NEWS OWGR Says No to LIV Golf

[Nice 2]

The question for me, is if LIV get points, is it possible due to their closed shop and guaranteed points for everyone every LIV tournament that it could artificially inflate the rankings of their members? It will take a while but once they start elevating surely it just continues to climb regardless of quality as strength of field will just continue to rise? Then you get Piot and Uhlein top 50 when theyre nowhere near that quality

All that would indicate is that they didn’t get the formula right, which would come as no surprise. Would be just another example of the uselessness of the OWGR organization.

If what you said happened, I would be thinking maybe they really were to dumb to figure out how to do it correctly.

 

[bulls9999]

All that would indicate is that they didn’t get the formula right, which would come as no surprise. Would be just another example of the uselessness of the OWGR organization.

If what you said happened, I would be thinking maybe they really were to dumb to figure out how to do it correctly.

I would have suggested that OWGR allocate points but pro-rate it based on which of their requirements were not met:

• Most OWGR-point-allocated tours have 150-ish in normal fields (75 avg required overall)... so 48/150 = <1/3 points (factor 1),
• Also, have a 36-hole cut (or just a cut anywhere), LIV does not, so 1/2 point allocation factor here (factor 2),
• Also, most have a method of outside qualifying to get access to tournament play, that doesn't guarantee every LIV player a spot in the field if they don't play well enought, so <factor 3> that in.

Os some type of algorithm to offset the points they would get per some percentage of players in their field per event relative to those tours that meet the criteria. Phil's gesture of 12 (out of 48 = 25%) is ridiculous. It is likely the better players would be sweeping up points faster than any other tour; try your hand at tournaments with 3x as many players in the field and with a half field haircut mid-way.

Why doesn't LIV adopt a 4-round tournament plan, have team play end after 3rd round where they include a cut; the portion of the field that makes the cut goes on to play for the individual titles; that way "LIV" Roman numerals can still stand for 54-holes..... the cut mark. Have another 'minor league' tournament event kind of like the Kornferry Tour where the top 8 players (after some amount of tournament play.... 4 tournaments?) week get into the LIV tournament and bump the lower 8 guys there (who are allowed to play the lower tier league). Anybody could have come up with something that would have been more palatable to the OWGR point allocation that the way they backhandedly treated OWGR.

 

[jjjgolf500]

All that would indicate is that they didn’t get the formula right, which would come as no surprise. Would be just another example of the uselessness of the OWGR organization.

If what you said happened, I would be thinking maybe they really were to dumb to figure out how to do it correctly.

How would you know when the formula is right? Lets say Cam Smith has a stretch in which he wins 4 LIV events in a row and has a 35th place finish at the Masters mixed in. In one scenario he moves to #1 in the world. In another he only moves up to #10. Would either be acceptable?

I like Bryson's idea that the majors should just give "X" amount of spots to LIVs top ranked players. Because no matter what the OWGR does, one side is going to feel slighted imo.

 

[Greg Kulbick]

The question for me, is if LIV get points, is it possible due to their closed shop and guaranteed points for everyone every LIV tournament that it could artificially inflate the rankings of their members? It will take a while but once they start elevating surely it just continues to climb regardless of quality as strength of field will just continue to rise? Then you get Piot and Uhlein top 50 when theyre nowhere near that quality

They are 84 and 71, respectively, on the SI rankings.

Regardless, the math is there to accommodate accurately ranking LIV players. They've said as much, they just don't want to. "Add average field size and relegation and promotion." I'm paraphrasing, but that's what was asked and LIV did it, OWGR just doesn't agree with the extent of how much.

 

[Nice 2]

I would have suggested that OWGR allocate points but pro-rate it based on which of their requirements were not met:

• Most OWGR-point-allocated tours have 150-ish in normal fields (75 avg required overall)... so 48/150 = <1/3 points (factor 1),
• Also, have a 36-hole cut (or just a cut anywhere), LIV does not, so 1/2 point allocation factor here (factor 2),
• Also, most have a method of outside qualifying to get access to tournament play, that doesn't guarantee every LIV player a spot in the field if they don't play well enought, so <factor 3> that in.

Os some type of algorithm to offset the points they would get per some percentage of players in their field per event relative to those tours that meet the criteria. Phil's gesture of 12 (out of 48 = 25%) is ridiculous. It is likely the better players would be sweeping up points faster than any other tour; try your hand at tournaments with 3x as many players in the field and with a half field haircut mid-way.

