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How much are you willing to pay for extra distance off the tee???

sandiegonative

sandiegonative

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Alright guys, my first topic (sorry for the length). I want your honest opinion and by all means do not go easy on me. With that said, please check your emotions at the door as this is NOT a knock on Taylormade Golf or any other OEM...

Taylormade Loft Up+ Education Video (0:22-0:30 mark) states 17*/1700 RPM is "the holy grail of launch conditions"

Callaway Talks - Big Bertha Alpha Driver Video (1:10-1:30 mark) states a "600 RPM or more adjustment in RPM on backspin with the Gravity Core"

The Main Question: If you are properly fit, how much distance can you actually gain with a SLDR or Big Bertha Alpha Driver if you were previously properly fit in your current gamer?

Foundations for my thoughts:
  1. Your Swing Speed and Smash Factor are maxed out. That means you do NOT gain ball speed between different drivers.
  2. You've been properly fit into your existing driver. Again, that means you do NOT gain ball speed between different drivers.
  3. Launch Angle is the angle the ball takes off relative to the ground.

Directions using the Flightscope Trajectory Optimzer (medium surface type):
  1. Shot #1 - Enter your current Launch speed, Launch Angle (V), Spin and leave other fields blank. Click display shot.
  2. Shot #2 - Enter your current Launch speed, Launch Angle (V) of 17, Spin of 1700 and leave other fields blank. Click display shot.

How much did you actually gain in distance?

Sample, using Trackman's average numbers (ball speed of 167 MPH, launch angle of 10.9 degrees, and spin of 2686 RPM) for a PGA Tour Player with the Flightscope Trajectory Optimzer yields the following:
  1. Shot #1 - 283.0 yards of carry and a total distance of 294.3 yards
  2. Shot #2 (TM SLDR assuming 17/1700) - 296.9 yards of carry and a total distance 310.1 yard (5.4% gain over Shot #1)

How much would you pay for a 5-6% gain in overall distance? Any additional Thoughts? Comments?
 
Everybody always wants more distance off the tee
there are a lot of factors at play especially swing differences and AoA even if you are fit to your current gamer a different driver may yield better results
 
Not me.....I play for a workout. Scratch players are lazy, 36 handicap players are workhorses and much healthier.




I kid, I kid.................:banana:
 
Using that tool, at 150 ball speed, I see 251 carry at 14* and 2500 rpm

255 carry at 17* and 1700 rpm, not a lot of difference

At 25* and 1500 rpm I see 268.2 carry, yes please!
 
How about some real world numbers? Both drivers used I was fit to.

Callaway RFX - 155.5mph, 11.4* LA, ~2800rpm and 270y carry.

Callaway BBA - 156.5mph, 10.5* LA, ~2250rpm and 285y of carry.

So 15 yards or so for me plus roll. I paid about $30....I traded old stuff in and got 50% more than value. Was it worth it? Jury is still out for me.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
 
BamBooBender said:
At 25* and 1500 rpm I see 268.2 carry, yes please!
Click to expand...

It would be tough to find a combo that would yield 25* and 1500 RPM, short of hitting off of a really high tee with a really positive angle of attack. More loft generates more backspin, that's just part of the deal. Thankfully, the new low-spin heads will have less spin at those higher lofts, cutting down on balooning. Just maybe not 26 and 1500 :)
 
Numbers don't lie, but sometimes are hard to generate or repeat. Tech associated in generating ball speed with the same human numbers does have value. Added distance is not high on my personal list, fairways with a good mix of distance are. With options that OEMS are offering, they give you a great mix in components and shafts w/o an upcharge. I guess it would depend on differential as to how much I would be willing to spend on the optimal combo when talking aftermarket custom.
 
What the topic fails to address is one that many fail to address when discussing whether or not new drivers are better than old since certain aspects are maxed out. That is forgiveness. And more importantly how close other areas of the face are to maxing out or mimmicking the max out of the sweet spot.

There can be only one balance point on a golf club face, but through the movement of weight, use of different materials in spots, etc, things have changed quite a bit. Now I know that on the internet most people never miss the sweet spot, but in real golf, played at THP Events and other places, it happens from time to time. Yet for some reason, golfers chase certain launch numbers because they hear "fitting" and assume that that is what is important. When in reality the total picture is important and one of those factors (overlooked so often on the interwebs and poor fitters) is what happens when a golfer misses the balance point by half an inch in any direction?
 
