Single Plane Swing - Simplified Biomechanics?

[Scooby555]

I am much more S&T now for irons. SPS for driver and hybrids. I really wouldn't say I am textbook for any but have found something that works for me. I am making solid contact the majority of the time now.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Here's a pretty good analysis of Bryson's swing. Compares his older swing to his latest. I watched this several times to try to understand what the main similarities and differences are between my swing and his swing, or his swing and a more traditional swings, at least from a general viewpoint.

In the video the narrator talks about his setup position with the arms more extended and more flexed knees at address. That is consistent with what's been discussed on here in terms of setup position, with the main difference is the extended arms vs. more hanging arms. His prior position was a little more upright vs. more bent over now.

Then on the takeaway he delays his wrist break which the narrator points out creates a wider arc which is true...at that particular point in his swing. That's because he maintains straight right wrist mid way back. However, the length of his left arm is static, therefore the maximum arc will always be the same with any swing (provided straight left arm) plus the length of the driver, assuming no change in driver length.

At the top he hinges his wrists like any other swing, and a lot. His prior top of his swing had a less wrist hinge (see pic). His latest wrist hinge at the top reminds me of Couples (reminds me, not identical). As he starts the downswing, his swing arc drastically decreases from the backswing arc due to initial hip rotation which obviously pulls the club handle down, shallows the club, which is consistent with any other swing. His impact position is similar to most any other swing. He lowers - crouches on the down swing and has great hip rotation, like many other tour pros.

Overall, other than address position and delayed wrist break on the backswing, I see more similarities than differences between his swing and most other tour pros with "traditional" swings. This is why I struggle with SPS, it feels like the same swing but with a different start point, and I really cannot see the "single plane" throughout his swing. Maybe I simply don't understand the concept which is possible.

I'd like to hear what others think.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

good luck with that. Your's may be different, but anytime I switch back and forth between two different swing methods, it messes me up. Some have had trouble with SnT by attempting it on their own without observation from qualified SnT instructor. I am not saying this is in your case, just from what I've read. I "think" I am doing it right, but I really do not know for sure. I am having good results with SPS though. (Crossing my fingers, it will prevail). 145 with an eight iron is not bad. That "was" my seven iron distance, but I have lost a lot through out the bag the last several years. My old eight iron was about 135 yds. Today? WIP.

You'll like this....I use the claw grip for most putts and left hand under for long putts or putts out of the rough around the green. I've had several S&T instructors which certainly made the change much easier and faster. And like with any swing, thinking you're doing it right without help can lead down rabbit holes. I've seen lots of guys take lessons, hit the ball well, then get out on the course, blow a few shots, then depart from the program and back to square one. This is why a lot of instructors now want to teach on the course if possible. Range flat lies with no "good / bad" is wildly different than a 150 yard shot over water to a green.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I am much more S&T now for irons. SPS for driver and hybrids. I really wouldn't say I am textbook for any but have found something that works for me. I am making solid contact the majority of the time now.

We all have our approaches, but I'm more in line with you, but I use S&T for most all clubs other than Driver and 3W which I migrate to a more neutral weight distribution at address, with slightly more "reaching" to the ball....probably a hybrid of SPS setup position.

 

[pinseeker]

Although I am not a huge fan of SnT, I do recognize it would help a large number of amateurs to have more consistent low point and compression resulting in more distance. I recently read an article that a tour player would "not" see an increase in distance as they already have a good swing. That being said, I am not dismissing it out of hand. It would appear that this thread has morphed (a little) into S&T from the OP of Single Plane. Probably a good idea to compare the two.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Although I am not a huge fan of SnT, I do recognize it would help a large number of amateurs to have more consistent low point and compression resulting in more distance. I recently read an article that a tour player would "not" see an increase in distance as they already have a good swing. That being said, I am not dismissing it out of hand. It would appear that this thread has morphed (a little) into S&T from the OP of Single Plane. Probably a good idea to compare the two.

The morphing is my fault...LOL. I think it's worthwhile to compare the two methods, but then again, one has to be DOING either method as intended / instructed to be able to actually draw comparisons. I'm pretty sure most of us are into some hybrid swings that "feel" like a "new" swing really not much has actually changed. As for S&T distance, hitting a 7 iron 170+ is more than enough, but distance is not my primary goal. Directional stability and distance control are most important. The difference between an "OK" swing and a great swing is at least 10, if not 15 yards for my irons.

For example, I was about 105 yards out for which my "half-azz" swing is the max yardage for my U wedge or about 105. I took a shorter swing for sure, likely a 3/4 max, but hit the ball "perfectly" and the ball flew 115 into the rough behind the green. The problem for me is I'm not sure "which golfer" is going to hit some of my shots! Lol.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

I may have to abandon Single-Plane Swing. Third trip to the range, today, and, again: Truly abysmal driver experience Funny thing is: I had thought I'd gotten things straightened-out yesterday in the back yard. And up until two weeks ago I was hitting better than ever with the driver, and improving.

I can hit well with the irons, but I still haven't regained the distance I used to get with a traditional swing. Driver? I had three range trips that went well, then three in a row that have been abysmal.