Why doesn't LIV adopt a 4-round tournament plan, have team play end after 3rd round where they include a cut; the portion of the field that makes the cut goes on to play for the individual titles; that way "LIV" Roman numerals can still stand for 54-holes..... the cut mark. Have another 'minor league' tournament event kind of like the Kornferry Tour where the top 8 players (after some amount of tournament play.... 4 tournaments?) week get into the LIV tournament and bump the lower 8 guys there (who are allowed to play the lower tier league). Anybody could have come up with something that would have been more palatable to the OWGR point allocation that the way they backhandedly treated OWGR.

It’s up to owgr folks to figure all that out, it’s their job.

 

[Nice 2]

How would you know when the formula is right? Lets say Cam Smith has a stretch in which he wins 4 LIV events in a row and has a 35th place finish at the Masters mixed in. In one scenario he moves to #1 in the world. In another he only moves up to #10. Would either be acceptable?

I like Bryson's idea that the majors should just give "X" amount of spots to LIVs top ranked players. Because no matter what the OWGR does, one side is going to feel slighted imo.

It is the owgr folks job to figure all that out.

Like Bill Belichick once said, “just do your job”

 

[70sSanO]

I think OWGR already did their job, made a decision, and put out a report.

I'm not aware of any appeal process, but LIV can probably re-apply once they have implemented what they believe are changes needed.

I don't see OWGR moving from their position, regardless of what LIV wants, LIV player suggestions, or how many posts call them stupid, obsolete, or needing to be abolished. Most likely none of them have read any of this here or on any other forum.

John

 

[70sSanO]

If people really want to make things change, organize a boycott of the majors until a certain number, top 12, of LIV golfers are included in the field.

If nothing else it will be a metric on the extent of the support, or lack of support, for LIV golfers.

John

 

[bulls9999]

If people really want to make things change, organize a boycott of the majors until a certain number, top 12, of LIV golfers are included in the field.

If nothing else it will be a metric on the extent of the support, or lack of support, for LIV golfers.

John

I think the only ones that may boycott are the LIV golfers, but most are already excluded from the majors. I doubt others (non-LIV golfers) who have a chance to play in the majors would feel that strongly that they would join a boycott. And 12 of 48, 25% of the 'captive field' of LIV golfers blanket allowed into the majors? What are you smoking? I would suggest maybe, just maybe top 12 get world ranking points, and not the full amount that winners and places of PGA tour events get (because of the 48-man field, 3 rounds, no cut, no change in field). So if they accumulate enough points to get into majors that way, then fine.

 

[jdlive]

The OWGR says LIV cannot be given points because it is a closed system and that some LIV players are playing next year have not been performing. Also, OWGR says that all the tours/tournaments they give points to is based on an open system that only allows the best players to play and be awarded OWGR points based on performance. But there are contractions of that. The Masters allows previous Masters winners to play that haven't had any performance based merit of late, and will award them OWGR points if they perform well in the Masters. Also, the PGA Invitational tournaments have players that haven't been the top performers invited and award them OWGR points.

If DataGolf, Sagarin or the new SI rankings are accurate and rank all the golfers in the world then the OWGR should seriously be looking into those ranking systems to be used. You really are asking why the rankings have to be independent? It is obviously the complete conflicts of interest. Lol.

You're confusing 2 different things here. The issue isn't having open qualifications for specific events, but access to the tours themselves as well.

And yes events like the Masters have other criteria besides OWGR rankings. But not really relevant to the topic here, at least those criteria are in fact based on performance.

As to the "conflict of interest", you'll need to explain that one to me. The tours and majors created the OWGR and they are the ones who use OWGR to determine who is eligible for their events. So where is this "conflict"?

The question for me, is if LIV get points, is it possible due to their closed shop and guaranteed points for everyone every LIV tournament that it could artificially inflate the rankings of their members? It will take a while but once they start elevating surely it just continues to climb regardless of quality as strength of field will just continue to rise? Then you get Piot and Uhlein top 50 when theyre nowhere near that quality

Quite possible. Though it's also probably the LIV events would not get significant points due to their format so it's hard to say how large these variances would really be.

