have made the switch to more of a cavity backed iron (kind of an inbetween). i have found that tons of offset and big chucky irons don't work for me. I lowered my hdcp thru practice, however, i finally found a set of irons that are not 1/2" thick when looking down at the topline and they have improved by ball striking ability. So in conclusion, forgiving doesn't always mean the same thing to every golfer. If you have a slice, you will still have it with a forgiving driver/iron. There is no such things as a forgiving "golf swing". Until someone markets that, it will continue to be one of the most challenging games ever played.
 
Mulligan9111 said:
It's not just the size of the club heads for me (even though that plays a big role), but it's the offset that also presents itself in a lot of the more forgiving irons. I flat out struggle with my alignment when there is too much offset in irons.
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Not all oversized clubs have large amounts of offset however. This comes down to the mental side and as I have always said, people should play what they want. I do believe largely in the technology advances in forgiveness and can show people that come to THP Events point blank where that is simply in ball speed, spin and launch numbers looking at two different irons in style. It doesnt mean everybody should play one type, but it does mean that forgiveness exists in all areas.
 
JB said:
Not all oversized clubs have large amounts of offset however. This comes down to the mental side and as I have always said, people should play what they want. I do believe largely in the technology advances in forgiveness and can show people that come to THP Events point blank where that is simply in ball speed, spin and launch numbers looking at two different irons in style. It doesnt mean everybody should play one type, but it does mean that forgiveness exists in all areas.
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I believe in the technology and forgiveness, it's just a mental thing for me looking down at a club.
 
I agree with everything said. I know i have Bio Cell+ irons and a Bio Cell 3I. The offset in the 3I isn't overbearing at all compared to other GI irons I have looked at in the past. I also believe that players irons, including muscle backs, are more forgiving now than they were 10 years ago. A lot of the GI technology in terms of adding tungsten and balance points has been utilized in players irons.
 
I was thinking about this recently, which spurred me to resurrect this older thread.

I certainly do think forgiveness is overrated to a certain degree. At least it's not very noticeable to me. I've tried all sorts of clubs the past few years from SGI, GI to player's clubs and I'll be the first to admit that my scores haven't improved. My handicap has stayed pretty steady the whole period. I have not noticed any club giving me 10 extra yards of distance like some admit, but I would welcome it :act-up:

My scoring didn't improve, my accuracy didn't improve, and my distance didn't improve. So where is the forgiveness measured? Really, I think the only noticeable category is lateral forgiveness. Does my toe/heel shot go 5-10yd short of my intended distance or further? Even then this is such an incredibly hard area to measure and gauge other than one person's perception. And is that really what matters here? What one person see's and believes?
 
sleuth said:
So where is the forgiveness measured? Really, I think the only noticeable category is lateral forgiveness. Does my toe/heel shot go 5-10yd short of my intended distance or further? Even then this is such an incredibly hard area to measure and gauge other than one person's perception. And is that really what matters here? What one person see's and believes?
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I think this concept is more for beginners or high handicappers than for a scratch player. I'm a beginner and definitely noticed a difference when trying out the GI and SGI clubs, in that my moderate mis-hits still launched up and straighter, and I noticed a difference in vibrations with tour caliber clubs and the SGI and GI clubs which didn't jar my hands on mis-hits.

I liken it to playing guitar to a degree. Having a well set up with low string action guitar is much easier on new players' hands, but once you can play well and have years behind you, it doesn't make as much of a difference.
 
NewGlfr said:
I think this concept is more for beginners or high handicappers than for a scratch player. I'm a beginner and definitely noticed a difference when trying out the GI and SGI clubs, in that my moderate mis-hits still launched up and straighter, and I noticed a difference in vibrations with tour caliber clubs and the SGI and GI clubs which didn't jar my hands on mis-hits.

I liken it to playing guitar to a degree. Having a well set up with low string action guitar is much easier on new players' hands, but once you can play well and have years behind you, it doesn't make as much of a difference.
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I'm really curious because I wonder how a persons chance for scrambling or recovering from inside 100yds would change across all handicaps.

Let's continue the conversation and say you were to switch to blades. Do you think your scores would be impacted? Do you think your average GIR would decrease?

So I would argue for a high handicapper the short game is even more important because you are missing greens. Regardless of the type of iron being used, if you are unable to scramble the second shot doesn't matter.
 
If forgiveness was overrated, or over hyped, we wouldn't be seeing tour pros using game improvement gear, but they do.

The "forgiveness" gear is specifically targeted for people like us, who want to have a better golf game but don't really have the time or commitment to improving our swings.

As for myself, I would rather try to fix what's wrong with my swing than reach out for the adjustable wrench. I use the wrench for fine tuning, not to make up for whatever swing errors that I have.

That said, I've moved on from a 2007 driver to a 2010 driver, and I can clearly see considerable improvement in forgiveness, and I'd be crazy not to take advantage of that.

Still, I also game with Ping i20 and i25 woods, which aren't quite GI, just like my Mizuno MP 52's.

Bottom line, I think it helps for GI gear to be out there, but it's not a lock, fitting and trying out still rules the day.
 
I don't know that it's overrated. Everybody misses, from tour pros on down. The question is, how badly do you want to be penalized for your misses? If the answer is "a lot", blades and real wood woods are definitely for you. If the answer is "as little as possible", SGI is where it's at. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle of those extremes, and it's different for everybody.
 