JB I AGREE 100%. So, how do we measure "forgiveness"? What is the sample size before we can say "the average distance (including the misses) being yielded is a good representative of what DRIVER X or Z" really is?

Take the SLDR. No where do you see TM advertising forgiveness. It's all about gaining distance. My thought is at what cost?


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rtparty said:
How about some real world numbers? Both drivers used I was fit to.

Callaway RFX - 155.5mph, 11.4* LA, ~2800rpm and 270y carry.

Callaway BBA - 156.5mph, 10.5* LA, ~2250rpm and 285y of carry.

So 15 yards or so for me plus roll. I paid about $30....I traded old stuff in and got 50% more than value. Was it worth it? Jury is still out for me.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Your gain of 15 yds falls in the 5-6% gain that I described earlier.

I'm assuming the jury is still out due to consistency/forgiveness? Please elaborate.

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Brianbigoats said:
Everybody always wants more distance off the tee
there are a lot of factors at play especially swing differences and AoA even if you are fit to your current gamer a different driver may yield better results
Click to expand...

Why do you think one's AoA would change from driver to driver if properly fit to begin with? And even so, wouldn't that just get their LA closer to TM's 17/1700?

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
 
sandiegonative said:
JB I AGREE 100%. So, how do we measure "forgiveness"? What is the sample size before we can say "the average distance (including the misses) being yielded is a good representative of what DRIVER X or Z" really is?

Take the SLDR. No where do you see TM advertising forgiveness. It's all about gaining distance. My thought is at what cost?


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

At the THP Ultimate Club Testing with TaylorMade this year they spoke about the forgiveness of the SLDR. That is the million dollar question as it pertains to marketing and club building. Every company can use the term forgiveness differently because its impossible to measure. Cupped face brings one aspect of it, but its not the human aspect of swing flaws.

FWIW, with the exception of Cobra, I dont see too many companies marketing forgiveness. Callaway did with the XHot line sort of (more distance from everywhere). But the general rule is the average consumer likes over the top marketing about distance. Harry Arnett touched on this in the THP Radio episode last month.

As a general rule, I dont view drivers the same as most. Terms such as hot face are a fallacy and ridiculous when you think about it. I want a driver that performs the best when I am both hitting it ideally and not. Its why we test drivers on the launch monitor outside at the course. Its why we host THP Events and let people test what they want on the same launch monitor. And its why we put the clubs in the hands of people here to do reviews as well.

Hearing from the masses is very important.
 
sandiegonative said:
JB I AGREE 100%. So, how do we measure "forgiveness"? What is the sample size before we can say "the average distance (including the misses) being yielded is a good representative of what DRIVER X or Z" really is?

Take the SLDR. No where do you see TM advertising forgiveness. It's all about gaining distance. My thought is at what cost?


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Persoanlly, I don't think "forgiveness" is a good marketing strategy. The average golfer wants to hit it as far as the pros. "Distance" sells more clubs. Unfortunately, I would venture to say that most consumers are not as golf educated as our THP members and probably don't think about fittings and forgiveness.

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baldguy said:
It would be tough to find a combo that would yield 25* and 1500 RPM, short of hitting off of a really high tee with a really positive angle of attack. More loft generates more backspin, that's just part of the deal. Thankfully, the new low-spin heads will have less spin at those higher lofts, cutting down on balooning. Just maybe not 26 and 1500 :)
Click to expand...

I get that, just messin around with the Flightscope Optimizer. I have found that doing the bolded part does gain me some extra distance. It also caused to me toe shank a couple shots out into the parking lot on the course once, so I don't try that stunt on the course anymore. Pretty embarrassing, to say the least.
 
I guess I'm willing to pay a pretty penny. Lessons $$, equipment $, fitness $. I would do it all again given the choice too. But if I found a club that gave me 14 fairways, I may need a small loan.

Honestly I think I've lost distance off the Tee with lessons because I've had to learn a different swing mechanics that seem to be be keeping me in play a higher percentage. Scores are dropping so that's always a good thing.
 
Getting back OT, I would buy a new driver if I could get 5-6% more distance on average, and not hurting me dispersion wise.
 
