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Forgiveness overrated?

SuperStroke
Golf clubs, especially driver, need to be hit fairly well. Their forgiveness can only do so much and won't save a really bad swing.

This is amplified with the driver, because a few degrees of deviation from straight will increase considerably because of the length of the drive.
Whether you want forgiveness in distance or dispersion will depend on the conditions of the courses you normally play, whether they have narrow and penal fairways with lots of OB, where you'll need less dispersion, or wide and long fairways where you'll need distance.

Forgiveness is a general term and may not apply to everyone, for some reason, I seem to hit my semi-blade M P 52's better than my bigger-headed and supposedly more forgiving R9's. Go figure.
 
Forgiveness overrated?

This thread reminded me how far the driver technology has come in the last 20 years. I couldn't hit any driver I used back when I was 25 worth a flip. It was impossible for me to get the ball more than 20 yards high off the ground. I could pound a 3 wood with no problem. I remember hitting the R1 and the Callaway FT and razr hawk and finally seeing height in my drives. It was a wonderful thing. Today, no issues using driver thanks to technology. Everything produced in the last 5 years has more forgiveness than my old driver experiences.
 
I maybe going off on a tangent here, apologises.

Is it really forgiveness or just selecting the clubs that are right for you? Is forgiveness built into a club or does that word when associated with a club give you a mental assist whereby your more relaxed and swinging your swing as opposed to thinking I need to swing a perfect swing due to a lack of forgiveness? I think forgiveness is sometimes a marketing word or hype to get customers to buy the newest clubs being released, " *** range is our most forgiving yet". That statement can then trigger the "what if I had those? How low can I score and how low will my handicap drop?" thoughts. I've suffered from that and brought clubs that felt great in the store then I get on the range / course and found they are no different or worse than my current ones.

When I started playing again two years ago I brought G25 irons and driver at the time marketed as some of the most forgiving clubs out there. I couldn't hit and still can not hit a G25 driver, but I am getting reasonably consistent results with my 915 D2. Irons I struggled with the G25's brought Apex and it was like night and day, I've since changed to Z545's and seen another improvement. I think it was Jlukes that said something along the lines, he's hit shots dropped his head and groaned only to see the ball land roughly where he wanted it. I've had that with the 545's as well so there must be something in it but you still need to swing the club, like the look of it and it fit your swing, I've also had shots that felt great but ended up looking like I have never swung a club before.

I don't doubt clubs today are technically different from 20 years ago but is it forgiveness or are they more playable to a greater range of people due to the advances in technology and the materials now available? I'd be interested to see a old driver from 25 / 30 years ago replicated using todays materials and technology but built to the exact same specs and see how they compare.
 
jitzy said:
I know for me forgiveness comes with my driver when I hit it on the heal or toe and still end up in the fairway with a makable second shot.
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And that is something that you could not do 10,20, 30 years ago. I'll bet if half the worlds golfers today had to go back to the clubs we were playing in the early 1970's, most would give up the game today.

I look at my driver face after every shot, and then clean it and I had one off the toe today and one way back of center and both made the FW. You could not have done that with persimmon or even the first Callaway metal drivers.
 
what is this "fairway" you folk speak of? A myth, a legend, a place only unicorns go to strike balls? All I see are trees, long grass, sand...

I get where yeti is coming from in that there are days my swing feels precisely the same as the day before but the ball is flying 30-40 yards less than it was...or 30-40 yards further right. On the course I play most often 30-40 yards right is where you duck and start throwing hail mary's hoping to hear rooftop, not glass. On that course if the "forgiveness" is merely length, not direction, then it is very detrimental to my score as I end up laying 3 off the tee or just giving in to frustration and blasting a 7-iron off the tee(to be fair, the longest hole on the course is something like 360 so I can and often do reach it with 7i off the tee and 6i to the green...or, more likely one of the 3 sandtraps surrounding it)

The reason I go the 7 instead of the 6i or 5i is explicitly because the shorter distance usually keeps my slices/fades/hooks inbounds. Better to be laying 161 yards towards the hole in playable space than laying 3 off the tee with a driver that was 249ish down the fairway but 40 yards right and on someone's roof...(according to golfpad that is my average 7i, though 9 of the 14 recorded shots are closer to 170, it is pulled down by the 105 yarder I should have not recorded as it was a punch shot to get under some trees)
 
20 years ago I played a Callaway Big Bertha Warbird 9° at 43". I hit the ball around 290 when straight. Mishits would go more like 260-270 and typically about 10 yards right of the fairway. Now days I don't hit the ball as far but when I mishit it's still 10-15 yards shorter but that extra distance at the same angle off line now puts me much further off center and more likely to be dealing with trees, OB, water etc... etc... I get that many people would prefer to still have the length. I don't disagree that forgiveness helps, I just wonder if it helps as much as most people think.
 