 

[checkered]

I hate the politics of all this. I feel like if they should have figured a way to give them some points, just lesser due to their format/pool. Just seems trying to push them down vs truly being the official world golf rankings. It's crazy how all this is playing out and am curious what LIV does going foward with things after this decision.

 

[BigMac]

I hate the politics of all this. I feel like if they should have figured a way to give them some points, just lesser due to their format/pool. Just seems trying to push them down vs truly being the official world golf rankings. It's crazy how all this is playing out and am curious what LIV does going foward with things after this decision.

It'll be interesting to see how this all works out in the end now that Jay is in bed with the Saudis and MBS has some say in things.

 

[CrashTestDummy]

You're confusing 2 different things here. The issue isn't having open qualifications for specific events, but access to the tours themselves as well.

And yes events like the Masters have other criteria besides OWGR rankings. But not really relevant to the topic here, at least those criteria are in fact based on performance.

As to the "conflict of interest", you'll need to explain that one to me. The tours and majors created the OWGR and they are the ones who use OWGR to determine who is eligible for their events. So where is this "conflict"?


Quite possible. Though it's also probably the LIV events would not get significant points due to their format so it's hard to say how large these variances would really be.

It seems obvious the conflicts of interest. Monahan, Waters, and Pelley stepped down from the OWGR decisions of whether to allow LIV points or not because of conflicts of interest. But I doubt they really stayed out of the decisions behind closed doors.

Again, the OWGRs is supposed to rank all the golfers in the world not just some. Especially with the OWGR using strokes gained, they should be able to rank all players.

 

[JB]

As to the "conflict of interest", you'll need to explain that one to me. The tours and majors created the OWGR and they are the ones who use OWGR to determine who is eligible for their events. So where is this "conflict"?

This isn't accurate.
The concept came from Tony Greer and when it launched, only the R&A sanctioned it.

 

[Hacker67]

The timing of the OWGR decision is interesting seeing how now there are 24 spots open.

It was probably strategically timed to send a message to anyone on the PGAT who may be in talks or was planning on talks with LIV.

OWGR never would’ve waited until the post-LIV season when moves were being made to release the decision.

The timing of the decision is very suspicious but like Phil said this is going to be a long chess game.

I wonder when we get to checkmate?

 

[70sSanO]

The problem is LIV is not seizing a "potential" opportunity. If they want to upset the somewhat tenuous relationship between all the OWGR governing players, all they have to do is embrace the ball roll back. Puts a wedge between them.

R&A and USGA may see more value in supporting LIV especially with the PGAT rejecting it. It would lead to some strange bedfellows.

Of course, the reality is that nothing happens until the manufacturers actually produce a ball.

John

 

[MattyD-MPLS]

The problem is LIV is not seizing a "potential" opportunity. If they want to upset the somewhat tenuous relationship between all the OWGR governing players, all they have to do is embrace the ball roll back. Puts a wedge between them.

R&A and USGA may see more value in supporting LIV especially with the PGAT rejecting it. It would lead to some strange bedfellows.

Of course, the reality is that nothing happens until the manufacturers actually produce a ball.

John

They seem as anti-establishment as you can get and don't see them doing something like that.

 

[70sSanO]

They seem as anti-establishment as you can get and don't see them doing something like that.

They need to understand basic negotiation as a means to an end.

No one gets everything they want without giving something. The key is to give as little as possible to get as much as possible.

John

 

[jdlive]

It seems obvious the conflicts of interest. Monahan, Waters, and Pelley stepped down from the OWGR decisions of whether to allow LIV points or not because of conflicts of interest. But I doubt they really stayed out of the decisions behind closed doors.

Again, the OWGRs is supposed to rank all the golfers in the world not just some. Especially with the OWGR using strokes gained, they should be able to rank all players.

They recused themselves mainly due to the lawsuits in process as much as anything. But the end users of OWGR are the same people who run it, so still not seeing the conflicts of the actual decision.

This isn't accurate.
The concept came from Tony Greer and when it launched, only the R&A sanctioned it.

Noted.

 

[henchman24]

Late to the party... it seems to me the OWGR basically said here are the things that LIV is missing, and LIV simply refuses to abide. If LIV wants points, they'll have to make changes. LIV doesn't want to makes changes and would rather scream and play the PR game. I certainly feel there are golfers on LIV who are some of the best in the world... but the tour format just doesn't align. Which is perfectly fine and their decision to make... but OWGR shouldn't be expected to change their criteria to accommodate the LIV. They all know the rules and criteria.

