Golf Shafts: Does price reflect quality and performance in your mind?

[Vader]

Hahah no. Although think of brands like Oban, VA Composites, etc. They don't have a factory making shafts or any machinery. They are ordering shafts (and decent ones) from a factory to their own specs. I'm not saying that to make them out to be lessor, just that it can be done.

You just described the bourbon market. But I digress.

In my own personal experience, my GD shaft feels and performs better, than anything I've gamed. Worth every penny.

 

[Release]

Totally agree that a $400 shaft is better than the $100 shaft in the quality of both the material and the manufacturing process.
However, would the $400 shaft be 4 times better than the $100 shaft ? Would it have the same effect from a high speed golf swing to an average to a low speed golf swing ?
The professionals should have a larger impact from the improved quality of the better shaft , plus they have sponsorship, can write off the cost as business related expense, get it for free......Where the average golfer gets a low percentage of improvement on the performance with the better shaft, and have to deal with the dollars and cents involved.
To spend several times more on a shaft which potentially only yielding less than 5 % of improvements.... worth it ?
It'll be the opinion of the individual.

 

[BeCu_Ping]

I wonder what his take on shaft prices/technologies would be today? Robin Arthur video circa 2011 :

"XCaliber Golf Shafts - Robin Arthur"

 

[obedt]

I wonder how business model has a role in pricing. As an example True Sports- Px and Accra both make world class, top level shafts so this isn’t a comment on quality.

Px tends to cater to oems, and I’m sure eclipses Accra’s volume. Accra markets towards custom fitters. I have to think that volume difference represents a cost per unit savings as well.

 

[OITW]

I wonder how business model has a role in pricing. As an example True Sports- Px and Accra both make world class, top level shafts so this isn’t a comment on quality.

Px tends to cater to oems, and I’m sure eclipses Accra’s volume. Accra markets towards custom fitters. I have to think that volume difference represents a cost per unit savings as well.

that’s a great point - didn’t think of it like that but I think you’re on to something

 

[Jman]

I wonder how business model has a role in pricing. As an example True Sports- Px and Accra both make world class, top level shafts so this isn’t a comment on quality.

Px tends to cater to oems, and I’m sure eclipses Accra’s volume. Accra markets towards custom fitters. I have to think that volume difference represents a cost per unit savings as well.

I actually asked the Accra question during the Small Batch experience and DB got quite detailed on this.

It’s why the acquisition has so much potential. Accra will continue to function as they have, but now have access to the PX testing and production processes which not only means WAY faster prototyping and creation of their unique flexes that are SUPER small in quantity sold and often special ordered, but I would imagine also a change in production costs.

 

[obedt]

I actually asked the Accra question during the Small Batch experience and DB got quite detailed on this.

It’s why the acquisition has so much potential. Accra will continue to function as they have, but now have access to the PX testing and production processes which not only means WAY faster prototyping and creation of their unique flexes that are SUPER small in quantity sold and often special ordered, but I would imagine also a change in production costs.

That’s some good info James. Can’t see this as anything other than a positive for both sides (and us).

 

[Jman]

That’s some good info James. Can’t see this as anything other than a positive for both sides (and us).

Completely agree. And DB seems to feel the exact same way about it. It really rounds out TRUE sports in the shaft realm imo.

 

[MonroeBob1955]

I suppose price can reflect quality and performance of a shaft. But, in my experience, I have not seen results to support that as applicable to me.


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[KingSinghUNLTD]

No, just like cheaper pharmaceuticals from countries other than US are in no way inferior - the US Advil and Canadian ibuprofen are exact same thing.

 

[Templet0n]

Like most things I think it’s hard not assume that more money = better.
I do think it holds true to some extent, but I don’t think you can’t make a good shaft for an inexpensive prices.

I think that is because in almost every case the old adage "you get what you pay for" is absolutely true. I have found that to be the case with golf shafts. Now, I also as a fitter see that the majority of golfers are not consistent or accurate enough for them to warrant spending $300+ on after market shafts. They are just fine with stock.

