USGA Course Rating Definitions - Need Refinement?

[Canadan]

I just think if you are really trying to be competitive in an event, you should prepare yourself for that event. At that point where people SHOULD be playing from goes out the window because they are knowingly playing in an event that is played from where they should not be playing from. I'm sorry, I will never see the point in just throwing strokes to players who fail to properly prepare themselves.

But like I said earlier in this thread, maybe I'm just a huge jerk.

Yeah, I get it. Leave the tournaments and advantages to those who can hit it far, or get an inflated handicap from the tournament tees. Forget 'fun for everyone' or 'tee it forward' because it's about playing from the tournament tees to establish that handicap!

It's an old school way to look at the game, and I can't wait for golf to get out of it's own way and be fair for everyone. If people don't like it, many tournaments have a scratch division from the tips.

 

[Dave Alvarado]

Are the tips the same yardage you are going to play for The Legacy? If they are, then I think you should practice from that yardage if you are going to try and be competitive with other players at that same yardage.

We may be playing from mixed tees.

The good news about #THPLegacy is it's being run by guys who understand the flaws in the handicap system and presumably have some workaround. I trust JB knows what he's doing hosting an event.

 

[blugold]

We may be playing from mixed tees.

The good news about #THPLegacy is it's being run by guys who understand the flaws in the handicap system and presumably have some workaround. I trust JB knows what he's doing hosting an event.

For your piece of mind, I have yet to play a thp event from the tips.

Nonetheless, proper tournament tees should be a mixture of yardages and distances.

 

[Playdough]

They are improving, buddy. They are looking at ways to tee it forward in tournaments and it's a big step - Frankly I think a lot of Private Courses are living in another era of golf, but surely they'll come around.

What it's going to become host to now, is a mess of golfers beyond beyond their tee it forward tees, establishing a handicap, and then moving up and playing well beyond their handicap in tournaments. Will be fun to see how courses handle that.

I'm sure there is a way through a declaration of tee or something. I know within the Indiana Golf system, when I post my scores it basically list the tee I played from at the course I played. If someone is playing the majority of their golf at the same course and is playing back a tee from their club declared tournament tee then either they play from that tee or play scratch from their declared tee. Now this changes some if you are playing a tournament or match outside your club, but for the sake of dicussion we'll assume all play is at your club.

 

[Playdough]

I just think if you are really trying to be competitive in an event, you should prepare yourself for that event. At that point where people SHOULD be playing from goes out the window because they are knowingly playing in an event that is played from where they should not be playing from. I'm sorry, I will never see the point in just throwing strokes to players who fail to properly prepare themselves.

But like I said earlier in this thread, maybe I'm just a huge jerk.

Yeah, I get it. Leave the tournaments and advantages to those who can hit it far, or get an inflated handicap from the tournament tees. Forget 'fun for everyone' or 'tee it forward' because it's about playing from the tournament tees to establish that handicap!

It's an old school way to look at the game, and I can't wait for golf to get out of it's own way and be fair for everyone. If people don't like it, many tournaments have a scratch division from the tips.

Dan, I don't think he is saying to play from the tips to get an inflated handicap. I think what hes trying to get at is that if you know/think you are going to play a tournament from 66xx yards, you should play your practice rounds from 66xx yards to prepare for that distance. It doesn't do you anygood to play from 60xx then have to play a tournament from 66xx.

To Mulligans point, the Indiana Golf Assocation basically post the yardage and tee's that the tournments will be played at. So I know when I go practice at XY course, that the tourament XY course is hosting is going to play xxxx yards. So I'll play that course from those tees that give me xxxx yards. I wouldnt go to that course and play it from yyyy yards because that does me no good when my tournament round is going to be xxxx yards.

 

[Mulligan9111]

Dan, I don't think he is saying to play from the tips to get an inflated handicap. I think what hes trying to get at is that if you know/think you are going to play a tournament from 66xx yards, you should play your practice rounds from 66xx yards to prepare for that distance. It doesn't do you anygood to play from 60xx then have to play a tournament from 66xx.

