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Play it where it lies? Or OK to move to a preferred lie in the fairway?

Every league I've played in has used "Winter Rules." That always meant rolling the ball when in the fairway. All the groups and individuals I've played with also use "Winter Rules." I've always played the ball down when playing by myself because I want the mental advantage of playing from tougher lies and then rolling the ball when playing in league or with friends.

With the new handicap rules, I won't have many, if any scores to turn in. League play and with friends won't count because of "Winter Rules" and scores played alone won't count either. So, I'll have a Golf Digest handicap and a league handicap, but won't be able to establish an official handicap.

A little story about "local rules." I was a 1st year member one year and made it to the quarter finals of the club championship. On the first hole my drive ended up right against and behind a tree. I had no option but to hit sideways and a bit back towards the tee. Ended up with a double bogey and lost the hole. Later in the round, my opponent found himself in the same position. He kicked the ball from behind the tree. I really couldn't believe he did it. When I called him on it, he said that's the way they played at that course. If I recall, I lost 3 and 2. After the round, I went to the pro and complained and he informed me my opponent was a long time member and he was correct, that's how the members played. He said I should have asked before the round. I never thought I needed to ask that one. I protested, lost, and found a different place to play golf the next year. Oh ya, everyone rolled the ball all over the course.

Later,

John
 
ntanygd760 said:
If you play a hole not by the rules all you need to do is giver yourself the expected score for your handicap and the hole rating, put an x by it and turn it in with the other 17 holes played by the rules.
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Interesting, and after looking up the (handicap) rules it leaves some question.
Firstly in any stroke play comp we need to hole out and do it by the rules and that's all there is too that. But for simply posting rounds towards a HC it does speak of what you mention. But not quite certain if your completely correct or just perhaps Im not picking up what you wrote correctly..lol.

Any hole not played Under the rules, the player (for handicap posting purposes) would have to write down par + handicap stroke/s if any on that hole. This is not the most likely score for an unfinished or conceded hole which apparently is different. This is a hole not played under the rules in a casual but posted round. If one is a 10 cap and playing the 6th handicapped hole and does not play under the rules, he would then score a 4 (if its a par4) plus 1 and put an x-5 on the card. This is not the same as one (who can for discussion sake) only record a 7 due to esc. A player may be on his 8th stroke and still not holed out yet and perhaps pick up for sake of pace (and peace lol) or whatever and all he can score is a 7 anyway so no harm done. Not playing by the rules is different so it doesn't allow you to score that 7 and inflate the handicap and so its a par plus a stroke if any.

But then there is the whole preferred lies (or winter rules) thing where a course can change rules on its own. However its only when a condition is wide spread and anything otherwise wouldnt promotes fair play and also when/if its deemed necessary to protect the golf course itself.

But the whole idea of allowing this is actually OK because in the end it actually lowers ones score and therefore his cap and so it does not work towards sandbagging (that is paraphrasing from the usga the way I interpreted it). But its also why one cannot just take an esc score (of lets say 7 max) when not playing a hole by the rules. Instead he must take par plus any handicap stroke if any on that hole. This way his cap doesn't inflate. They would rather you have a tad of a vanity cap vs an inflated one.
 
I sometimes "fluff' the ball, if it's in a real heinous lie. My cheating verminous friends, though, will roll a ball in the middle of a fairway, on a perfect lie, in the middle of summer, and claim "winter rules". Drives me bonkers.
 
I like to play it where it lies, even in "winter" conditions. To me, that's a core part of golf. I often talk to my ball: "really, you had to go there, right effing there? Did you not see the wonderful grass 2 inches left?" It's not luck, just part of the game, a challenge I appreciate. But I also support people doing whatever they need to do to make golf fun. It's a hard game.
 
If I'm by myself or playing with a buddy just to have fun, I could care less if we improve the lies. We're just out for fun. Now if you're playing with official rules, don't, but if it's just you or some buddies out to enjoy a game with no competition involved, do whatever the hell you want to enjoy it the most. It's all about having fun

This is my custom signature
 
For me personally, I prefer to play it down and putt it out. The group that I play with seems to always come up with some reason to play modified golf or some form of winter rules. Now that summer is here I look forward to GOLF.
 
