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I wonder how many of those approach shots are inside 125?
But regardless, not really anything to do with the message.
But regardless, not really anything to do with the message.
You vs Tour Players - Scrambling #Own125
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arydolphin
GTHC!
First of all, your long game doesn't need much improvement. That's a nice problem to have. ;-)
But the road map is basically increasing your accuracy, and distance would be a nice bonus as well. Most people aren't going to be able to increase distance by a large amount, so hitting the ball straighter is the way to go. For you, I'd imagine your scores would be better if you hit 2 more GIR in a round....heck, everyone's scores would be better.
I would love to take 2 15 handicappers and 1 only works on their long game and one only works on 125 yards and in for 3 months. I know what the outcome would be but would be a fascinating study.
cpljohnst
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Yes, I have them - GIR's are:
2015 - 40%
2014 - 42%
2013 - 38%
2012 - 40%
2011 - 30%
2010 - 28%
I think of the #Own125 campaign as really anything to do with a wedge, whether it's a scrambling shot, or taking advantage of a monster drive to really stick a shot close. I know it can be pretty disheartening for me if I get a drive to where I'm hitting something whose proper title ends with the word "wedge" and miss the green or still find myself needing a lot of work with my putter to make par. That to me is as important as scrambling is taking advantage of big shots off the tee and short par 4's.
BigTex
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Well except for the last time we played and you had 7 birdies.
The argument about what is more important is pretty much a futile one. I see both sides of the argument, but stats are really just a tool to help you evaluate your own strength and weaknesses. Regardless of how good your short game is, it can always get sharper. And when the inevitable bad ball striking round happens can soften the blow. What is interesting is my scores/handicap and iron shots improved this year by working on my short game. Lot of pitch shots and 3/4 swings translated into more consistent iron contact.
Well said. I can confidently say from playing golf mostly with bogey golfers at least the last 20 years that it would be fairly easy for them to take 5 or more strokes off their index by fixing some basic set up and club selections flaws with their putting and chipping. I've personally fixed a couple neighbors putting strokes who actually asked for help enough to have them knock 4-5 shots off their scores just by getting them to change their grip, ball position and helping them understand how important it is to not decelerate or let their left wrist break down. They were able to make these changes with less than an hour of practice. Fixing the long game takes dozens or hundreds of hours of practice which is not something your average 90's golfer who plays 15 rounds a year is willing to do .
VegasMav
Cigar Posse Member
Guess I have to work on my scrambling game if I want to be a pro...
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- #109
I would have thought it would be blatantly obvious, but it appear some disagree. *shrug*
Real world samples prove it time and time again.
Nice of you to jump to conclusions. FWIW, you've had a nice drop in your handicap this year, is it because your short game got much better or you're hitting more fairways and greens? I'm genuinely curious.
Also, for those wanting to see studies, this is from the book "Every Shot Counts" looking at amateurs, not pros.
It's not really a jump to conclusions. Every time something comes up about short game, people jump on it that it doesn't seem to really matter.
As for my personal scores this year there is no way I could have done it without my short game. You can ask anyone I've played with and I think just about all of them would say the same thing. My short game is well above the rest of my play. I don't hit many greens and I don't hit many fairways even, but I can get up and down for par from most places. It's a huge benefit for me and it makes me more confident with the rest of my game knowing I have that skill in my pocket. It allows me to never say die on any hole. To me, short game (including putting) is by far the most important part for amateurs.
arydolphin
GTHC!
Sounds like we have similar games. I'm barely a single digit handicap, and I just looked at my scrambling stats for the year, I'm at 27.1%, well over the number that was given in the video for the average 10 handicapper. Putting is my strong suit, and I feel like my ball-striking is the weakest part of my game. I guess I look at it this way: if my ball striking got better, I wouldn't have to lean on my short game as much. But the other way of looking at it is that if I don't really have the time to put into my game to make some big swing improvements, then putting my time into short game would probably help my scores more. Maybe I'm just stubborn, but I've been so disgusted at times over the past 2 years with how I've hit the ball tee-to-green that I've chosen to focus on improving my long game over my short game with my practice time. I guess I'm going against the conventional wisdom here.
BigTex
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I know for me my scores went down doing a lot of shots over the past year from inside 125 yards and really making the focus of my putting speed more so than line. Aside from the obvious getting better at those shots, it helps my game management being willing to just try and get up and down instead of taking on some types of trouble that lead to big scores. I am definitely a mid cap player, but my cap is down almost 2 strokes this year and trending down doing that.
I agree with you. the worst scores of mine this year (as has been the case for probably the last 10 years) is when I can't get off the tee. second worst is when I miss a ton of greens. after that, it's when my short game is off. my best scoring comes first when I'm hitting greens, then when my short game is working, and finally when I'm driving well. I will not break 90 if I can't get off the tee. I will not break 80 if I miss more than 9 greens. so FOR ME, long game is the most important. I've spent a massive amount of time and money this year trying to fix my short game woes, and have seen nothing come of it. I'm not going to abandon it, just relaying my own experience.
for someone as analytical and data-focused as Dave pelz I was surprised at the whole "driving is a 3, irons might a 5, putting has to be a 9." I figured he would have actual numbers. but I could certainly stand to own 125 better than I do.