To Mulligans point, the Indiana Golf Assocation basically post the yardage and tee's that the tournments will be played at. So I know when I go practice at XY course, that the tourament XY course is hosting is going to play xxxx yards. So I'll play that course from those tees that give me xxxx yards. I wouldnt go to that course and play it from yyyy yards because that does me no good when my tournament round is going to be xxxx yards.

Thanks Playdough, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

[Canadan]

Dan, I don't think he is saying to play from the tips to get an inflated handicap. I think what hes trying to get at is that if you know/think you are going to play a tournament from 66xx yards, you should play your practice rounds from 66xx yards to prepare for that distance. It doesn't do you anygood to play from 60xx then have to play a tournament from 66xx.

What if it's a casual round for a beer, and you feel like moving back for fun? If your handicap doesn't translate, there's no point.

 

[Mulligan9111]

What if it's a casual round for a beer, and you feel like moving back for fun? If your handicap doesn't translate, there's no point.

If that's the case, then simply have your playing partners agree to an adjustment. There doesn't have to be an "official" handicap when it's just you and your buddies.

 

[Playdough]

What if it's a casual round for a beer, and you feel like moving back for fun? If your handicap doesn't translate, there's no point.

I think we are talking about two different things though. He is talking about tourament prep. I personally don't tournament prep till about 2 weeks out from the event, and those rounds probably aren't going to even be scored. So the mass of my rounds are going to be from a different distance that are going to be more my true handicap and probably from a further distance back as the IGA likes to play most open events around 64-65xx. The closed events play more like 68-70xxx.

If its a casual round for a beer, i'm not worried about my cap or your cap. I'm just going to ask you what you think is fair number of shots and lets go.. but thats me.

 

[Canadan]

If that's the case, then simply have your playing partners agree to an adjustment. There doesn't have to be an "official" handicap when it's just you and your buddies.

so are you admitting to the flaw in the handicap system? You just don't want anything to change about it.

 

[Mulligan9111]

so are you admitting to the flaw in the handicap system? You just don't want anything to change about it.

No, not even close. I'm saying that if you and your playing partners feel there is a flaw, then adjust it to whatever you want it to be.

 

[rollin]

Not sure if this has been brought up somewhere in this encyclopedia's length of a topic lol Its all good

But what say you (or what say canadan) if they were to add the rating difference to the players HC. So if the players cap that was established form his forward tees is a 10 and those tees are rated 68 and the tourney tees are rated lets say 73 that's 5 strokes. How about him being considered a 15 for that event? Would that work and be fair to all?

 

[Canadan]

I think we are talking about two different things though. He is talking about tourament prep. I personally don't tournament prep till about 2 weeks out from the event, and those rounds probably aren't going to even be scored. So the mass of my rounds are going to be from a different distance that are going to be more my true handicap and probably from a further distance back as the IGA likes to play most open events around 64-65xx. The closed events play more like 68-70xxx.

If its a casual round for a beer, i'm not worried about my cap or your cap. I'm just going to ask you what you think is fair number of shots and lets go.. but thats me.

We probably are, but the entire design of the thread is to talk about the handicap system and the flaws that are associated with it with regards to a variable of distance performance between each golfer. I have issues with how tournaments are structured on golf courses, but that's for another thread entirely.

 

[Canadan]

Not sure if this has been brought up somewhere in this encyclopedia's length of a topic lol Its all good

But what say you (or what say canadan) if they were to add the rating difference to the players HC. So if the players cap that was established form his forward tees is a 10 and those tees are rated 68 and the tourney tees are rated lets say 73 that's 5 strokes. How about him being considered a 15 for that event? Would that work and be fair to all?

I would imagine that would be much closer, however it relies on the idea that handicaps are established from a single distance to perform. Scrambling them even half and half destroys that concept.

 

[Canadan]

No, not even close. I'm saying that if you and your playing partners feel there is a flaw, then adjust it to whatever you want it to be.

It's simple, dude. Either the handicap system is efficient as it is, or it is not. I've provided clear examples of where it's not, and so have others.