I'll play it as it lies unless it's in a lie that could cause me injury. Also, if the ball lands in a divot, I will usually move it. Both these scenarios are obviously not applicable to tournament play.
 
In a stipulated round, play it where it lies or take the unplayable. No freebies.

In a casual round. Throw it up the fairway, I don't care.

If we're playing for money, we will be playing by the same rules.
 
2 situations where I will roll the ball. If it lands in a divot in the middle of the fairway. I deam it unjust to be penalized by striping it down the middle. Or if it would cause injury against a root or rock. All others, play it down.
 
I pay to play, not get paid to play.
If the ball is in a horrible lie I yell to the guys I'm playing with that I'm rolling it. We all do it. Most of the time we play it as it lies just to see if we can make the shot but on the "WTF???" lies you just gotta do what you gotta do.
 
rollin said:
Interesting, and after looking up the (handicap) rules it leaves some question.
Firstly in any stroke play comp we need to hole out and do it by the rules and that's all there is too that. But for simply posting rounds towards a HC it does speak of what you mention. But not quite certain if your completely correct or just perhaps Im not picking up what you wrote correctly..lol.

Any hole not played Under the rules, the player (for handicap posting purposes) would have to write down par + handicap stroke/s if any on that hole. This is not the most likely score for an unfinished or conceded hole which apparently is different. This is a hole not played under the rules in a casual but posted round. If one is a 10 cap and playing the 6th handicapped hole and does not play under the rules, he would then score a 4 (if its a par4) plus 1 and put an x-5 on the card. This is not the same as one (who can for discussion sake) only record a 7 due to esc. A player may be on his 8th stroke and still not holed out yet and perhaps pick up for sake of pace (and peace lol) or whatever and all he can score is a 7 anyway so no harm done. Not playing by the rules is different so it doesn't allow you to score that 7 and inflate the handicap and so its a par plus a stroke if any.

But then there is the whole preferred lies (or winter rules) thing where a course can change rules on its own. However its only when a condition is wide spread and anything otherwise wouldnt promotes fair play and also when/if its deemed necessary to protect the golf course itself.

But the whole idea of allowing this is actually OK because in the end it actually lowers ones score and therefore his cap and so it does not work towards sandbagging (that is paraphrasing from the usga the way I interpreted it). But its also why one cannot just take an esc score (of lets say 7 max) when not playing a hole by the rules. Instead he must take par plus any handicap stroke if any on that hole. This way his cap doesn't inflate. They would rather you have a tad of a vanity cap vs an inflated one.
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You are correct I used most likely score in the wrong context, especially considering most likely score is used in a different way for your score when the hole is conceded.
I used most likely when I meant to say par + handicap strokes for the hole. That was also assuming you aren't in a stroke play event where obv not finishing would be a DQ.

As far as winter rules and such we use that here in Ohio often because it really is the only way to get through a round on the wet mud course I find during winter. It should also be added that where I live November 1st- April 1st or April 15th is considered off season and scores recorded are not eligible to be turned in for your handicap so winter rules or any other things like that don't matter at all since the round won't count.

Personally I have no problem with playing preferred lies when it is really wet or even on some courses that are so awful half the fairway is dirt. I don't believe you are hurting anyone by doing so unless of course it is in some sort of sanctioned competition.
 
I play as it lies whenever possible. I only allow myself a clubs length of relief when its lie is truly unrealistic (i.e. Resting behind or in front of a root/tree that truly makes for an impossible shot) and even then the relief I allow myself generally doesn't result in a better, easier lie to play.

I also play a strict stroke count, even if those I play with do not. OB is drop and a stroke. Lost ball without a provisional is a drop closest to where it was spotted landing + stroke. If I need to increase pace so as to not slow play, then it's a drop near the next closest player minus reasonable yardage to account for my decreased distance and it's plus the number of strokes I know it would've taken to get from the place I last shot to and where I've just dropped.

I also don't apply a handicap. My handicap is that I shoot in the 90s, if I want to play better, then I should practice more...not pretend like I shot close to par after giving myself strokes. If I'm playing in the high 90s low 100s and I won't to be competitive against my low 90 high 80s playing partner...well then I better try harder. I don't want a win via the, "Well I get 10 strokes" method.
 
