Play the ball down or fluff your lie? Or a little bit of both?

[tahoebum]

I understand that, but the logic I'm referring to is simply if you consider a divot to be part of the game, then all course conditions should be considered the same, unless a temporary local rule is in place during the period of aeration. No?

A temporary local rule is in play for lift, clean, and place the week after aeration. It only comes into play for me about one round per year because I generally don’t play that week after aeration. I played once last weeke a couple days after aeration and rolled it or did the lift clean and place about 7-8 times. The aeration holes were not a real problem but the 7 inches of rain we’ve had(6th wettest September on record so far) made for a few partially imbedded tee shots and mud on the ball on 75% of the shots not landing on the green. I think I had 4 tee shots stick in their own pitch mark and one was barely visible.

 

[WMac19]

I understand that, but the logic I'm referring to is simply if you consider a divot to be part of the game, then all course conditions should be considered the same, unless a temporary local rule is in place during the period of aeration. No?

Many courses institute a local rule permitting the nearest point of relief no closer to the hole or even LCP.

But there is also the situation where if not posted, then the competition committee can decide. In the event of altered course conditions and no available competition committee, it's my understanding that a group can act as a competition committee and agree upon invoking a local rule for relief of plugs.

Just my understanding and perhaps misguided belief. I've only ever removed the plugs as loose impediments and played the ball down but my buddies have always rolled it.

For money rounds, we just never bothered with the match on aerated courses due to the possible random result.

 

[rajohnson]

The only time I move it is if the fairways have some bare spots, I will move it to grass.

I agree also with the tree roots, I won’t hit from them, I broke my 4 iron like that years ago and hurt my wrist, never again.


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[Golf Ghost]

Will roll it over in the early spring, late fall, or if it's really wet.

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[Smiter]

Cheating is cheating.

Congrats on playing courses where you don't have to ever move the ball. I wish I could but in order to play with the kids several times a week, we play a lot of goat ranches.

 

[DG_1234]

Congrats on playing courses where you don't have to ever move the ball. I wish I could but in order to play with the kids several times a week, we play a lot of goat ranches.

Where did I write that the courses I play are lush, well maintained, offer consistently good lies etc... ?
My perspective is that the Rules of Golf allow for relief without penalty from "unplayable lies" such as embedded balls , tire tracks, casual water, burrowing animal etc... So, I think improving one's lie (other than what is allowed by the Rules) is cheating.

 

[Canadan]

I rolled my ball out of some diseased grass (burnt, brown, bad) in the fairway today. I think I did it once.

Don't even kind of feel bad about it. Changes nothing about my potential skill as a golfer.

 

[Paladin]

In Arizona I would move the ball to get out of hardpan areas, because the alternative was almost certainly club damage. Having a home course built into the side of a mountain tends to do that.

Here in GA, I'll roll a bit to get away from a tree root. Not about to damage a club or break my wrists for golf.

I'll fluff the crap outta lies for a charity scramble, tho.

 

[Smiter]

I rolled my ball out of some diseased grass (burnt, brown, bad) in the fairway today. I think I did it once.

Don't even kind of feel bad about it. Changes nothing about my potential skill as a golfer.

Concur. If anything it's only hurting you by having a lower HC and certainly isn't to a level that is considered cheating.

 

[~QQ~]

Meh, I follow the course rules. If I'm in a bad spot because of the lie, I'll take a soft 7 iron to it so I don't damage "anything" just to get it out. I don't want to start gaining any advantages to help my score. Otherwise, how will I know if I'm really getting any better? I don't really care that much about the stroke over the rules.

So question, since I haven't been around golf for a while, if you're playing in a tournament are guys rolling, improving, or doing whatever to their ball? I don't believe you're allowed unless it's been ok'd by the course?? Not sure. I only ask because I've seen it happen before and was confused.