Claiming things and using actual experiences are two very different things. You're reaching if you think a golfer who establishes his handicap at 6,000 yards, with a driver distance of 200 yards, can achieve the slope rating based handicap that GHIN (as an example) would provide if he were to move back to 7,000.

Now, to be clear:
- Saying he shouldn't play there is not an argument for the performance of the system itself.
- Saying he should establish his handicap from those tees if he wants to be competitive from there is not an argument for the performance of the system itself (it's actually working against it).

 

[sparksjr]

sounds like we need to post driver distances with our scores and find a magic formula that spits out different handicaps based on different course lengths. Anyone have the number of the BCS committee?

 

[Playdough]

We probably are, but the entire design of the thread is to talk about the handicap system and the flaws that are associated with it with regards to a variable of distance performance between each golfer. I have issues with how tournaments are structured on golf courses, but that's for another thread entirely.

I can agree that the distance thing is probably an issue. But...I'm not sure that factoring distance into an the handicap equation is doable. Thats a giagantic variable. Take the inflation/deflation part out of it, because theres going to be a percentage that are going to inflate/deflate that number, just a given. How do you determine where the value comes from? Does a course select certain holes? Does the USGA come in a select certain holes? How I play course could vary greatly from how someone else plays the course, thus an artificial variance that affects the number. Do courses then need to be rerated for the new distance averages that would come with all the new data? As we learned thats a 5 to 10 year process to do for all courses across the country at a great expense i'm sure. Not only to the USGA, but to the course to reprint scorecards, up date websites, yardage books and other things.

I'll agree that its an inperfect system, but what about golf is perfect? Dr. Bob Rotella will tell you with his last breath, "Golf is not a game Perfect."

 

[Mulligan9111]

It's simple, dude. Either the handicap system is efficient as it is, or it is not. I've provided clear examples of where it's not, and so have others.

Claiming things and using actual experiences are two very different things. You're reaching if you think a golfer who establishes his handicap at 6,000 yards, with a driver distance of 200 yards, can achieve the slope rating based handicap that GHIN (as an example) would provide if he were to move back to 7,000.

Now, to be clear:
- Saying he shouldn't play there is not an argument for the performance of the system itself.
- Saying he should establish his handicap from those tees if he wants to be competitive from there is not an argument for the performance of the system itself (it's actually working against it).

The simple thing here is that we both have very different experiences, and very different thoughts on the matter.

 

[Canadan]

I can agree that the distance thing is probably an issue. But...I'm not sure that factoring distance into an the handicap equation is doable. Thats a giagantic variable. Take the inflation/deflation part out of it, because theres going to be a percentage that are going to inflate/deflate that number, just a given. How do you determine where the value comes from? Does a course select certain holes? Does the USGA come in a select certain holes? How I play course could vary greatly from how someone else plays the course, thus an artificial variance that affects the number. Do courses then need to be rerated for the new distance averages that would come with all the new data? As we learned thats a 5 to 10 year process to do for all courses across the country at a great expense i'm sure. Not only to the USGA, but to the course to reprint scorecards, up date websites, yardage books and other things.

I'll agree that its an inperfect system, but what about golf is perfect? Dr. Bob Rotella will tell you with his last breath, "Golf is not a game Perfect."

I don't think the ratings need to change. I believe the way that we incorporate our handicap numbers into the tee length we play does.

The simple thing here is that we both have very different experiences, and very different thoughts on the matter.

Do you actually have experiences or are you just basing everything on assumption? Genuinely curious.

 

[Mulligan9111]

I don't think the ratings need to change. I believe the way that we incorporate our handicap numbers into the tee length we play does.



Do you actually have experiences or are you just basing everything on assumption? Genuinely curious.

I have actual experiences. I worked at a country club that held many handicapped events and many non-handicapped events. I set up the vast majority of these events, scored them, and dealt with all the handicaps of the players. I have seen how golfer's handicaps have traveled to other courses and I have seen how their scores have changed based on the tee boxes they played at our course.

Outside of that I have played in a ridiculous amount of handicapped events throughout the years with golfers of all skill levels and distances.

And yes, I was the one who mentioned that I never had any member, guest, or tournament participant come into the pro shop and complain to me that they needed more strokes because of the length of the golf course.

