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how much hype is in the forgiveness promise

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Art M

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My title may be inaccurate but.....I get the forgiveness of a hybrid versus a long iron but I am thinking only about irons. I get the forgiveness in a shot that may be hit a bit toward the toe. But i know about myself, my scoring suffers from hitting my irons fat or pulling them. No stick short of merlins wand is going to save me from those misses. How many strikes during a round is a game improvement iron going to save your shot and help you make par? My confusion lies in the claims that a mid to high capper is likely to struggle with a cb iron and should play a gi iron. For example such and such an iron is geared for a 6-15 handicap, etc. This thought has creeped into my head because, for instance I know my handi is high, but I gravitate more toward the look and feel of a bridgestone j15cb or srixon z745 than the xr, bertha, d200 or dpf. just a rant
 
QUite a bit for me based on my testing. I think people would be surprised how often they miss the balance point of an iron, even if by less than half an inch.
I think people should play what they want, but I also think you summed it up yourself. If the forgiveness is there in a hybrid, what makes that so? Hollow body construction, more mass, lower and deeper center of gravity and I could go on. The same holds true in every club. Whether or not one wants to play them or sees diminishing returns is up to them, but the technology or whatever someone wants to call it is there.
 
I definitely think they are much more forgiving than an iron, the tech in a hybrid is so good that it's almost impossible to not find some success based on needs. Personal preference keep them out of a lot of bags but I would suspect that we'll all have one in our bags eventually.
 
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This is a fun topic and one that is discussed often at our PNW THP get togethers. I like a little junk in the trunk of my irons but mainly for the added launch and bigger "sweetspot". If I snap my wrists shut and hit the ball with a closed face it doesn't matter what iron I'm using...that ball is going left left left.

There are a lot of other factors and technologies that I don't understand that might give a club a higher tendency to stay square, but I think that's very minimal.
 
I would say there is quite a bit of tech in today's equipment , which makes all categories more forgiving. Some are most forgiving then others, across the whole face even a inch would end up in play compared to equipment of yesterday.


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I get your point that certain hits would not be improved by more forgiving clubs.

What I think that misses is the likelihood that more forgiving clubs, ones that help you get the ball up more easily, could encourage you to take a better swing. Conversely, clubs that make it more difficult to elevate can influence your mind, and ultimately your swing, to try and elevate the ball - which translates to trying to hit up on the ball which leads to fat shots.

So, I'd suggest clubs that make it easier to strike the ball properly encourage one to do so. And that may be what makes them improve your game.
 
I think there is ton of forgiveness in hybrids compared to irons...then you start looking at the tour and see pros going with hybrids or GI and it will let you see that even the better players want the ease of use and forgiveness.
 
Art M said:
But i know about myself, my scoring suffers from hitting my irons fat or pulling them. No stick short of merlins wand is going to save me from those misses. How many strikes during a round is a game improvement iron going to save your shot and help you make par?
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No club is going to fix our swing flaws but technology can definitely help us with the results of those bad swings. I went from a club not dissimilar from those that catch your eye to Ping i25s (progressive set design where the club's center of gravity, bounce, size of sole and offset change through the set). I can objectively tell you my GIRs have increased substantially (@ doubled) and my scores have consistently decreased since the change. I do not believe my skill level has changed, just the effects of my bad swings. I don't think it's a coincidence; I attribute it to the forgiveness and playability of the clubs in my hands.
 
toe hits are always going to suffer, heel hits not quite as much. but where i think the most "help" is available for gi and sgi irons is vertical misses, particularly fat shots. i think it's the bounce and/or trailing/leading edge relief that helps the club glide through impact rather than digging. i'm pretty sure i read that my ping i25s have a good bit of bounce or some kind of sole relief that is designed to help fat shots, and i've definitely seen that in practice. turns out that configuration isn't my cup of tea and the main reason i'm moving away from these irons, but the design does work.

so yes, gi and sgi irons can act like merlin's wand for certain misses, not just small misses.
 
Last round I can count at least three pars made that could have been bogey or worse.

3rd hole. Slight heavy miss, slid into ball and high face contact. Made front of green and rolled to pin high. Par.


11th hole. Two shots on same hole. First was a thin hybrid that somehow stayed high enough to carry water on par 5 layup. Then, low face miss to elevated green with pw. Ball maintained height enough to reach front of green. Par. Would have been a double if I'd gone in water.

14th hole. In the rough, slight heavy contact. Again a little high face. Again front of green. Again par.