Stopped into the store and talked to the store manager about instruction. As I expected: None of their pros teach SPS. So I'm not going to find any help there, and I'm at the point I don't think I'm going to get my swing flaws corrected on my own, no matter what Todd Graves says about the simplicity of the setup, etc. of SPS.

As a test, btw: With what little light remained I got the mat out and tried traditional swing with my 7i. Two test hits with limited-flight balls went well, so I sacrificed a real ball to the woods. Hit it perfectly--and probably as far as, if not farther, than anything I did today at the range.

The driver? Well, I was all over the place.

I'll give SPS one more go at the range. If things don't turn around with the driver, I think I'll be moving on.

 

[pinseeker]

The secret to the SSP is SOP. "staying on plane". What I believe happens is that those who take it up begin to add in variables and nuances that detract from the original premise. They do not do this knowingly, it just happens, creeping in if you will. Trying to take a good thing and "make it better". Granted, there are several "cons" of the swing and it is not meant to be a cure all but does help many that need it. One has to give up something to gain something. The most complaints I have heard are a bit of distance lost and the inability to hit a fade (without a lot of work). OTOH, it is a simpler swing, easier to master, and for many, their "natural" propensity. As for SPS instructors, I personally would go with someone like Kirk Junge rather than like Todd Graves who basically wants to model it after Moe Norman who had to make some major compensations for his to work, not to mention his equipment mods that would more than likely create havoc for us mere mortals. "Any change in swing can work wonders - until it doesn't". That being said, I will be looking forward to a later assessment from @MaybeDuffer with anticipation.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Good comments, @pinseeker. Thanks.

As I noted: At one point I was hitting the driver better than ever. Dispersion-wise, anyway. Few fades, and those baby fades. No slices. The occasional baby draw. As with my irons: I sacrificed some distance. But I'm ok with that. I expected, with practice, to get most of that back. And I'm fine with trading some distance for playable lies, anyway

So I know I can do it.

I think I figured out what I was doing wrongly, today, and it was really, really dumb. I'd let a component of TS sneak in while I was warming up with my 7i and smart-ish ball. It didn't show up with the irons--at least not glaringly. But it sure did with the driver and explains why I was consistently swinging OTT. I knew my swing felt off. I just couldn't tell why at the time. <smh>

 

[pinseeker]

@MaybeDuffer. What do you mean by TS?

 

[Duffer Seamus]

@MaybeDuffer. What do you mean by TS?

Traditional Swing. What I was taught in class. TPS? Two-Plane Swing?

 

[pinseeker]

ah. TS Traditional Swing, that is what I thought but was not certain, thanks.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

IMO I don't see a single plane swing in the SPS. I tend to think this is more myth than reality. The downswing is identical to any other down swing. So what is the single plane? I've watched Bryson's swing over and over and his down swing is no different than that of any other tour player. Yes, he starts out with arms extended, but all of that seems to evaporate once he starts the down swing. What am I missing?

 

[Duffer Seamus]

IMO I don't see a single plane swing in the SPS. I tend to think this is more myth than reality. The downswing is identical to any other down swing. So what is the single plane? ... What am I missing?

Yeah, the down-swing is the same as any other swing--kind of. The point is the setup and take-away are on the same plane as the down-swing, whereas with a TS they're not. This is why, with a TS, you have to twist your spine into a pretzel on the down-swing. You set up with your hands roughly over your shoe laces. When you swing your arms move out. To maintain club head alignment, you twist your midsection to bring it back. Both Junge and Graves explain and demonstrate it quite well.

I can't speak to BAD's swing. I haven't watched it all that closely.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Yeah, the down-swing is the same as any other swing--kind of. The point is the setup and take-away are on the same plane as the down-swing, whereas with a TS they're not. This is why, with a TS, you have to twist your spine into a pretzel on the down-swing. You set up with your hands roughly over your shoe laces. When you swing your arms move out. To maintain club head alignment, you twist your midsection to bring it back. Both Junge and Graves explain and demonstrate it quite well.

I can't speak to BAD's swing. I haven't watched it all that closely.

I see what you're saying about the backswing, but I struggle with the concept that the TS swing causes more contortions on the downswing. Watch Bryson's downswing and compare to other pro's. Unless I'm not seeing something in particular, from an external view it's highly similar to other tour pro's which, to me, which means the SPS downswing requires the same or very similar movements as the TS. IMO his swing seems more like a hybrid of SPS and TS, or SPS on the setup and backswing, then TS on the downswing. I'll check out the Junge and Graves videos again.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

There's SPS and there's SPS. Even comparing Junge and Graves you can see differences. E.g.: Grave employs a much wider stance with the driver.

Now both of them do a tilt with the driver--maintaining a flatter swing through the ball strike, but the angle between club shaft and spine is relatively constant.

SPS does work--at least for me. Or can. With irons my hitting is so remarkably consistent I can hardly believe my eyes. I'm finding the bottom of my swing well--which had been a big challenge for me with TS. Rarely chunk or hit it very thin. Excellent dispersion. I was getting similar results from my driver for a while there.