I'm getting back to the game after an injury. At this stage of my recovery and re-learning, my ball speed is 129mph. Current driver (which I was not fitted for, I bought it from a friend just to try it): 202 carry, 208 total. 17/1700: 200 carry (-2), 216 total (+8). Being more realistic, setting the ground as soft, the difference is only 4 yards. My swing to swing variation is bigger than that, so no deal. On the other hand, playing with the optimizer, 23/2500 would give me 9 yards more carry, if such a thing exists. (I'm going to see the x2hot 3w on a demo day in a couple of weeks.) On the current market, no club costs so much that I wouldn't buy it to gain 9 yards, assuming that the "wildness" does not increase.

Still, 6mph increase to club head speed and a new high lofted driver (20 deg launch) with a low spin shaft and ball (2500 spin) would give me 26 yards more carry. Again, a set of lessons and a new club cost way less than I'm willing to pay for that.
 
JB said:
At the THP Ultimate Club Testing with TaylorMade this year they spoke about the forgiveness of the SLDR. That is the million dollar question as it pertains to marketing and club building. Every company can use the term forgiveness differently because its impossible to measure. Cupped face brings one aspect of it, but its not the human aspect of swing flaws.

FWIW, with the exception of Cobra, I dont see too many companies marketing forgiveness. Callaway did with the XHot line sort of (more distance from everywhere). But the general rule is the average consumer likes over the top marketing about distance. Harry Arnett touched on this in the THP Radio episode last month.

As a general rule, I dont view drivers the same as most. Terms such as hot face are a fallacy and ridiculous when you think about it. I want a driver that performs the best when I am both hitting it ideally and not. Its why we test drivers on the launch monitor outside at the course. Its why we host THP Events and let people test what they want on the same launch monitor. And its why we put the clubs in the hands of people here to do reviews as well.

Hearing from the masses is very important.
Click to expand...

First and foremost, I am enjoying the dialogue with you. I appreciate your perspective :drinks:

Do you mind sharing what TM stated in regards to SLDR forgiveness? I've taken some Web-Based Trainings, looked on their website, and etc. and never is Forgiveness/MOI/Consistency mentioned? The closest thing is the inverted cone technology, right?

I respectfully disagree in regards to Callaway. They used "distance plus forgiveness" to market the 2014 Big Bertha and Big Bertha Alpha Drivers. I pulled the following statements from their website:

  1. Hyper Speed Face (BB) - Nothing short of groundbreaking – it’s lighter, hotter (of course), and more robust than ever. So we can increase ball speeds across the face in a Total Performance Driver. You probably hit it dead center every time. But even if you don’t, we have you covered.
  2. Hyper Speed Face (BBA) - A revolutionary new face design – it’s larger, and more robust than ever to increase ball speeds across the face. Expect longer drives, more consistently.
  3. Adjustable Perimeter Weighting (BB) - We’ve put our new continuous Adjustable Perimeter Weighting slide toward the rear of the club. That’s why Big Bertha has 20% higher MOI for more forgiveness AND a wider range of Draw and Fade bias options. It all amounts to longer, straighter shots. And those are good things. Very, very good things if you like outdriving your foursome.
  4. Advanced Adjustable Hosel (Both) - Here’s the quick 3-step process. Step 1: Increase or decrease loft in 1° increments (up to +2° or down -1°) to optimize launch angle and spin. Step 2: Adjust Draw or Neutral bias to optimize shot shape. Step 3: Hit absolute bombs off the tee, maximizing distance with more accuracy. Players really seem to like step 3.
  5. Forged Composite (Both) - It’s a high strength, lightweight crown that improbably weighs only 8 grams. And here’s what we get by saving weight in the crown: Adjustable Perimeter Weighting, a deeper CG for more forgiveness, and low spin with a lighter, more preferred swing weight. Yep, you really get all that. That’s why when you add more adjustability to a driver, you’ve got to have Forged Composite.

I tested (range session) both Big Bertha and Big Bertha Alpha Drivers before purchasing the Big Bertha Driver. Like you distance was NOT a huge factor. For me forgiveness, consistency, and workability were more important.

Thanks again JB.
 
sandiegonative said:
Why do you think one's AoA would change from driver to driver if properly fit to begin with? And even so, wouldn't that just get their LA closer to TM's 17/1700?

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Click to expand...

