Wyndham Clark - Rules Violation?

[War Eagle]

to me, this was a pretty clear violation of the rules with intent

But he stated there was no intent, how can intent be proven?

 

[Canadan]

Interesting. The way the rule is written a player could argue that they grounded the club “ lightly and they did not “ press” the club on the ground. I dont think it is well written and leads to situations like this. Not sure of the best way to write it but i dont think this is it. Clearly though the player woud know if they “ pressed “ the club on the ground but at what point does it go from “ grounding lightly “ to “ pressing “.

I think if you watch the video, you can pretty clearly see where 'grounding lightly" turns into pressing (twice).

This rule is a tough one, but I think it's written pretty much the only way it can to allow for reasonable (and honest) play.

 

[Jeff Spicoli]

I saw one of the comments saying "imagine this was Reed" and I think they are right.

Getting a pass or roasted based on who is doing it is ridiculous.

I agree that the rules are the rules, (or I thought they were) but Reed's history is interesting with these sort of things.

It's crazy we've already had multiple instances of this already this season. I believe it was Pavon who had this sort of thing in Torrey Pines.

 

[mikeg_74]

They do this all the time to improve their lie.. It is way after a wayward drive you will see them carrying their driver down the fairway at times. They will then sole a the driver or fairway wood and improve their lie. then switch to an iron..

agree and that is why it should be a penalty every time & not some arbitrary time deemed by the rules official.

 

[jjjgolf500]

ever hit a floating lie wedge shot out of rough?

Give me the floater over one sitting down like it did all day long!

 

[Daluteh]

Yes. Where he got a favorable ruling and then dropped it where he trampled numerous times into a perfect lie.

The game of golf relies heavily on integrity. Repetition of questionable integrity is a very bad look.

Then I'm starting to see a trend, whether it is or not. We're still early in the season but now there are 2 strange calls on him and I have not really heard of any for anyone else.

 

[War Eagle]

I would definitely have penalized him. I can buy perhaps they didn't see the movement with the naked eye, but I definitely would have penalized him for the force with which he grounded his club.

FYI, the commenters are incorrect in saying there is no penalty if you cause the ball to move while addressing the ball. There's no penalty if you accidentally touch the ball with your club, if the ball does not move.

Also saying "I didn't intend to move the ball" doesn't work except on the putting green and when taking a swing on the tee. If you accidentally move the ball on the tee without the intent to make a stroke, there is no penalty. But if you cause a ball in the general area to move, it's a penalty (with some exceptions like searching).

It is ironic some of the very same commentators who have railed against the "ridiculous USGA" and all it's unnecessary and restrictive rules are now arguing with a straight face the rules are too permissive.

But how can this be enforced on the tee box, if you swing and "accidently" hit your ball, it's fine?

 

[Parrot]

when I saw the replay the ball moved and didn't go back to its original spot.

I thought the same thing when I saw it. Looking at it again, I'm still convinced the ball moved forward.

At a minimum, by pressing the club down, he pressed down grass and exposed more of the ball. He tested and improved his lie. He pressed down in 2 different places, the last being 2 or 3 times at the back of the ball.

 

[amarkabove]

It feels like a lot of the people commenting on this (outside of this thread) are trying to say it's "technically not a violation" because of the ball move thing with Hideki a couple weeks ago, even though the situations are completely different as Hideki didn't look like he was trying to make a smash burger with his club head like Clark is here.

 

[jdtox]

Doesn't that bother you?

A rule is a rule.

I don't know. I guess It bothers me less because guys do it all the time and I'm sure there are plenty of times its happened and nothing has been said about it.

 

[Canadan]

Give me the floater over one sitting down like it did all day long!

 

[Canadan]

I don't know. I guess It bothers me less because guys do it all the time and I'm sure there are plenty of times its happened and nothing has been said about it.

fascinating.

 

[wadesworld]

Interesting. The way the rule is written a player could argue that they grounded the club “ lightly and they did not “ press” the club on the ground. I dont think it is well written and leads to situations like this. Not sure of the best way to write it but i dont think this is it. Clearly though the player woud know if they “ pressed “ the club on the ground but at what point does it go from “ grounding lightly “ to “ pressing “.

Writing a rule is very difficult. The more specific you make it, the more "That's such utterly stupid rule" territory you get yourself into because it removes any subjectivity. The more vague you make it, the more you open the door to it being ruled completely differently despite similar situations.

