I was a bit shocked at what a ranger said yesterday

Mulligan9111 · Jun 15, 2015

rollin said:
Correct imo, and not only did they expect us to fix it, but actually asked us to fix it. When you (as a ranger) ask (imply) to a group to push another, you are in a way imo asking them to fix a problem and that is what is wrong here. That poor decision is not thought through well at all. The potential problems that can come from this is too risky imo. His intent was not bad but he didn't realize (as I think some of you don't either) just how irresponsible this could end up being.

Besides that, both of these guys were talking to us only maybe 50 yards from the first tee and one was in a cart and the group in question was only a little up the fairway. I could have yelled to them from where we were. The ranger/s should have never suggested this to us and instead should have gone over to them and did their job. If they already (and the may have) just gone over to them, then they should have simply kept an eye on them through the first hole which can easily be done right from the starters booth without even leaving the spot we were in and (if needed) went out to them again. It was obviously a concern of theirs so between the two of them and a cart and the guy in the booth is what they should have and easily could have done.

The bottom line here is that one of authority (no matter what type or how much) over people can not ever imo pass along or suggest or imply any amount of that authority at all to the people in which they are in in charge of over seeing in the first place. That is something imo (even though many here don't agree) that has potential to be more serious than we would ever think. It sounds like (in this case) no big deal and perhaps even laughable to some of you, but imo Its very irresponsible and can lead to just about anything. It is their job and imo should only be their job.

So are you just mad that the rangers asked you to help them out with regards to pace of play?

And them telling you to "push the group in front of you" is not giving you authority over that group, it's telling you to keep up with them and let them know you are there. They specifically corrected themselves and said don't hit into them, I really don't see what the big deal is here.

rollin · Jun 15, 2015

haha "shocked that I'm shocked" lol
Are ya really shocked at my logic and thoughts?

you know they are often "outside the box" at times. lol

But I don't see how you don't see the importance of what was done.
I repeat that this was not about him asking us to keep pace. It was about asking us to pressure the group ahead.
(and funny thing, as I wrote "pressure" I misspelled the word and the computer put the word "pleasure" in their LOL but I caught it)

Anyway, asking us to push them is imo a number of things.
Its neglecting your own responsibility,
its placing it on another,
and also (in a way) is handing another a piece of your given authority and that part is the most irresponsible thing one can do. It is a potential for bad situation and I think is going too unnoticed. I think that's the part we don't agree on more than anything.

rollin · Jun 15, 2015

Mulligan9111 said:
So are you just mad that the rangers asked you to help them out with regards to pace of play?

And them telling you to "push the group in front of you" is not giving you authority over that group, it's telling you to keep up with them and let them know you are there. They specifically corrected themselves and said don't hit into them, I really don't see what the big deal is here.

Let me tell ya, they way the whole conversation took place sent a clear message for what they wanted. They wanted us to push the group ahead and that was it. It wasn't about us, it was all about pushing them. The wrong type of people would have easily taken this "authority" into their own hands. And no matter how we slice this imo this is similar like (in a way) giving another some authority. This is a very irresponsible and bad choice. It was careless and I believe had potential to be more serious than many of you think. I think that's a bigger deal than what many think.

JB · Jun 15, 2015

Wow. I gotta say, I am really surprised at that line of thinking. It is what it is, but someone being very clear at the get go and in the 2nd sentence saying "That does not mean hit into them" tells me that perhaps people are looking into it a bit too much.

THe entire job of a golfer's pace is to stay on track and keep up with the group in front of them. They were asking you to do the latter, with a poorly worded, but albeit accurate description that the group started off slow.

Its like someone took that and said [Raising fist to the sky] "Im going rogue, be damned all of you".

Daddio · Jun 15, 2015

They even asked if you all would do it as a favor and then gave you an out if this really bothered you by adding "if you don't mind". I don't think this was any big deal, just course employees trying to do whatever reasonable to keep things moving. They were behind already and likely had an idea it could get worse. Just poor wording (that they quickly corrected too).

Mulligan9111 · Jun 15, 2015

rollin said:
Let me tell ya, they way the whole conversation took place sent a clear message for what they wanted. They wanted us to push the group ahead and that was it. It wasn't about us, it was all about pushing them. The wrong type of people would have easily taken this "authority" into their own hands. And no matter how we slice this imo this is similar like (in a way) giving another some authority. This is a very irresponsible and bad choice. It was careless and I believe had potential to be more serious than many of you think. I think that's a bigger deal than what many think.