 

[darnall]

sounds like we need to post driver distances with our scores and find a magic formula that spits out different handicaps based on different course lengths. Anyone have the number of the BCS committee?

Oh heck don't get them involved... you guys from SEC country would get all the breaks and favors....hahahaha

 

[Canadan]

I have actual experiences. I worked at a country club that held many handicapped events and many non-handicapped events. I set up the vast majority of these events, scored them, and dealt with all the handicaps of the players. I have seen how golfer's handicaps have traveled to other courses and I have seen how their scores have changed based on the tee boxes they played at our course.

Outside of that I have played in a ridiculous amount of handicapped events throughout the years with golfers of all skill levels and distances.

And yes, I was the one who mentioned that I never had any member, guest, or tournament participant come into the pro shop and complain to me that they needed more strokes because of the length of the golf course.

Oh, right, I remember that. Thanks for confirming.

 

[Playdough]

I don't think the ratings need to change. I believe the way that we incorporate our handicap numbers into the tee length we play does.

But I think the ratings would have to change, wouldnt they? Because now you can base the "base yardage" off of a much more accurate number. No longer is 210 a bogey golfer distance. 210 could actually be a scratch golfer distance and 180 a bogey golf distance. So the ratings would have to change as the USGA learns what the actual distances people of x.x handicap actually hit the ball. You would either have to throw the "base yardage" idea out or use the new more accurate date which would then require a re-rate.

 

[Dave Alvarado]

But I think the ratings would have to change, wouldnt they? Because now you can base the "base yardage" off of a much more accurate number. No longer is 210 a bogey golfer distance. 210 could actually be a scratch golfer distance and 180 a bogey golf distance. So the ratings would have to change as the USGA learns what the actual distances people of x.x handicap actually hit the ball. You would either have to throw the "base yardage" idea out or use the new more accurate date which would then require a re-rate.

I think that "x.x handicap hits y distance" has a faulty assumption built in. There are scratch golfers that carry 250 with a driver and scratch golfers that carry 300 with a driver. I had mentioned it way earlier in this thread, I think that even if the average distance of scratch and bogey golfers is similar now to 30 years ago, the standard deviation is much bigger, especially on the bogey side.

I came across this: http://www.milesofgolf.com/blog/golf-clubs/vintage-vs-technology/

Some interesting stuff in there. They tested old club tech against new club tech (up to 2009) using a range of testers. Some interesting points:

From the hickories in the 1920s to titanium drivers of 2009, there was an average increase of total distance of 26%. For the testers, the smallest increase was 37 yards and the biggest was 73 yards.

The greatest improvement from one era to the next came with the titanium drivers. Roughly one-half the increase in distance (13%) took place between the late persimmon / early stainless steel drivers of the 1980s and the current titanium.

Higher club-head speed players had a greater PERCENTAGE increase in distance. Slower swingers had low 20% range increases while faster swingers had increases in the low 30% range.

There was noticeable improvement in distance with the club fitted for the player over just a random 2009 titanium driver.

Interesting that the advent of the titanium driver made such a huge impact on driving distances. And more importantly, you get *more* benefit the faster you swing (i.e. long hitters gain more distance than short hitters switching from old clubs to new ones). That goes right along with what I'm saying--if you assume that swing speeds have stayed relatively constant, the spread between a long hitter and a short hitter has gotten wider.

 

[emart2173]

That is does not work is my biggest gripe.

I'm not in here claiming people should play from way back, I'm simply stating the handicap system does not allow for it. I'll ALWAYS encourage tee it forward.

yep. i know what yardage works for me and where my abilities will suffer when i get to the wrong tee box. its fun to move back and play longer tees from time to time with a group of guys but i wouldn't want to struggle with hitting longer clubs than i am used to into holes. after playing for a few years with these guys and watching them hit into the greens with 3w or something longer than most of us, i know its not fun for them but not sure why they aren't moving up a tee box.

after reading this thread and comparing to the guys i play with i get where you are coming from and agree the system is messed up and penalizes short knockers when they have to move back. i am not sure what the solution is.