 

[Templet0n]

Late to the party... it seems to me the OWGR basically said here are the things that LIV is missing, and LIV simply refuses to abide. If LIV wants points, they'll have to make changes. LIV doesn't want to makes changes and would rather scream and play the PR game. I certainly feel there are golfers on LIV who are some of the best in the world... but the tour format just doesn't align. Which is perfectly fine and their decision to make... but OWGR shouldn't be expected to change their criteria to accommodate the LIV. They all know the rules and criteria.

After reading through all this some points I found interesting..

The decision really came down to the governing bodies of the majors. So, blame the green coats. Because two of the majors are opens and if they wanted anyone on LIV could play their way in to the US and British (yes I said it) Open. These players are just too proud to do such a thing.. It is beneath them.

The PGA Championship actually does not have an OWGR points criteria so, they could if they wanted let LIV players in if they so decided. But they have not, so that tells you something about the PGA Championship.. So really The Masters and Augusta are the group that said "no points for you".. And it actually came down to LIV being a closed tour and there not being a way to play on.

So rather than kick and scream about how unfair it is.. Make the appropriate changes to your tour and get points..

 

[JB]

After reading through all this some points I found interesting..

The decision really came down to the governing bodies of the majors. So, blame the green coats. Because two of the majors are opens and if they wanted anyone on LIV could play their way in to the US and British (yes I said it) Open. These players are just too proud to do such a thing.. It is beneath them.

The PGA Championship actually does not have an OWGR points criteria so, they could if they wanted let LIV players in if they so decided. But they have not, so that tells you something about the PGA Championship.. So really The Masters and Augusta are the group that said "no points for you".. And it actually came down to LIV being a closed tour and there not being a way to play on.

So rather than kick and scream about how unfair it is.. Make the appropriate changes to your tour and get points..

This is all true except one omission. Who designed the program and how it all ties into the PGA Tour and its partners.

there is so much misinformation out there about the ranking system Wyatt started, and where it’s gone. I mean, we saw it in this thread recently, where it was, said, that the tours started the system, which isn’t the case at all. They balked at it at first. and only until the changes could be made, and tweaked did they take it over so to speak

 

[Daluteh]

After reading through all this some points I found interesting..

The decision really came down to the governing bodies of the majors. So, blame the green coats. Because two of the majors are opens and if they wanted anyone on LIV could play their way in to the US and British (yes I said it) Open. These players are just too proud to do such a thing.. It is beneath them.

The PGA Championship actually does not have an OWGR points criteria so, they could if they wanted let LIV players in if they so decided. But they have not, so that tells you something about the PGA Championship.. So really The Masters and Augusta are the group that said "no points for you".. And it actually came down to LIV being a closed tour and there not being a way to play on.

So rather than kick and scream about how unfair it is.. Make the appropriate changes to your tour and get points..

Do you think opening up LIV is the fastest road to a resolution?

I've read this thread on and off since its inception and I see all of the sides to it - I think there are a lot of good potential solutions, but they always come down to how many concessions are they willing to make to be part of the system.

 

[JB]

Do you think opening up LIV is the fastest road to a resolution?

I've read this thread on and off since its inception and I see all of the sides to it - I think there are a lot of good potential solutions, but they always come down to how many concessions are they willing to make to be part of the system.

The issue is a pretty easy one. To understand anyway. If they open up ranking points to tours that are not done the same way, i.e. with unlimited funds, the tour cease to exist. Because everybody would take the money.

 

[henchman24]

So rather than kick and scream about how unfair it is.. Make the appropriate changes to your tour and get points..

This is my whole thing. OWGR didn't say they could never have points, just that they can't have point with how it is structured. Change the structure and you get points! It is a pretty simple thing. The issue is that LIV is invested in their idea of what golf should be and won't make the changes out of their own arrogance.

Have Monday qualifying, implement a cut, and have a legitimate way for players to earn their way on tour and suddenly LIV gets points. The whole basic idea of all the other tours is if you are good enough, you can play your way onto the tour. LIV is a a closed shop and against that whole principal. You could probably argue for some legitimate reasons to have a closed shop (most of them money related), but it just goes against the fabric of the game. Until that changes, they won't get points.