I think I'm going to have to video myself to see what I'm doing wrong with the driver.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Just filled-out the contact form at Moe Norman Golf, seeking a local SPS instructor. Spent some time on the mat in the backyard to try to figure out what's gone wrong with my driver swing. Still no joy

I am not, for some reason, able to get under the ball at the tee and can't seem to figure out why. Whatever it is, it must be a massive flaw, because I've so far corrected two flaws I was able to identify and I'm still not hitting well with the driver.

 

[pinseeker]

with single plane we are taught to get into same impact position we had at address, forward shaft lean, hands leading, (lag) bowed lead wrist and even emphasize the wrist thing well past contact. Driver as we know is to hit up into a tee'd ball. It is a whole different feel, no divot obviously. Wrist is still pretty much flat, but you are consciously "pivoting" upwards. At least that is "my" take on it. On another note, there is no such thing as a perfectly single plane swing, but that is a debate for another time. (Hogan's glass ceiling tilts on the downswing).

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

with single plane we are taught to get into same impact position we had at address, forward shaft lean, hands leading, (lag) bowed lead wrist and even emphasize the wrist thing well past contact. Driver as we know is to hit up into a tee'd ball. It is a whole different feel, no divot obviously. Wrist is still pretty much flat, but you are consciously "pivoting" upwards. At least that is "my" take on it. On another note, there is no such thing as a perfectly single plane swing, but that is a debate for another time. (Hogan's glass ceiling tilts on the downswing).

I agree with you about their being no such thing as a perfect single plane swing. It seems to me if impact positions are somewhat "universal" then the downswings cannot be different. So it seems address position and backswing is kinda inconsequential.....no?

 

[pinseeker]

I agree with you about their being no such thing as a perfect single plane swing. It seems to me if impact positions are somewhat "universal" then the downswings cannot be different. So it seems address position and backswing is kinda inconsequential.....no?

In Italy, all roads lead to Rome.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Just filled-out the contact form at Moe Norman Golf, seeking a local SPS instructor. Spent some time on the mat in the backyard to try to figure out what's gone wrong with my driver swing. Still no joy

I am not, for some reason, able to get under the ball at the tee and can't seem to figure out why. Whatever it is, it must be a massive flaw, because I've so far corrected two flaws I was able to identify and I'm still not hitting well with the driver.

I think the key to any fundamentally good swing is staying connected on the backswing, or keeping the butt-end of the club in front of the chest as long as possible to the top. This is my #1 check point for my swing because it is SO EASY to get lazy and arm-it to the top, especially when fatigue sets-in.

 

[nlk10010]

Just filled-out the contact form at Moe Norman Golf, seeking a local SPS instructor. Spent some time on the mat in the backyard to try to figure out what's gone wrong with my driver swing. Still no joy

I am not, for some reason, able to get under the ball at the tee and can't seem to figure out why. Whatever it is, it must be a massive flaw, because I've so far corrected two flaws I was able to identify and I'm still not hitting well with the driver.

Where is the ball relative to your lead shoulder? My take is that the lead shoulder defines the point at which the lead wrist flattens out; i.e. the lead arm and shaft form a straight line. If the ball is to the trail side then you'll get the handle leading at impact, if the ball is right at the shoulder then you'll come in level and if the ball is ahead of the lead shoulder you'll impact on the upswing. I think Graves "addresses" this point in at least one of his videos.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Where is the ball relative to your lead shoulder?

I'll have to look, but not today. It's snowing to beat the band out there right now, so no practice for me today.

I'm going to have to video myself. I think I'm not doing what I believe I'm doing during the swing. Due to where I position the mat and the direction I hit I can't see this when I'm trying to hit the ball, but, when I practice with the Orange Whip I'm actually facing one of our surveillance cameras and I can see, while doing that, I'm not doing quite what I think I am.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

For those trying the SPS did you know Bryson uses a jumbo oversize grip? I didn't. I linked a video analysis of that grip vs. a standard size grip. I guess the thing to keep in mind is he has blazing speed so the large grip may be required to slow the closure of the clubface, and the rest of us would hit to the right, and possibly slice...but who knows for sure?

From search:

What size grip does Bryson DeChambeau use?

“The oversized grip has been a big part of my success,” said DeChambeau, who plays with an X-Large grip, which has a 4.38-inch circumference. “The idea that I can have more area on the grip to hold the club makes it the number one reason I used it as an amateur and now as a professional."

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Where is the ball relative to your lead shoulder? My take is that the lead shoulder defines the point at which the lead wrist flattens out; i.e. the lead arm and shaft form a straight line. If the ball is to the trail side then you'll get the handle leading at impact, if the ball is right at the shoulder then you'll come in level and if the ball is ahead of the lead shoulder you'll impact on the upswing. I think Graves "addresses" this point in at least one of his videos.

My point of reference is my left armpit. Nicklaus and Hogan played the ball off the inside of their left heel for that reason for most shots because that's where the bottom of the swing arc is if we swing with our left arm only in rotation. At impact the left hand should be straight at the bottom of the arc. If I find myself moving the ball back in my stance it's most often because I'm getting lazy to rotate back in a connected fashion to the top which promotes a more right-side dominant downswing.