I think that AoA can change depending on head shape, size, static loft, CG and weight of the perticular head. we are not robots so they way you feel looking down at a driver can influence your swing from causing you to swing more down on the ball resulting in a -AoA or trying to help it up and creating a positive AoA
 
FWIW, I was discussing how a club is marketed, not the tech specs listed on the website. Listing the adjustability of a club like Callaway is wonderful and their wording uses the term forgiveness. But keep in mind that TaylorMade also lists all of their adjustability of each club. So does every other company.

ICT is what they tout about forgiveness and discuss it often with just about every single club they release.

If you want to talk about just what companies list on their website, I can do that. Here is a piece directly under a TaylorMade driver.

JetSpeed is the first-ever driver to incorporate TaylorMade’s renowned Speed Pocket technology. Why put the Speed Pocket in a driver, which is already at the COR limit of .822? In this case the Speed Pocket is engineered to promote less spin. JetSpeed’s Speed Pocket also offers a huge performance advantage when impact is made low on the face, where most driver mis-hits occur. With most drivers, low impact generates too much spin, making the ball fly too high and land short. JetSpeed’s Speed Pocket is engineered to minimize that added spin dramatically, to give you more distance. You’ll get a noticeable boost in power when you catch it thin. And when you hit it center-face? Ba-boom.

Here is another.

SLDR is built to help you hit longer/straighter drives by promoting a high launch angle, lower spin-rate and faster ball speed.

If that is not about forgiveness, I am not sure what is. While I am not promoting any product in this, I hit everything and play what I think works best for me, which right now is a Callaway driver, but I think you might be looking at this the wrong way.
 
Whilst the title refers to money, that is secondary to my choice if clubs, I'm 100% sure that no club can give me the distance gain that a better swing can. The distance gain that can be received is a rarity, almost a fluke, with my swing anyway. What it comes down is feel, comfort and trust. Sure, the honeymoon is always sweet, but there's clubs that is said to give lots of extra distance, I just couldn't get that distance since the clubs felt horrible to swing, the impact was harsh and nothing that would have encouraged me.
What I would pay several hundreds for, is feel, comfort and forgiveness in form of consistency.
I know that with the best swing my body can produce, I could gain 50-100 yards more, that I would pay lot for. My distance handicap is more time based than based on a few hundred bucks.
 
sandiegonative said:
How much would you pay for a 5-6% gain in overall distance? Any additional Thoughts? Comments?
Click to expand...

generally Speaking I guess we pay $399 minus trade in or ebay of the old driver for those who upgrade to the New technologies--honestly this is just for the promise of potentially more distance. This is assuming we are only looking to a change in technology for the distance change versus swing lessons etc. If you count lessons then I would say its a lot more $ than that.
 
I have 5 criteria when looking at any clubs, and I use this same criteria when I fit someone.
1. Look--better love it!
2. Feel-- Better love it more!
3. Ease of swing---not worth it if not easier.
4. Accuracy--if not more accurate or if you are already accurate with old club, then at least as accurate.
5. Distance....get #1-4 on the list...you will get #5.

that said...SHAFT IS HUGE in this discussion. If the shaft is fit properly and puts the face on the ball consistently and gives you another 10-15 yards..just as accurately...big decision here...that is a club less into a green. Distance wise this is my 'fine-line', if you are not closer to the hole enough to get a shorter stick out for the approach, why bother. There are exceptions, if more accurate and easier to hit fairways and less work to swing, then it may be worth it.

I for one would never advocate someone with a consistently good swing to alter it to adjust to a club makers ideals on launch conditions. Loft should get that done, but just the same, some are not going to like looking at 12-14* loft on some drivers....some may.

I have told many people to not be rushing to buy a driver simply since new and marketed to give them more...testing is a much and if the distance is not gained with their current swing...no sale.

I currently play a 9* head, LA is around 13.5-14.5 and spin around 2300-2500 rpms. Get plenty of distance, not sure I can get more without changing my swing and at that rate, wouldn't.
 
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For new equipment, I try to stay reasonably close to cost neutral. Sell some things, buy some things. It's not really about distance at that point.

Being able to have a better more consistent swing is something that matters to me, produces more distance, and is something I have and will continue to happily pay for through lessons and instructions.
 
Measured a couple of drives in my last round with my GPS. Between 270 and 280 which is further than I thought. Quite a bit further actually. I also hit 64% of fairways (there were obviously a couple of non driver holes but not many). Therefor I'm sticking with what I've got. I'm not prepared to pay a cent!!! :)
 
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