Not to mention out of all the other 'good' shots, I'm sure few were perfect center contact.

Difference between 84 and 88 or worse.
 
But, play what you want. Too often people try to use fault logic to justify illogical things.
 
There is but one sweet spot on a club and it is in pinpoint in side. Pros balls cover that sweet spot because they are great and consistent ball strikers. Most amateurs do not.

There's a great series of pictures that you can find on the internet that shows the impact radius mapped against the handicap. There's a huge difference even between scratch and 3-5 type handicap players in face dispersion. In short, none of us (myself included) hits the center nearly as much as we probably think.

I think those SGI designs can help with ball speed retention on misses off of that sweet spot. Bulge and roll can help "steer" the ball back a bit from a lateral miss. I think weight low and back can help get the ball up a bit better on a thin hit (which is the average amateur's vertical plane miss). Weight low and back can increase back spin which can reduce the impact of lateral spin. The dreaded offset can help with effective vertical center of gravity and thus launch angle.

I hate to say it, but put me in the school that says you should play as much GI as you can stand to look at. There's no reason not to. The game is hard enough as it is.

But hey, I suck and I play Altitudes. Maybe I've just accepted what I am? The more I play them though, the better they look to me.
 
Art M said:
My title may be inaccurate but.....I get the forgiveness of a hybrid versus a long iron but I am thinking only about irons. I get the forgiveness in a shot that may be hit a bit toward the toe. But i know about myself, my scoring suffers from hitting my irons fat or pulling them. No stick short of merlins wand is going to save me from those misses. How many strikes during a round is a game improvement iron going to save your shot and help you make par? My confusion lies in the claims that a mid to high capper is likely to struggle with a cb iron and should play a gi iron. For example such and such an iron is geared for a 6-15 handicap, etc. This thought has creeped into my head because, for instance I know my handi is high, but I gravitate more toward the look and feel of a bridgestone j15cb or srixon z745 than the xr, bertha, d200 or dpf. just a rant
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But isn't a CB iron technically a GI iron? At least at first introduced, wasn't that originally the purpose of the CB iron? To offer larger more forgiving sweat spot? So then GI irons would just sort of be more technically advanced versions. But anyway fwiw I do believe there are significant differences accordingly between irons that are of the more or less forgiving types. I know for a full swing if I miss hit my SW (which is part of my GI set) it is far more forgiving vs when I miss hit my LW which is a blade. Its probably why I struggle to use my LW for full swings and normally don't. Of course on the flip side of that its the best thing (for me) when I use it on very short touchy feely chippy stuff. Over all I do think hype is always built up greater than reality but with that said forgiving irons vs less forgiving ones do offer imo a significant ability to mask ones flaws. within reason of course.
So many times in these forums through the years its been occasionally mentioned that someone switched to a less forgiving iron set and only then after badly beating themselves up realized they made the mistake and went back. That says a lot for answering the question.

BTW the "geared for 6 - 15" part Imo should never be considered for lumping together as though a similar range like a one-size-all sock size lol. Imo a 6 and a 15 capper are worlds apart. I would even argue its quite the leap and bound from 16 going down to a 10, let alone a 6.
 
Short game and putting, that's forgiveness and saves pars, but I digress.

1) play the irons, that make you happy, 2) play irons that maximize your game - if they conflict refer to option 1.

I get what you're saying about the irons. As was mentioned in earlier posts, some shots are beyond saving, no matter the tech. However, it's the shots in between where the forgiveness kicks in, if it get you that extra 20 yards and you now have a wedge into a green as opposed to mid/short iron, I think that benefits you, because for me it's a lot easier to knock it close with a wedge than an iron (at least in theory)
 
I just got XR Pro irons after playing forged muscle/cavity backs since 1978 so a month ago my answer would have been different. I now know that GI irons offer a lot in the way of forgiveness over a forged CB. More importantly, the newer GI clubs launch higher and are 15 yards longer and much easier to hit straight and far on mishits. Now from 205 yards I'm hitting a 5 iron that is an inch shorter and launches higher than any hybrid or long iron I would have had to play in the past so it's that much easier to hit greens from that distance. I think a persimmon 3 wood vs. a modern 3 metal is a fair comparison to describe the forgiveness and distance improvement of a modern GI iron over a forged CB. On iron shots I miss the sweetspot about 50% of the time and my new irons hardly punish me at all - maybe 5 to 8 yards loss of distance on a thin shot but no loss on a shot towards the toe or heel. That is 9 approach shots each round that have a chance to be on the green rather than short or 15 feet closer to the pin. I've hit more iron shots inside of 15 feet the last 4 rounds with my mid and long irons than I have in a very, very long time.