Jim Bloodworth said:
I grew up playing on courses without much grass. We had a rule that it was OK to move the ball to a better spot for a preferred lie if you are in the fairway. Sort of like Winter rules.

Now I live in a area where the courses are in good shape with good grass. But I still have the urge to move the ball to a preferred lie in the fairway.

Is that OK, or is only Play it where it lies?
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I think it depends on your definition of "ok" here. Some play golf to follow the rules 100% across the board. Some don't genuinely care what the rules are.

The way I see it, you're the one defining what makes sense for how you want to enjoy the game. As long as you're not bending the rules in tournaments on in competitive matches where said rule was not pre-determined, I say do whatever makes you love the game the most!
 
PutterWorksLtd said:
I play as it lies whenever possible. I only allow myself a clubs length of relief when its lie is truly unrealistic (i.e. Resting behind or in front of a root/tree that truly makes for an impossible shot) and even then the relief I allow myself generally doesn't result in a better, easier lie to play.

I also play a strict stroke count, even if those I play with do not. OB is drop and a stroke. Lost ball without a provisional is a drop closest to where it was spotted landing + stroke. If I need to increase pace so as to not slow play, then it's a drop near the next closest player minus reasonable yardage to account for my decreased distance and it's plus the number of strokes I know it would've taken to get from the place I last shot to and where I've just dropped.

I also don't apply a handicap. My handicap is that I shoot in the 90s, if I want to play better, then I should practice more...not pretend like I shot close to par after giving myself strokes. If I'm playing in the high 90s low 100s and I won't to be competitive against my low 90 high 80s playing partner...well then I better try harder. I don't want a win via the, "Well I get 10 strokes" method.
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Sounds like you have a good sense of trying to be honest as possible with yourself and is what I try to do as well with myself. But to that note and fwiw to you....the lost ball and/or OOB would both be stroke and distance as well. So when a provisional was not hit because we just didn't think the first ball was going to be lost or OOB (which does happen to us) what some people do when dropping is then count 2 strokes (now hitting 4) which helps work to make up for the distance part of the penalty. Its still not correct but at least it more honestly works towards the double penalty of stroke-and-distance. That's what I do to myself when I didn't hit a provisional because I was fairly confident the ball was not lost or oob. The only time I take drop-n-1 stroke is when I and my group all feel the ball shouldn't be lost and/or is in an open area like the rough or even if under a cleared out and very open tree canopy. And the reason I don't double penalize myself there is because I don't feel its fair that we don't have hundreds of eyes watching our ball. Of course if I hit an errant shot into or even borderline to a heavily thick weeded/wooded area or know for certain it went far into it, then I hit a provisional.

But a ball in a very open area, or hidden in the rough, etc? and all figure its a very findable ball, we just don't have the same great advantage the pros do. Their ball is basically found for them almost immediately and even when hit further into heavily weeded/wooded areas that are not open at all and in fact cluttered, still most regularly their ball is found for them before they even get there. We just don't have that great luxury for an advantage. So when the suspected landing area we hit towards leaves us
feeling our ball is safe and very findable and thus gives no reason to hit a provisional, its just not fair that we dont have others watching exactly where it is. Not fair that one leaf, or clump of grass clippings just off the faiurway, or thick rough, or a twig, or whatever conceals our ball from our view will cost us stroke and also distance where as they don't suffer niether. And they even benefit when their ball is actually in much deeper troubles that those mentioned. Not only doesn't it cost them a stroke but also doesn't cost them distance. So in those circumstances where its open enough and safe enough? I feel one stroke without also distance is already penalty enough and more than they receive. But again, not when I would be deeper in or its a very cluttered area. Then I would give myself the double penalty or would have hit a provisional.
 
I think that the drop plus two, in lieu of stroke and distance is reasonable. The only reason I don't play stroke n distance is because I have a terribly impatient playing partner. He's the type that will hit 3 provisionals a hole, not because he needs them, but because he didn't like the way the first felt and the second looked. He's also the type that likes to play ahead. The last time I took 2 minutes to look for a ball, mind you the fairway on approach to the green is over a hill and it's a blind green, he played ahead of me. By the time I got to the green, he had finished out the hole, and then started b*tching about how he had to play it out with his Fwy, because I had the cart.