I know I'm late to the conversation, but I think there is something to be said for forgiveness. I used to think oppositely but then I switch from the SLDR to the XR driver. The XR driver is much easier to keep in play and I think some of that has to do with the extent gear effect worked on each head. And even though the low, forward cg of the SLDR was supposed to make the ball carry more, I've hit my longest drives ever with the XR (336 with the XR versus 293 with the SLDR).

I do play a players iron, but they are still cavity backs and are not my weakest link on the course. I would probably shoot lower scores if I played an iron with a bigger face though. But I like my irons, especially the way they feel. And I think you have to be happy with your equipment if you even want to stand a chance on the course.
 
-CRW- said:
And I think you have to be happy with your equipment if you even want to stand a chance on the course.
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Exactly. Over the course of the last year, maybe two, I've tried to find a driver that I like better than my ZL Encore. The reason? As I have been told multiple times lately, I'm the "shortest white tees player" at my course. I only average about 215 - 220 yds. However, I'm very comfortable with my ZLE because I tend to be consistently accurate with it.

I've tried replacing it with a Bio Cell, but I'm wildly inaccurate with it, and no longer as well. Last week, I dumped my 58* wedge and carried both drivers. Using the BC exclusively on the front, I missed 7 of 7 fairways .... badly missed them. Switched to my ZLE on the back nine, and hit 7 of 7 ... and truly right down the center of each fairway. Some might say it's the shafts, while others might say it's the different heads. I think it's because I am so comfortable with the ZLE. Now if it could just magically start adding 20 yards per shot (heavy sigh).
 
YetiLooper said:
There's a reason I don't play my blades anymore, my game isn't what it used to be. I do think there is a point in a person's game where less forgiving irons do help a person dial in the precision in their game, but that isn't until a person is in the lower single digit handicap range. Obviously at that point players want more control of spin and shaping shots. For a typical player yes forgiveness is very good.
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Blades didn't help me get any better and I tried for over a year with them.

My best golf has been with Apex Pro irons. I can shape them (usually not on purpose and rarely on target) and they offer tons of forgiveness for being a "players" iron.

I'd venture to say blades hurt far more people than they ever help.
 
I like knowing I can get away with mishits on my clubs when in having a bad ball striking day.

Nothing is better to be than a pure shot
 
I just want to clarify something about the original premise... I didn't say forgiveness is unnecessary, I asked if it's over rated. To me those are 2 different issues. I was also speaking more primarily about drivers.

I think the thing that is interesting about golf is the players at the highest level don't take advantage of forgiveness in equipment as much as maybe they should.
 
YetiLooper said:
I think the thing that is interesting about golf is the players at the highest level don't take advantage of forgiveness in equipment as much as maybe they should.
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You could argue that its the opposite actually. With something like 76% of the tour using a hybrid or utility club, more players than ever using perimeter weighted clubs, etc.
 
JB said:
You could argue that its the opposite actually. With something like 76% of the tour using a hybrid or utility club, more players than ever using perimeter weighted clubs, etc.
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World #1 is using cavity irons with tungsten plugs in the toe
 
I say yes it over rated and no it is not. My driver I do not mind if it is forgiving. I like that a miss hit comes up much shorter mainly when I hit my U turn looking banana ball. Irons, I can enjoy some forgiveness in those.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
 
blugold said:
World #1 is using cavity irons with tungsten plugs in the toe
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I've always found it interesting that Titleist staffers seem to overwhelmingly pick the AP2, even though they could play the MB's or CB's if they wanted to.

Taylormades staffers almost all play a CB club similar to the AP2 in the RSi Forged.

The Bridgestone guys primarily play the J15 CB's over the MB's.

At least those have been my observations. Maybe I'm a little off, but it seems like there aren't many players using blades these days. And those that do aren't necessarily the most accurate iron players all the time either.
 
-CRW- said:
I've always found it interesting that Titleist staffers seem to overwhelmingly pick the AP2, even though they could play the MB's or CB's if they wanted to.

Taylormades staffers almost all play a CB club similar to the AP2 in the RSi Forged.