Personally, I'm more inclined to go with a club that has less forgiveness when it offers me the look and feel that I want, especially in a driver. All drivers these days offer so much more forgiveness than they did 10, even 5 years ago. The smaller driver heads always appeal to my eye more and I will go that route until I get

I know this goes against current convention but I grew up playing persimmon drivers and blade irons and am a good enough ball striker to not need as much forgiveness as someone who is working to break 100, 90, 80 or may just need that help to enjoy the game more. My enjoyment in golf comes from hitting that sweet spot, feeling that "tuning fork in your loins" that Roy McAvoy talks about in Tin Cup. I understand that my misses may not fly farther or hit the green when they might with other clubs but that's OK cause IMO that's part of golf. GOLF IS HARD and that's one of things I like about it the most. :)
 
People (the majority) just have to grasp that "forgiveness" in a club will not make them automatically start hitting perfect shots. It just helps lessen the blow when ball striking/swing is all over the place, that is it.
They still have to work on their flaws to truly fix things. Driver's are the biggest culprits of churning out more new models every year promising more forgiveness and longer/straighter shots. Due to the fact that the driver has the most surface area and is the longest club.
 
I certainly don't think forgiveness is overrated. Still being fairly new to the game, coming up on 4 years, when I went from hand me down Tommy Armour 845s irons to my current CB3s, not only did I see an entire club to club and a half distance gain, but when I caught the toe I would lose 10 or 15 yards. With the Tommy's if I caught a toe it was more like a 40 yard loss. I'll take that forgiveness any day of the week and my game has been getting better ever since.

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sleuth said:
I'm really curious because I wonder how a persons chance for scrambling or recovering from inside 100yds would change across all handicaps.

Let's continue the conversation and say you were to switch to blades. Do you think your scores would be impacted? Do you think your average GIR would decrease?

So I would argue for a high handicapper the short game is even more important because you are missing greens. Regardless of the type of iron being used, if you are unable to scramble the second shot doesn't matter.
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I think we are losing sight of a couple of things. Even with the short game, the goal is to get the ball over a hazard (water, bunker), in the air and get the ball on the green. As a high handicapper myself, I don't really care about GIR. I care about feeling good about getting the ball airborne and somewhat straight, which SGI and GI clubs are very good at helping with. I noticed this while trying out a handful of all kinds of clubs before buying the clubs I have last week. Mis-hits were horrible for me with the "tour" level clubs. I couldn't get the ball in the air nearly as often and I really felt those mis-hits in my hands and shoulders. The "sweet" spot on the GI and SGI clubs are larger and the CoG is different as well.

That being said, I remember watching a Youtube recently where a Club Pro was purposely mis-hitting with GI clubs and he was still getting distance and good directions with them. He also mentioned that if he tries this with the Tour Clubs, his results would be terrible, both in distance and direction.
 
sleuth said:
I'm really curious because I wonder how a persons chance for scrambling or recovering from inside 100yds would change across all handicaps.

Let's continue the conversation and say you were to switch to blades. Do you think your scores would be impacted? Do you think your average GIR would decrease?

So I would argue for a high handicapper the short game is even more important because you are missing greens. Regardless of the type of iron being used, if you are unable to scramble the second shot doesn't matter.
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In terms of irons, for me, unless being more forgiving means getting close to the pin somehow, just getting on the green doesn't tend to lower my scores as I am fairly proficient with my wedges. In the past year I've played GI irons (G5's) two sets of kind of mid level irons (825 pros, RSi2's) and more player type irons (J15 CB's) and none really changed my scores at all in respect to when I played/switched. Actually, my scores dropped a couple strokes going from the RSi2's to the J15 CB's, but it wasn't the irons doing it. I didn't see much of a difference in distance either way (well struck or miss hits), so either my miss hits just happen to be the right spot on the J15 CB's, or they really aren't that much difference forgiveness wise.

so IMO, for me, my scores wouldn't change much if at all if I played a round with newer blades. But I'd also consider myself a decent iron striker.

However...

For drivers/woods I think it's extremely important. I can't say enough about switching out my Cleveland Classic XL for the Great Big Bertha. My driving is crazy better now, and a lot of that has to do with how forgiving it is across the entire face.
 
I would drive with a wet fish if it left me in the middle of the fairway at the correct distance consistently.

I see a lot of players at my club who are using gear that just doesnt suit there game. For example one guy that has 5 wedges, played a few weeks ago together in comp and at the end of the round I asked why he'd never used them inside 100, said he doesnt really find the need for them and prefers to pitch and run... then said he has them just in case...
 
First and foremost, I;d like to say that it is refreshing to see threads like this where people arent personalizing by insulting others, and doing other sorts of creepy things. Same cant be said for the GolfWRX place where the inmates rule the asylum and threads like this are rife with personal attacks and typically either get locked up, moved to the cooler, or just deleted

Is forgiveness over rated? no way, unless someone thinks that buying more forgiveness will cure a bad game. As others have said, many/most of the pros embrace forgiving gear. Last I read, more than 75% of the pros use some sort of GI iron. Nothing at all to be gained by miss hitting more than miss hitting less.
 
I cant comment on another website, and I am sure Richard and team do a fine job there, but at THP, we are about keeping things fun and friendly.
One of the basis for creating THP Events and having the THP Tour Van was because we know that its harder to be a jerk to someone (meaning other THPers) if you want to play golf with them at one of our once in a lifetime events.
 
JB said:
I cant comment on another website, and I am sure Richard and team do a fine job there, but at THP, we are about keeping things fun and friendly.
One of the basis for creating THP Events and having the THP Tour Van was because we know that its harder to be a jerk to someone (meaning other THPers) if you want to play golf with them at one of our once in a lifetime events.
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Hell yes!!!!! Can I "thank" this more than once?


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