It's pretty clear from the video though that he did more than allow the weight of the club to rest on the ground (or grass in this case), which is the standard for the rule.

 

[Templet0n]

agree and that is why it should be a penalty every time & not some arbitrary time deemed by the rules official.

Intent should never be a concern when applying rules outcomes..

I didn’t intend face mask,
I didn’t intend to hack you on a layup,
I didn’t intend to rob a liquor store…

I don’t care what you intended to do. I can see what you did and it’s against the rules..

 

[jdtox]

fascinating.

To be fair I had not watched the entire video until just now and did not see it live. Assuming it was a small move that doesn't violate the rules. So a partial skim haha

My comments in general were about the act of grounding the club in the rough which I see all the time. After watching the video at regular speed I do think that was done with intention and should have been a penalty.

 

[mikeg_74]

Intent should never be a concern when applying rules verdicts..

I didn’t intend face mask,
I didn’t intend to hack you on a layup,
I didn’t intend to rob a liquor store…

I am not questioning intent, I am trusting my eyes that saw the ball move and not rest in its original spot. That happened as a direct action of Clark.

 

[Canadan]

I'll ask another question..

With the amount that ball moved each time he patted down the ball, do you REALLY think he couldn't see it happen, and recognize what he was doing? I've had lies like this before and could absolutely easily see what I was doing.. Fortunately never in tournament/competitive play so I can't say whether I'd do the right thing since it hasn't happened yet, but... I know what that kind of movement looks like.

..and yet another, you go up to your ball and clearly see it hanging in the rough, are you doing this same thing?

 

[Bernoulli]

But he stated there was no intent, how can intent be proven?

I don't think you can because it's subjective.

 

[Elmave]

I think if you watch the video, you can pretty clearly see where 'grounding lightly" turns into pressing (twice).

This rule is a tough one, but I think it's written pretty much the only way it can to allow for reasonable (and honest) play.

Agree completely. At the end of the day it comes down to reasonable and honest play. And i dont know any other way to write it. It certainly looks like he violated the rule . I would expect more from a player.

 

[wadesworld]

But how can this be enforced on the tee box, if you swing and "accidently" hit your ball, it's fine?

If you had no intent to make a stroke, correct. Your ball is not in play yet, so if you take a practice swing and knock your ball off the tee, no penalty. Where it gets more difficult is when you started to take a swing at the ball, but then decided mid-swing to abandon the swing, which changes your intent. Did you whiff or did you truly decide mid-swing to re-route and miss the ball? It becomes a judgement call.

 

[OldandStiff]

They will always "press the club", I've never seen a pro just set the club down. They move their hands down with purpose.

This nearly bit me once as a junior and I saw it get others, so I took to always setting it behind the ball with an open hand. Still do. It's a pretty simple thing that basically eliminates intent arguments.

 

[wadesworld]

But he stated there was no intent, how can intent be proven?

Intent doesn't play into it.

He either did or he didn't - move the ball or press with his club. It's up to the rules officials to decide.

 

[McLovin]

But he stated there was no intent, how can intent be proven?

proven? no idea. but it seemed pretty obvious to me. there's a visible difference between resting your club and exerting force. it looked to me like the grass was resisting and he was pushing the club farther down.

 

[Daluteh]

This nearly bit me once as a junior and I saw it get others, so I took to always setting it behind the ball with an open hand. Still do. It's a pretty simple thing that basically eliminates intent arguments.

I still remember one of the things you said to me a couple years back about changing lines or lie's intentionally with the club. Whether or not intent it is what it is - you either did something or you didn't do it, regardless of what you meant to do.

 

[mikeg_74]

I'll ask another question..

With the amount that ball moved each time he patted down the ball, do you REALLY think he couldn't see it happen, and recognize what he was doing? I've had lies like this before and could absolutely easily see what I was doing.. Fortunately never in tournament/competitive play so I can't say whether I'd do the right thing since it hasn't happened yet, but... I know what that kind of movement looks like.

..and yet another, you go up to your ball and clearly see it hanging in the rough, are you doing this same thing?

if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....it's a duck

Any golfer who has ever played this game (fun rounds with friends or competitively) absolutely knows when the balls moves as a result of your actions.