The Bridgestone guys primarily play the J15 CB's over the MB's.

At least those have been my observations. Maybe I'm a little off, but it seems like there aren't many players using blades these days. And those that do aren't necessarily the most accurate iron players all the time either.
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All of your observations are not coincidences. Weird how that works isn't it.
 
I'm a little confused in some of what I am reading here. I thought forgiveness was mostly about less dispersion. I thought it was to allow off-center hits (within reason) to stay a little straighter.
 
rollin said:
I'm a little confused in some of what I am reading here. I thought forgiveness was mostly about less dispersion. I thought it was to allow off-center hits (within reason) to stay a little straighter.
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I think that's just a small part of it (gear effect). When I read forgiveness my thoughts first go to ball speed retention on misses across or up/down the face.
 
There is no "true" definition of forgiveness. In the case of irons it's a larger sweet spot to maximize distance. Drivers are a much different animal though as they have multiple lofts up and down the face, plus a convex face to affect sidespin but also faces that keep ball speeds higher on lateral mishits. I think the shaft has as much or more in terms of being the right fit for distance and forgiveness for the individual.
 
I think the biggest thing guys need to realize is forgiveness can only do so much. If you hit a completely bad ball nothing is really gonna help you. If you hit a dead pull or cut across the ball slice the club isn't gonna do much but if you hit it square and just not in the center your gonna still have playable results. As much as everyone is looking for the magic club you still need to put a good swing on the ball.
 
Forgiveness isn't overrated in my experience. I'm probably the worst golfer on this forum so I need all the help I can get. My G15 driver at 12° is perfect for me. Also had the shaft trimmed to 44". I tried to hit my buddies 913 Titleist 9 degree and it was embarrassing. So for new golfers like me forgiveness is how we can have fun with the game until we get better. I don't care if people make fun of my equipment it works for me.
 
I was reading this post earlier today and it got me thinking. I am a 12 Hcp and my goal this season was to break 80 it is getting close to the end of the season and haven't been able to yet. My ball striking has been amazing but just can't hit GIR on the par 3/4's as I usually go left or right (all me in my alignment) I have been using my set of Taylormade MC/MB's.

So tonight I switched them out for my 2009 Burnes hoping the "forgiveness" would pay off and make up the difference!! It didn't...

Man, I couldn't hit a decent iron shot. The 3 solid ones I made felt like absolute garbage so clunky and not to mention looking down on those oversized cavity backs was hideous.

What I am getting at is play the clubs that feel good to you and don't worry about marketing/hype!!

I am so sorry MC/MB's I will never doubt you again!!


Scott
 
Sp.campbell said:
I was reading this post earlier today and it got me thinking. I am a 12 Hcp and my goal this season was to break 80 it is getting close to the end of the season and haven't been able to yet. My ball striking has been amazing but just can't hit GIR on the par 3/4's as I usually go left or right (all me in my alignment) I have been using my set of Taylormade MC/MB's.

So tonight I switched them out for my 2009 Burnes hoping the "forgiveness" would pay off and make up the difference!! It didn't...

Man, I couldn't hit a decent iron shot. The 3 solid ones I made felt like absolute garbage so clunky and not to mention looking down on those oversized cavity backs was hideous.

What I am getting at is play the clubs that feel good to you and don't worry about marketing/hype!!

I am so sorry MC/MB's I will never doubt you again!!


Scott
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So you played like garbage with the clunky burner cb set and had way better ball striking with your muscle backs. Forgiveness means zero to you go with the blades bro.
 
I think citing Spieths use of irons is kind of stating the exception as the norm. He also only plays the AP2 through 9iron then uses Vokey 47° as a pitching wedge. The majority of pros play MB or small cavity players irons, mostly forged offerings. Obviously in longer clubs say 3I, precision is more difficult and with world class players the ability around the green keeps them being more focused on just being close.

I think I should have titled this as "Over Hyped" instead of over rated. I'm of the opinion that swing flaws can only be accommodated on a minor scale through forgiveness. By no means did I try to say at any point that a 30 handicap player should be using blades and a Pro driver. I do believe though that less forgiving irons at a certain point can be beneficial to a low handicap player trying to go lower. I have seen studies online that show dispersion to be tighter with well struck blades compared to well stuck GI irons... Obviously the difference is going to be on the poorly struck shots.
 
As of last week, less than 24% of tour players use muscle back irons throughout. While this changes throughout the season, the number has continued to go down each and every year I believe in the last 10 years.
 
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