 

[Templet0n]

Well, based on what I heard last week at the small batch event, there definitely are shafts at much different price points that have nearly identical playing characteristics. Sometimes, the extra expense is justified by a little “pixie dust” added to the materials, but in reality, the shafts are almost the same shaft.

the perfect example of this is the small batch or hand made. They are exactly the same as the none small hand made batch shaft. Just different paint jobs and one is or was made in San Diego.

Now the other side of that is all the made for shafts you see. Especially with TM heads. They are watered down and low price point variations of the real thing. They can be very inconsistent and pretty bad shafts.

 

[JB]

No, just like cheaper pharmaceuticals from countries other than US are in no way inferior - the US Advil and Canadian ibuprofen are exact same thing.

Im not sure I understand the analogy used. It would work if we said here are two of the same shaft made in different plants, but you don’t believe there are any materials, etc that cost more than others? For instance T1100 should cost the same as T700?

 

[just8abug]

I would like to see the actual cost of making a $100 vs. $300 shaft. I've heard (youtube vid) that there is an enormous markup with shafts in general. Sure there is more tech and better materials in expensive shafts but that being said, the OEM, overhead and marketing also play a big role in retail price. Some things are just worse than others. Jewelry vs. TV's for example.

 

[DG_1234]

I was at the range yesterday swinging a couple of drivers, one with a Graphite Design MT shaft and another with a GD DJ shaft. No "Made For" shaft I've ever swung comes close
to combining the silky smooth dynamic feel , yet with controlled shot dispersion, that these shafts offer. For me the enjoyment of swinging these shafts makes them worth their price.
That said, my scoring average is the same whether I play my Graphite Design or my less expensive shafts.

 

[DG_1234]

I can appreciate a golf shaft that performs equally to a "higher end" shaft at a lower price. Then, i personally can't justify the price of the more expensive shaft.

But how does one define "performance"?
For me Graphite Design Tour shafts "feel" sensational throughout the swing, including impact. However the shot results, including trajectory, distance, accuracy etc... are comparable to shafts costing 1/3rd of the Graphite Design shafts price.

 

[ddec]

I should say no because I've seen good performance out of shafts like Aldila NV and XCalliber options. But there is definitely a feeling that price gives better materials which will perform better. I know that's not always the case, but hard not to fall in to that trap.

 

[DG_1234]

About the concept of eliminating "Made For" shafts I've talked to a couple of major OEM executive employees, as well as a two graphite shaft company executives.
All admit there is significant materials quality and cost-of-production difference between "Made For" and aftermarket shafts. But, they all agree the shot performance difference is so relatively small that the overwhelming majority of consumers would not notice and, or, appreciate replacing the "Made For" business model with more expensive "Real-Aftermarket" shafts.
That said, I do think OEM's who do not currently have significant driver-fairway-hybrid market share might try changing their current business sales model (from finished clubs to heads-only), because when paired with aftermarket shafts there is a chance these OEM's could get some woods market sales traction.

 

[JB]

About the concept of eliminating "Made For" shafts I've talked to a couple of major OEM executive employees, as well as a two graphite shaft company executives.
All admit there is significant materials quality and cost-of-production difference between "Made For" and aftermarket shafts.

Who did you speak with? That’s seems quite a bit off with anything recent in the golf industry. Isn’t hard to verify though since most are members of this forum and all host THP Experiences with us.

 

[Templet0n]

Who did you speak with? That’s seems quite a bit off with anything recent in the golf industry. Isn’t hard to verify though since most are members of this forum and all host THP Experiences with us.

I know from speaking with more than a few individuals that Made for shafts are produced at a lower cost and lower quality than their aftermarket namesake. Look at the Atmos orange shaft that is in the current TM m5/M6 line as an example. That is a low cost shaft, produced for taylormade that is not even on the Fuji website. It is not the same as the aftermarket atmos red/blue or TS versions. Generally made for or OEM products have much thinner walls and much higher torque than the aftermarket shafts of the same name.