Obviously for any golfer making swing improvements is still way more important for hitting quality shots that a different set of irons but I can honestly see these new irons shaving 2 strokes off my index this year and I'm just having more fun because the long irons make it stupid easy to reach par 5's in 2 shots.
 
tahoebum said:
I just got XR Pro irons after playing forged muscle/cavity backs since 1978 so a month ago my answer would have been different. I now know that GI irons offer a lot in the way of forgiveness over a forged CB. More importantly, the newer GI clubs launch higher and are 15 yards longer and much easier to hit straight and far on mishits. Now from 205 yards I'm hitting a 5 iron that is an inch shorter and launches higher than any hybrid or long iron I would have had to play in the past so it's much easier to hit greens from that distance. I think a persimmon 3 wood vs. a modern 3 metal is a fair comparison to describe the forgiveness improvement of a modern GI iron over a forged CB. On iron shots I miss the sweetspot about 50% of the time and my new irons hardly punish me at all - maybe 5 to 8 yards loss of distance on a thin shot but no loss on a shot towards the toe or heel. That is 9 approach shots each round that have a chance to be on the green rather than short or 15 feet closer to the pin. I've hit more iron shots inside of 15 feet the last 4 rounds than I have in a very, very long time. Obviously for any golfer making swing improvements is still way more important for hitting quality shots that a different set of irons but I honestly think these new irons will shave 2 strokes off my index this year and I'm just having more fun because the long irons make it so easy to reach par 5's in 2.
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I think people should read that a few times and then look at your index and then look at their index. My guess is that your misses are on the less severe side more often than not as well. 1 of 2 shots you hit as a scratch index aren't in the center of the face.

I think people in general overestimate how often they hit the center of the face, many times consfusing smaller misses with the center - meaning 1/4" to 1/2". Those smaller misses are virtually masked with a well designed perimeter weighted iron. Then you factor in that many misses (for the lesser skilled among us) are not going to be small and it becomes even more evident that there is a ton of value in a forgiving build.

The thing is, as shown by the irons you play (and the irons I play for that matter), is that you can have good looks and sleeker lines with forgiveness.
 
Hawk said:
I think people should read that a few times and then look at your index and then look at their index. My guess is that your misses are on the less severe side more often than not as well. 1 of 2 shots you hit as a scratch index aren't in the center of the face.

I think people in general overestimate how often they hit the center of the face, many times consfusing smaller misses with the center - meaning 1/4" to 1/2". Those smaller misses are virtually masked with a well designed perimeter weighted iron. Then you factor in that many misses (for the lesser skilled among us) are not going to be small and it becomes even more evident that there is a ton of value in a forgiving build.

The thing is, as shown by the irons you play (and the irons I play for that matter), is that you can have good looks and sleeker lines with forgiveness.
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Your point is right on. When I said 50% of the time I meant it and I'm an above average ball striker(and a below average putter)for my 0.7 index. Missing the sweetspot for all of us is just the reality most of the time.
 
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JB said:
QUite a bit for me based on my testing. I think people would be surprised how often they miss the balance point of an iron, even if by less than half an inch.
I think people should play what they want, but I also think you summed it up yourself. If the forgiveness is there in a hybrid, what makes that so? Hollow body construction, more mass, lower and deeper center of gravity and I could go on. The same holds true in every club. Whether or not one wants to play them or sees diminishing returns is up to them, but the technology or whatever someone wants to call it is there.
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I agree on all points. Clubs today are MUCH more forgiving than when I started playing in the early 70's. Whether you need all of the forgiveness is subjective. Only you will know. The choices today are endless. The human still has to swing them, but it is hard today to blame bad golf on the clubs, shafts or balls. We have it all today, plus we have the technology in fittings to look at your swing like never before.
 
Some others that have already commented have pretty much nailed it. Although no club out there will fix your shot on a push/pull or severe hook/slice, since that really has nothing to do with the club and everything to do with the swing path/contact...but even great golfers miss the center of the face, so as you put it as a mid/high handicapper, how often do you actually hit the sweet spot on your irons? GI irons can very much help you on hits that are slightly off the sweet spot and even towards the heel/toe nowadays. I've definitely noticed a huge improvement moving to RSi2's from forged Mizunos. A HUGE improvement. My ball speeds and distances are much more consistent and I'm not punished as much for the "center" hit that's really a couple centimeters off the true sweet spot. And that's on a club that still holds the profile of a lot of the player's CB irons out there.