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rallo
#FYF
This makes a ton of sense... during bad rounds my wedge is my most used club... could flub it from 100 yards then hope to put one close from off of the green. If you could consistently put one tight from 100 in... or at least chip it close
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I need to go to JB's short game shape up. I stink the most from 60 yards and in and an up and down from 125 is about as likely as seeing a unicorn on the course.
emart2173
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totally agree red with you. Lately I have falling into that and my short game/putting has suffered. I also see it with mid-caps all the time as well. At the range I see guys come put and all the have is driver, 3w, hybrid and a mid-long iron and hit 1-2 large buckets of balls and see no improvement in their games as they continue to do the same things and hit the same shots each time I see them.
i agree. Having seen you play this year your cap dropped quickly once your short game took off.
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It's almost comical to see some of the responses. I (and others) just argue (with research backing us) that short game isn't the most important aspect for most amateurs to improve their scores. It's not meant for anyone to get defensive. Short game is important and I'm not arguing that, or that everyone could improve their scores by working on their short game. If Pelz would not have haphazardly made up random ratings for the different types of shots, I wouldn't have commented on the issue. But he presented it in a manner to make you believe it's the truth, even when he is quoted as not actually beliving that.
I dont post here to derail ("effing quality" was it?), I just come here to present facts as documented by experts. It's easier to spread disinformation than it is to do your own research and find the truth. But the truth is like a lion in that you don't really have to defend it. Set it free and it defends itself.
I dont post here to derail ("effing quality" was it?), I just come here to present facts as documented by experts. It's easier to spread disinformation than it is to do your own research and find the truth. But the truth is like a lion in that you don't really have to defend it. Set it free and it defends itself.
Blazer
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You're exactly right, as usual.
Bogey golf to 12 handicap is a pretty easy fix.
IMO the reason golf instructors push the short game is because they're incapable (not all the instructors fault) of fixing their client's full swing. They take the easy way out.
Blazer
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100% spot on. If players were capable of fixing their swing there would be far fewer 30 yard shots (20% up & down).
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- #121
The only 'research' you have included is an article based on tour specific data... Additionally, if your posts didn't reek of snark, you may get a more casual response. Saying people's opinions and responses are 'comical' is a pretty junky way to discuss something on a forum -- Especially with only text to explain your tone.
Or, you could present some of those fancy stats and research for us to read. I'd certainly enjoy it. Would love to see every single case study I've seen first hand improve their handicap with short game refinement get debunked.
arydolphin
GTHC!
The article that he refers to talks about a book that was written, which has already been referenced in this thread, that has detailed data taken from many years of analysis of tour pros AND amateurs. That's where the data is coming from. But you seem to want to ignore that, which is your choice.
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- #123
No need to be rude to me. I am basing his comments on quotes from Rory about not worrying about a short game (as someone who hits a majority of the greens in a round). That is simply irrelevant opinion for an amateur. If he wanted to reference an actual useful amateur statistic or quote from the piece, I would gladly read it as well. I didn't ignore any of his comments in this thread and you know that.
That said, every sport has fancy stats. I see the same conversations about hockey and they tend to make some ridiculous claims in comparison to what is experienced first hand. That article probably doesn't consider appropriate tee selection, and how irrelevant the distance factor is when people tee it forward.
It takes a bit more critical thinking that reading an article like that to consider what the best course of action for an amateur golfer is. You can tout it as though it were the finite solution, but I'm all but certain it's nonsense, and I've got plenty of first hand samples from MANY handicap ranges to confirm my suspicions that improving the short game is the sure fire way to improve a handicap.
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Canadan - The responses that are comical are the ones like "thread derailed" or "effing quality". What exactly does that bring to the table?
And you are 100% right that a lack of tone through written text it's tough to discern. I've been to one THP event and I don't think anyone there thought I was "snarky". I actually had a blast with Danny Lee of UST, TexasHacker, Nihhthawk and others (even with my poor playing ability).
And as a high handicapper I've shot anywhere from 88 to 117 this year. My low rounds come when I'm staying in play and/or in good positions off the tee.
And you are 100% right that a lack of tone through written text it's tough to discern. I've been to one THP event and I don't think anyone there thought I was "snarky". I actually had a blast with Danny Lee of UST, TexasHacker, Nihhthawk and others (even with my poor playing ability).
And as a high handicapper I've shot anywhere from 88 to 117 this year. My low rounds come when I'm staying in play and/or in good positions off the tee.
arydolphin
GTHC!
Got it....your experience in watching golfers that you've played with trumps the research that people have done with thousands of amateur golfers. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one because our views on this are so far apart from one another.
But hey, Cleveland must be happy, they get the most active thread of the day out of this one.
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