LA Golf that produces matrix shafts does not want to even play in this market. They have zero interest is producing OEM products and want to play strictly in the aftermarket world.

This is not a knock a or slam on these OEM shafts. They are producing these shafts to fit as wide of a range of golfer as possible, they are also doing it to get their shafts and the stock shaft in these heads and sell as many products as possible. It is a simple market strategy. Produce products at every level of the market.

 

[JB]

I know from speaking with more than a few individuals that Made for shafts are produced at a lower cost and lower quality than their aftermarket namesake. Look at the Atmos orange shaft that is in the current TM m5/M6 line as an example. That is a low cost shaft, produced for taylormade that is not even on the Fuji website. It is not the same as the aftermarket atmos red/blue or TS versions. Generally made for or OEM products have much thinner walls and much higher torque than the aftermarket shafts of the same name.

LA Golf that produces matrix shafts does not want to even play in this market. They have zero interest is producing OEM products and want to play strictly in the aftermarket world.

This is not a knock a or slam on these OEM shafts. They are producing these shafts to fit as wide of a range of golfer as possible, they are also doing it to get their shafts and the stock shaft in these heads and sell as many products as possible. It is a simple market strategy. Produce products at every level of the market.

But its not called the Atmos Blue or Red. Different shaft completely.
Matrix shafts don’t really exist anymore, but LA Golf did run their final lineup and obviously that is changing with the prototypes that THPers tested for Oly. I remember when we broke the story on Matrix closing and people said we were crazy haha.

I would love to know the executives from shaft companies (knowing shaft companies that even sounds weird haha) that would say there is a cost of production difference. Knowing how shafts are made and seeing THPers do it every single year at THP Events, that is a fairly bold statement. Mandrels dont all of the sudden get cheaper. Workforce doesn’t all of the sudden make more, etc.

There are some shafts that are designed specifically for products, and normally that comes in at both design and materials compared to their tour level counterparts, but even that has changed drastically in the recent years for most companies when you think about the sheer amount of custom options available.

I’m genuinely curious who was spoken with, or at least the company, because it would be a great topic and question at the Experiences we do with everybody where it is always high level people that are open books with THPers and this community.

 

[3_putt]

Overpriced. No one is asking manufacturers to sell their products for a loss, but markup I believe is way more than I am willing to give in. Specially for a recreational golfer like me.

 

[Templet0n]

But its not called the Atmos Blue or Red. Different shaft completely.
Matrix shafts don’t really exist anymore, but LA Golf did run their final lineup and obviously that is changing with the prototypes that THPers tested for Oly. I remember when we broke the story on Matrix closing and people said we were crazy haha.

I would love to know the executives from shaft companies (knowing shaft companies that even sounds weird haha) that would say there is a cost of production difference. Knowing how shafts are made and seeing THPers do it every single year at THP Events, that is a fairly bold statement. Mandrels dont all of the sudden get cheaper. Workforce doesn’t all of the sudden make more, etc.

There are some shafts that are designed specifically for products, and normally that comes in at both design and materials compared to their tour level counterparts, but even that has changed drastically in the recent years for most companies when you think about the sheer amount of custom options available.

I’m genuinely curious who was spoken with, or at least the company, because it would be a great topic and question at the Experiences we do with everybody where it is always high level people that are open books with THPers and this community.

Alex Dee at Fuji.

You are correct that Matrix as a company is gone, but it is a line of shafts that still exist.

I wish I was able to quote him and others exactly, but I can't. I have to be careful about putting words in their mouths and misquoting. it generally boils down to that anything that is a "made for" or a for OEM product is watered down, and in some cases (atmos orange) a completely different product that is riding the name of a aftermarket tour proven product. These are produced to fit OEM price structures, and program constraints.

This all makes sense because you can't put $300-$500 shafts into drivers as the stock shaft hitting the shelves and sell to many of them. Drivers would all cost $800 if that was the case. They have to find high volume, low'er cost options.