 

[Canadan]

So question, since I haven't been around golf for a while, if you're playing in a tournament are guys rolling, improving, or doing whatever to their ball? I don't believe you're allowed unless it's been ok'd by the course?? Not sure. I only ask because I've seen it happen before and was confused.

nah, that's not happening. These questions are almost always reflective of casual rounds of golf.

 

[wadesworld]

I play it down unless it's super wet where a tournament would be playing lift clean and place. If so, I allow myself the same benefit.

However, I encourage anyone who is struggling, whether a beginner or just having a bad day to roll it or just move it into a better lie. When golf is being particularly hard, do whatever it takes to have fun, there will be more rounds so no reason to make the current one more miserable.

 

[widespot]

I play it down unless it's a tournament that is lift and place, like today. It just hurts me to be used to rolling it when I can't. Made a big difference today lots of lies were improved.

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[Smiter]

Where did I write that the courses I play are lush, well maintained, offer consistently good lies etc... ?
My perspective is that the Rules of Golf allow for relief without penalty from "unplayable lies" such as embedded balls , tire tracks, casual water, burrowing animal etc... So, I think improving one's lie (other than what is allowed by the Rules) is cheating.

First hole today, I hit one pretty high but dead center. I get up to my ball and it's an inch from where it embedded but popped out and not only is it sitting on bare mud but it's twice the size because of all the mud stuck on it. My kid even asked if my ball had grown a James Harden beard. The pro shop had not invoked a LCP rule (trust me I checked). So I cleaned it and found a small patch of semi usable grass 6" or so behind it. I did this 3 other times throughout the round as well as taking legitimate relief from a mud tire track. Is that cheating? Should I add 4 strokes for taking an unplayable lie? I don't even know if you're allowed to clean your ball when taking an unplayable, if so should I add more strokes for that? You tell me what I should post. Is it 4 strokes more than what I wrote down or should I add more?

I doubt the staff at the majority of courses I play even know that they should post for LCP when the conditions warrant it. I've never, not even one time, seen it posted at the courses I most frequent. Sure they'll close the range or make it CPO, but LCP isn't something I've ever seen.

I'd be very cautious about calling someone a cheater. I'm calm as can be and not even upset by it, because when I lay my head down tonight I know I did the right thing. There's a lot of people that I respect on here that have offered similar views. Is it my fault if the golf course is staffed by non-golfers only that wouldn't know when/how to invoke LCP? Is it my fault if there's a patch of alleged FW that for 20x20' doesn't have a single blade of grass due to crap conditions?

So I'm good if you want to hit the bearded ball from a bare patch of mud. I'm not a huge fan of you saying that it's "cheating" to inact LCP on our own when the conditions clearly call for it. I've hit from a bunch of crap lies when it's been dry on that course. Bare mud with a muddy ball is not my idea of being rewarded for hitting the FW. Obviously our mileage varies. You do you and I'll do me.

 

[Hamfist]

Well, I mostly don’t cheat, but then, sometimes I do.

 

[DG_1234]

First hole today, I hit one pretty high but dead center. I get up to my ball and it's an inch from where it embedded but popped out and not only is it sitting on bare mud but it's twice the size because of all the mud stuck on it. My kid even asked if my ball had grown a James Harden beard. The pro shop had not invoked a LCP rule (trust me I checked). So I cleaned it and found a small patch of semi usable grass 6" or so behind it. I did this 3 other times throughout the round as well as taking legitimate relief from a mud tire track. Is that cheating? Should I add 4 strokes for taking an unplayable lie? I don't even know if you're allowed to clean your ball when taking an unplayable, if so should I add more strokes for that? You tell me what I should post. Is it 4 strokes more than what I wrote down or should I add more?

I doubt the staff at the majority of courses I play even know that they should post for LCP when the conditions warrant it. I've never, not even one time, seen it posted at the courses I most frequent. Sure they'll close the range or make it CPO, but LCP isn't something I've ever seen.