I know that if I was more realistic about some of my drops and how the rules applied, I'd probably need to take extra strokes, but considering most the time the drop is caused by a impatient person, I try to be a little fair with myself.
 
PutterWorksLtd said:
I think that the drop plus two, in lieu of stroke and distance is reasonable. The only reason I don't play stroke n distance is because I have a terribly impatient playing partner. He's the type that will hit 3 provisionals a hole, not because he needs them, but because he didn't like the way the first felt and the second looked. He's also the type that likes to play ahead. The last time I took 2 minutes to look for a ball, mind you the fairway on approach to the green is over a hill and it's a blind green, he played ahead of me. By the time I got to the green, he had finished out the hole, and then started b*tching about how he had to play it out with his Fwy, because I had the cart.

I know that if I was more realistic about some of my drops and how the rules applied, I'd probably need to take extra strokes, but considering most the time the drop is caused by a impatient person, I try to be a little fair with myself.
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That's the worst. How often you do you play with him? I get impatient when people start telling stories on the tee box or when they are about to hit cause they back off and go through their pre swings over and over.
 
PutterWorksLtd said:
I think that the drop plus two, in lieu of stroke and distance is reasonable. The only reason I don't play stroke n distance is because I have a terribly impatient playing partner. He's the type that will hit 3 provisionals a hole, not because he needs them, but because he didn't like the way the first felt and the second looked. He's also the type that likes to play ahead. The last time I took 2 minutes to look for a ball, mind you the fairway on approach to the green is over a hill and it's a blind green, he played ahead of me. By the time I got to the green, he had finished out the hole, and then started b*tching about how he had to play it out with his Fwy, because I had the cart.

I know that if I was more realistic about some of my drops and how the rules applied, I'd probably need to take extra strokes, but considering most the time the drop is caused by a impatient person, I try to be a little fair with myself.
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bc10966 said:
That's the worst. How often you do you play with him? I get impatient when people start telling stories on the tee box or when they are about to hit cause they back off and go through their pre swings over and over.
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Yea I agree, who needs a partner/friend like that? Sounds like he has no respect or courtesy for anyone but himself. And yes "966" I hate the one who talks a lot but cant then play at the same time. I don't mind the talking itself but if your gonna stop your own playing progress to do it then either learn how to talk and play at the same time or learn how to pause your conversation while you take care of business first.
 
rollin said:
Yea I agree, who needs a partner/friend like that? Sounds like he has no respect or courtesy for anyone but himself. And yes "966" I hate the one who talks a lot but cant then play at the same time. I don't mind the talking itself but if your gonna stop your own playing progress to do it then either learn how to talk and play at the same time or learn how to pause your conversation while you take care of business first.
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It's brutal.
 
We were playing 9 hole rounds about 3-4 times a week during the fall, but since then he has taken a job in West Texas and is gonna a month and home 2 weeks. So we may play twice when he is in. I primarily choose to play with him, because when I first started 10 months ago, I needed someone who understood I played at about a 120 while I was learning. Plus he's family, and it's about the only way we get to catch up.

Im working on finding playing partners, but it seems most the people I come across on the courses are already in foursomes that they play with all the time.
 
This thread veered off topic a bit. So I'll address the preferred lies bit first then make a comment.

* Preferred lies. If you're playing a casual round, practice round, or not keeping a handicap, do what you want. No one cares. If you're playing in a league, play by the league rules. If you're keeping a handicap, you need to play by whatever the rules are on the course - if the "lift and clean" rule isn't in place, you're to play the ball down. If preferred lies are in effect find out what extent they are on the course - some courses use 6" from ball position, some courses use up to one club length.

* I play for fun. I don't keep an official handicap anymore. I don't compete in a league. I play sort of by the rules, but if my ball is in a location where I could injure myself I'll move it.

* Lost balls: to save time, hit a provisional. If it's in a spot where you can find it but can't, then if you're keeping an official HC and you can't return to the original spot because of pace of play score the hole X(par + HC); if you're not keeping an official handicap, drop a ball in a playable spot and take a 2 stroke penalty - you might as well drop it on the short grass since technically you're cheating anyway.
 
InTheRough said:
This thread veered off topic a bit. So I'll address the preferred lies bit first then make a comment.