To some extent this is going away. Many drivers have great stock options these days. For example, mizuno offered the Atmos TS as stock, the pro smoke X black and yellow options that have been in drivers are great! the Pro X even flow series are great!

So this by no means is to say EVERY stock shaft is crap. That is not the case. I apologize if I came across that way. There are also made for or OEM program shafts that will work great for a lot of people. Just do your homework and know what you are getting.

 

[JB]

Alex Dee at Fuji.

I wish I was able to quote him and other exactly, but I can't. I have to be careful about putting words in their mouths and misquoting. it generally boils down to that anything that is a "made for" or a for OEM product is watered down, and in some cases (atmos orange) a completely different product that is riding the name of a aftermarket tour proven product. These are produced to fit OEM price structures, and program constraints.

This all makes sense because you can't put $300-$500 shafts into drivers as the stock shaft hitting the shelves and sell to many of them. Drivers would all cost $800 if that was the case. They have to find high volume, low'er cost options.

To some extent this is going away. Many drivers have great stock options these days. For example, mizuno offered the Atmos TS as stock, the pro smoke X black and yellow options that have been in drivers are great! the Pro X even flow series are great!

So this by no means is to say EVERY stock shaft is crap. That is not the case. I apologize if I came across that way. There are also made for or OEM program shafts that will work great for a lot of people. Just do your homework and know what you are getting.

That is not exactly it, but that doesnt answer the question I asked the above poster who said he talked directly about production cost from both OEM and shaft companies. And watered down is a bit differnt now with the current state of shafts, because an Orange is not the same as a Blue or Red, although with Fuji anything is possible as of late...

But using the costs of $300-$500 for aftermarket and saying that would be the cost at stock is not real numbers. Example. Car manufacturer puts Android tablet as media screen in cars. Do you think they are paying the same thing for the same tablet when they are buying 200,000 of them vs you going into Best Buy and buying one? That doesnt change the materials, that is cost/benefit analysis.

Now add in looking through just about every major OEM and seeing their extensive shaft catalogue, many of which are no cost upgrades, and nobody should think every one of these products is some cheap example. Another example of this is PING and Miyazaki. Neither own a shaft rolling plant, yet both use products made specifically for their products and only for their products. Are they viewed as cheaper or lessor? Not by the person who made the same statement that a number of executives said that they are cheaper materials and production.

Going back a few years, there were a number of companies guilty of this. Fuji and Matrix being right at the top of the class (ironically both major suppliers for the largest OEM at the time). Products that didn’t stand up with very little discerning difference in aesthetics. I know myself and @ddec have stood in these production rooms and asked the hard questions about the “made for” internet talk. It is so much better now and companies are preaching the benefits of fitting.

 

[Jman]

Alex Dee at Fuji.

You are correct that Matrix as a company is gone, but it is a line of shafts that still exist.

I wish I was able to quote him and others exactly, but I can't. I have to be careful about putting words in their mouths and misquoting. it generally boils down to that anything that is a "made for" or a for OEM product is watered down, and in some cases (atmos orange) a completely different product that is riding the name of a aftermarket tour proven product. These are produced to fit OEM price structures, and program constraints.

This all makes sense because you can't put $300-$500 shafts into drivers as the stock shaft hitting the shelves and sell to many of them. Drivers would all cost $800 if that was the case. They have to find high volume, low'er cost options.

To some extent this is going away. Many drivers have great stock options these days. For example, mizuno offered the Atmos TS as stock, the pro smoke X black and yellow options that have been in drivers are great! the Pro X even flow series are great!

So this by no means is to say EVERY stock shaft is crap. That is not the case. I apologize if I came across that way. There are also made for or OEM program shafts that will work great for a lot of people. Just do your homework and know what you are getting.

Aftermarket shafts make up very very very little of sales. And those don’t cost NEAR what people think they do to produce, not even a fraction of it.