I'd be very cautious about calling someone a cheater. I'm calm as can be and not even upset by it, because when I lay my head down tonight I know I did the right thing. There's a lot of people that I respect on here that have offered similar views. Is it my fault if the golf course is staffed by non-golfers only that wouldn't know when/how to invoke LCP? Is it my fault if there's a patch of alleged FW that for 20x20' doesn't have a single blade of grass due to crap conditions?

So I'm good if you want to hit the bearded ball from a bare patch of mud. I'm not a huge fan of you saying that it's "cheating" to inact LCP on our own when the conditions clearly call for it. I've hit from a bunch of crap lies when it's been dry on that course. Bare mud with a muddy ball is not my idea of being rewarded for hitting the FW. Obviously our mileage varies. You do you and I'll do me.

Yes, your cleaning mud off the ball as well as moving your ball to patches of grass were breaches of the Rules.
Yes, when taking relief for an unplayable lie, including the 1 shot penalty, the player is permitted to clean his ball and, or, replace that ball with another ball.
As for who is cheating and who is not....the Rules of Golf are available for any player to read and learn.
Few actually do honor the Rules of Golf. For example , with just a slight bit of rain, for their events the PGA Tour usually allows lift-clean-place. PGA Tour players often take liberties with point of entry drops.
Last year the LPGA's Lexi Thompson clearly gave herself a preferred lie (when marking/replacing her ball on the green), yet instead of being disqualified she was given a pass. About 15 years ago Stewart Cink improved his lie in a waste bunker at Harbour Town, clearly cheating, and the PGA Tour covered up because their on course official (Slugger White) neglected to accompany Cink to the waste bunker.
Cheating is wide spread at all levels of golf, from the amateurs at local municipals to the PGA Tour and its players.
If a person wants to cheat that's his business, not mine. But, the Rules of Golf are clear regarding what constitutes a breach/violation (cheating).

 

[Smiter]

Play the course I did today (Ashland Ohio Brookside) and call what I did cheating.

When dry the course is almost unplayable in spots. It's FW's are baked this year. I don't care then, it is what it is. Sopping wet it is unplayable and it's not my fault if the shop isn't smart enough to enact LCP. It is unplayable when it rained Sunday-Thursday morning.

That's not cheating. That's making a crap situation a tiny bit more bearable. I haven't posted my round yet. You tell me what to post and I'll do it. You want me to add 4 to my score I'll do it. I certainly don't want to be called (in error) a cheater by random internet guy.

Awesome that you think the PGA is a bunch of cheaters too because they have the intelligence to call it as LCP when the conditions call for it. DJ-cheater. Tiger-cheater. Commisioner-cheater. Nice.

 

[Mr Moke]

However, I encourage anyone who is struggling, whether a beginner or just having a bad day to roll it or just move it into a better lie. When golf is being particularly hard, do whatever it takes to have fun, there will be more rounds so no reason to make the current one more miserable.

As one who finds golf particularly hard, I agree.

 

[Art M]

If the ball sits on a way that makes a poor lie because of something unusual ie divot, hole, dirt, rock, branch, too wet and plugged...i will move it every time

 

[OGputtnfool]

What's the reasoning?

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I'd guess it's an extension of the "everybody gets a trophy mindset". I mean, we don't wanna give the kids nowadays the impression that life presents difficulties.

 

[OGputtnfool]

Yes, I do. Pace of play is the reason, and I don't disagree with it. We also play in the Spring when conditions here are not all that great, lots of still yellowed out and hardpan courses.

I disagree with this. Pace of play would seem to be slower if you're adding a step for every shot between the tee and green, I'd think.

In practice, my boys and girls have to play it down. But, in qualifying rounds they play by the grip length rule, and when they don't use it in the tournaments I get pretty upset, its there so not taking advantage of it while others do is just silly.

I can agree with this. As long as the rule is even across the board, take advantage of it to the fullest.

 

[wadesworld]

About 15 years ago Stewart Cink improved his lie in a waste bunker at Harbour Town, clearly cheating, and the PGA Tour covered up because their on course official (Slugger White) neglected to accompany Cink to the waste bunker.