* Preferred lies. If you're playing a casual round, practice round, or not keeping a handicap, do what you want. No one cares. If you're playing in a league, play by the league rules. If you're keeping a handicap, you need to play by whatever the rules are on the course - if the "lift and clean" rule isn't in place, you're to play the ball down. If preferred lies are in effect find out what extent they are on the course - some courses use 6" from ball position, some courses use up to one club length.

* I play for fun. I don't keep an official handicap anymore. I don't compete in a league. I play sort of by the rules, but if my ball is in a location where I could injure myself I'll move it.

* Lost balls: to save time, hit a provisional. If it's in a spot where you can find it but can't, then if you're keeping an official HC and you can't return to the original spot because of pace of play score the hole X(par + HC); if you're not keeping an official handicap, drop a ball in a playable spot and take a 2 stroke penalty - you might as well drop it on the short grass since technically you're cheating anyway.
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well, perhaps just me but a drop and 2 stroke imo is fair when in a place you felt a provisional wasn't necessary. And in a rare scenario where all are aware the ball should fairly easily be found but isn't........then the one stroke seems fair imo. As mentioned, we don't have the great advantage and fortunate reward of having many sets of eyes finding our ball long before we even get to the landing area. Its such a unfair advantage that we don't have so Im not going to feel guilty in some certain circumstances as mentioned earlier. And this is coming from one (me) who doesn't like to fudge things in my favor at all because doing that doesn't sit well with me. But I also feel we are at such a disadvantage vs the pros as for watchful eyes that it (in a way) justifies these things some times. But again its only in certain given circumstances that I do this and is only when I feel its truly fair to do. Other than those certain given circumstances I will suffer the penalties because I deserve (most times) what I put myself into.
 
We play on a course that the conditions make it play like the US Open at times seems like fairways get cut once a week and rough every 2 weeks brutal at times. I will try and not move the ball but sometimes you just have to in the fairway. I try to leave it alone if I miss the fairway but sometimes those areas should just be flagged as ground under repair. That being said I play the game to relax and be with my sons and buddies I don't have a competitive bone in my body so it really not a big deal for me
 
rollin said:
Not exactly sure what your saying. If your playing a round you plan on posting and you get into a situation such as this, you will move the ball and simply decide not to post the round? If that's what you mean, then your not really being honest with your cap. I understand the situation seems unfair and one doesn't want to risk injury or the cost of a club. I am with you on that. But still we did hit the ball there and is what it is. Why not just take the penalty for the are times this happens? After all its our own fault for hitting the ball under trees or whatever we did. Just my feeling on it. But to be honest its only a rare occasion anyway so a stroke once in a while not counted due to this situation is not really affecting our caps much at all and even if it does its only working towards lowering it a fraction and that isn't going to ever hurt anyone except that person. It would be different if it raised your cap because then it would be like sandbagging. But this sort of works the opposite way. If it happened often enough than it would create a tiny bit of a vanity cap but again that hurts no one else.
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I mean I would take the penalty to drop as described in the previous post. I wouldn't move just to move or not post the round to avoid the penalty.

I was just saying there isn't much worth breaking my club if I'm not playing in a tournament or something like that.

I agree if I hit it there, take my lumps and pay the penalty. I'm only considering a move if that is the only option. If I can punch out sideways I'll do that, make sense?
 
Fourputt said:
I will first try to find a way to play the ball as it lies... always. I've played from a lot of dicey lies without hurting myself or my clubs - in 40 years I've never broken a club making a swing.

I've played from roots and rocks and gravel, often just a pitch or punch out, but which still resulted in a better situation than taking the penalty (no law says you have to take a full swing and risk injury). I've played from concrete and asphalt cart paths when the free drop was in a location where the lie would be difficult or unplayable, maybe in deep rough or bushes (correctly dropping from an obstruction does not guarantee you a good lie).
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I'm with you here, unfortunately I've been on the wrong side of this equation a couple times with injury and one broken club. I nicked up a brand new wedge on rocks... I know it ended up being solid character for the club... But since I hurt my wrist pretty good hitting a root that I swore I couldn't hit... I will always heir on caution.

My broken club was just not being able to stop my follow through. Ultimately it was a $40 dollar fix and I learned a solid lesson. (I have really bad luck sometimes)

Long story short, I'll play it out if that's an option if not I'll take the penalty and give myself room.
 
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