I'd say most of my hits are "centered" on the face (not towards the toe or heel), but I wouldn't be shocked to learn I'm actually missing the true sweet spot 75% of the time if not more, and honestly I feel I'm a pretty decent iron striker. With my new irons, I'm definitely not punished 75% of the time, so something is working on them.
 
tahoebum said:
Your point is right on. When I said 50% of the time I meant it and I'm an above average ball striker for my index (and a below average putter). Missing the sweetspot for all of us is just the reality most of the time.
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To the bold part above I would ask. Why then for many players, soon as they get abit better at the game (and that of course is a relative term) but do they then feel the need to move into less forgiving irons? I know the obvious answer would probably be because they feel they want the feel and control of the less forgiving iron but I would ask in most cases are they kidding themselves or not? I think its fair to assume only a small percentage of players actually do get all that much better to the degree to truly warrant such a move vs the ones who switch only for ego and are perhaps really kidding themselves. Not calling anyone out here and I could care less what anyone wants to play but such things like this have come up before.
 
rollin said:
To the bold part above I would ask. Why then for many players, soon as they get abit better at the game (and that of course is a relative term) but do they then feel the need to move into less forgiving irons? I know the obvious answer would probably be because they feel they want the feel and control of the less forgiving iron but I would ask in most cases are they kidding themselves or not? I think its fair to assume only a small percentage of players actually do get all that much better to the degree to truly warrant such a move vs the ones who switch only for ego and are perhaps really kidding themselves. Not calling anyone out here and I could care less what anyone wants to play but such things like this have come up before.
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To quote myself when explaining it to JB years ago, "They make me feel better than I am."
 
This is something I am going to be looking at quite closely when I go for my iron fitting at the weekend - currently I play Ping i3 O-size (pre-2000) irons and although I have hit a few newer irons I have not been able to put them side by side to compare against my own

Going from irons as old as these, I am hoping to see a lot more forgiveness as obviously the technology has come along leaps and bounds

I am guessing that the newer the irons that people move from, you possibly wouldn't see quite as much of a benefit as moving from an older set like myself?
Regardless, I am looking forward to putting something new and shiny in my bag and enjoying the game even more if the clubs make it easier for me
 
All you need is some impact tape or foot spray and then go out to hit 10 shots to see that you can't hit that absolute pinpoint sweet spot all the time. Whatever variance in pattern you see gives you a pretty good idea of how much forgiveness you need.
 
Some of the things I've learned (some of which may be right, some which may be wrong):

- The sweet spot of an iron (or any club) is the size of a pin. Period. There's no such thing as a "bigger sweet spot"--you have one center of gravity, and it's a point. Same thing for a ball--there's a pin-sized center of the ball. If you match them up, you hit a perfect shot. Good luck with doing that consistently.

- "Forgiveness" in a club, what people call a bigger sweet spot, has to do with how much distance you lose based on how far off that pin-sized center you hit. Punishing clubs lose distance quickly the further off center you hit. Forgiving clubs don't--there's all kinds of tech to help you only lose a yard or two if you hit a quarter inch or half inch off center. You can do stuff to compensate more missing in one direction or another (lower COG, weighting to the heel/toe/both) and stuff you can do to make the whole face more forgiving (360 face cup anybody?). You can also compensate for varying swing speeds.

- Nothing can compensate for a swing fault, meaning making contact with the face open or closed, or with the club head moving in or out. You can't fix a push, pull, hook, or slice with club tech, you fix those with a swing coach. You fix mishits (i.e. not hitting the center of the ball with the center of the club face) with club tech.

- Confidence in your club is a thing. Some people have mental blocks about some kinds of clubs. Some people are scared of small club heads (even though they don't miss by much), some people can't stand big club heads. Everybody has a top line they'd prefer to look at. Some people are distracted by a big chunky iron with a sole sticking out behind the top line, some people get a confidence boost from that. If you're confident in your club, your swing gets looser and freer and you hit better. If you're scared of your club, you tense up and swing worse. The best possible thing is to look down at your club and think "I'm going to hit exactly the shot shape I want and land dead on my target because this club is practically cheating".
 
I actually disagree with quite a bit of the above.
 
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