Not familiar with this incident, but am curious at to what you think required Slugger White to accompany Cink to the waste bunker?

 

[DG_1234]

Play the course I did today (Ashland Ohio Brookside) and call what I did cheating.

When dry the course is almost unplayable in spots. It's FW's are baked this year. I don't care then, it is what it is. Sopping wet it is unplayable and it's not my fault if the shop isn't smart enough to enact LCP. It is unplayable when it rained Sunday-Thursday morning.

That's not cheating. That's making a crap situation a tiny bit more bearable. I haven't posted my round yet. You tell me what to post and I'll do it. You want me to add 4 to my score I'll do it. I certainly don't want to be called (in error) a cheater by random internet guy.

Awesome that you think the PGA is a bunch of cheaters too because they have the intelligence to call it as LCP when the conditions call for it. DJ-cheater. Tiger-cheater. Commisioner-cheater. Nice.

For what it's worth, I can you that the USGA does not endorse the PGA Tour's policy routinely enacting lift-clean-place. Again, the Rules do allow relief without penalty for embedded balls as well as casual water relief, which are really the only "unplayable lie conditions" which rain may create.
As for DJ cheating, I can't say I recall any on course situation where he knowingly broke a Rule. At the PGA Championship, Whistling Straits, he chose not to learn the Rules (waste bunker vs common bunker) for that week's play and it cost him.
Several years ago Tiger cheated at TPC by taking a point of entry drop more than 200 yards past of where his ball actually crossed the line of the hazard. Vijay Singh , declaring point of water hazard entry next to the 11th green instead of in front of the pond where his ball actually crossed the hazard line, thereby cheating en route to his "winning" the 2000 Masters.
Slugger White was the lead official who covered up Cink's cheating at Harbour Town. But Slugger White has never been the "commissioner" of the PGA Tour. At that time Tim Finchem was Tour Commissioner, and he should have fired White for that incident, but White is still employed today as a Tour Rules Official.
For your own game, if you have Rules questions you can learn by reading the USGA Rules book. Or, at www.usga.org there is a telephone number you may call for Rules related questions.

 

[Smiter]

Not familiar with this incident, but am curious at to what you think required Slugger White to accompany Cink to the waste bunker?

Me too. It seems a line has been drawn in the mud, per se. I'm anxious to hear your explanation on this and also why the entire PGA is filled with cheaters. My case can take a backseat to the answer here. I'm just a lowly bottom level cheater. Those guys are much loftier in their cheaterdom.

 

[DG_1234]

Not familiar with this incident, but am curious at to what you think required Slugger White to accompany Cink to the waste bunker?

There was a playoff between Cink and (I think) Ted Purdy.
At the tee box Cink pulled his shot well left into a waste bunker and as he was leaving the tee box he asked Slugger White to clarify what debris may be removed from a waste bunker. White replied "shells may be removed, but not sand".
Once at his ball Cink proceeded to squat on his heels and use his finger to create a trench behind his ball. From there Cink knocked his ball on the green and "won" the playoff.
However, the tv broadcasters (and presumably anyone watching with knowledge of the Rules of Golf), questioned Cink's behavior. Once inside the clubhouse Cink was asked to watch a video of himself in the waste bunker . He and Slugger White watched the video and then the "cover up" happened. Cink covered up his cheating and White covered up his negligence as a Rules Official.
What Cink should have done is admit he made a mistake and defer the tournament victory to Ted Purdy.
For his part Slugger White should have admitted that he should have accompanied Cink to the waste bunker, because if he had done so, the Rules violation might not have happened.
But neither man did the right thing and I believe it cost Cink his former good reputation, at least among players.
The bottom line is that regardless of whether it was permitted that sand and, or, shells be removed without penalty, Cink's big mistake was that he used his finger to create a trench and "build a lie for himself".
Only on a tee box is building a lie permitted. Cink knew this, all experienced tournament players know this, Rules officials know this etc...and that's why this case is such an obvious example of cheating.