I think you are just looking for a bigger problem than there actually is/was. The only thing wrong about this situation was the way they worded it, which they seemed to have corrected very quickly during the conversation.

I mean to think that some people are going to take this as a "lets go hit into everybody as much as we can because the rangers told us to" is a bit extreme. I think that most would take it as many others posting on this topic took it "keep up with the group in front of you".

mpeterson · Jun 15, 2015

I get the impression here that the ranger here IS in a way trying to do their job, by showing what they expect keeping pace is - as soon as you're able to hit without having the ball roll up to the group in front, you're up. If it's a quiet day, the starter will wait until people are well clear so they don't hear the ball coming in 40-50 yards away, but on a tighter day, they tend to have people hit as soon as it's clear.

rollin · Jun 15, 2015

The part you guys are not getting (or just not agreeing with me on) is that this conversation had nothing at all to do with us keeping pace. They would have then simply asked us to make sure we keep up. This was every bit about nothing else except to do them a favor and push the group ahead.

What that favor is asking of us is imo is the same as asking us to do their job. Helping someone is not the problem at all. The problem is that the part of their job they are asking you to do is the part that has a given authority with it. One can not pas along even the smallest amount of given authority. When you do that you are setting yourself up for potential bad situations. Its not responsible.

Mulligan9111 · Jun 15, 2015

rollin said:
The part you guys are not getting (or just not agreeing with me on) is that this conversation had nothing at all to do with us keeping pace. They would have then simply asked us to make sure we keep up. This was every bit about nothing else except to do them a favor and push the group ahead.

What that favor is asking of us is imo is the same as asking us to do their job. Helping someone is not the problem at all. The problem is that the part of their job they are asking you to do is the part that has a given authority with it. One can not pas along even the smallest amount of given authority. When you do that you are setting yourself up for potential bad situations. Its not responsible.

What authority are they giving you?

rollin · Jun 15, 2015

Mulligan9111 said:
I think you are just looking for a bigger problem than there actually is/was. The only thing wrong about this situation was the way they worded it, which they seemed to have corrected very quickly during the conversation.

I mean to think that some people are going to take this as a "lets go hit into everybody as much as we can because the rangers told us to" is a bit extreme. I think that most would take it as many others posting on this topic took it "keep up with the group in front of you".

Again, this was not about "us" keeping pace.
Was all about pushing them.
People hit into groups ahead (due to pace) all the time. Happens a lot. And that's when they haven't even ever been told to push anyone. Even happens when they think its slow and it really not, even happens where they are mistaken and its not the fault of the group in front but is way up further. Just far too many bad situations and also misunderstanding etc.. Can you imagine giving such a person the slightest indication he now has even the smallest amount of authority to push?
It wouldn't even matter if the ranger said "push but don't hit them". Its a possible disaster waiting to happen. It has to only be the rangers job.

Mulligan9111 · Jun 15, 2015

rollin said:
Again, this was not about "us" keeping pace.
Was all about pushing them.
People hit into groups ahead (due to pace) all the time. Happens a lot. And that's when they haven't even ever been told to push anyone. Even happens when they think its slow and it really not, even happens where they are mistaken and its not the fault of the group in front but is way up further. Just far too many bad situations and also misunderstanding etc.. Can you imagine giving such a person the slightest indication he now has even the smallest amount of authority to push?
It wouldn't even matter if the ranger said "push but don't hit them". Its a possible disaster waiting to happen. It has to only be the rangers job.

So you feel that you have to be given the authority to push/keep up with the group in front of you?

And you can keep saying this was not about "you" keeping pace, but to me it sounds exactly like that's what this was about. For all you know, they could have mentioned something very similar to the group in front of you. It just sounds like a friendly reminder (although poorly worded) to keep up with the group in front of you.

I just don't get where you are coming up with this "vigilante justice" type of scenario. Just seems like a really extreme way of thinking about this.

mpeterson · Jun 15, 2015

Mulligan9111 said:
So you feel that you have to be given the authority to push/keep up with the group in front of you?

That was my thought as well - isn't "push the group without hitting into them" pretty much what you're supposed to do?

El Bandito · Jun 15, 2015

I am guessing the comment was light hearted. It's difficult to imagine that the group were behind time on the first hole.

rollin · Jun 15, 2015

Mulligan9111 said:
What authority are they giving you?

They did say or certainly clearly implied to us to push them. That in itself just gave us a little of his authority to then go ahead and do just that. Hit it close to them, send the message, etc....In fact one of his exact spoken words was "They'll get the message" meaning our job was to send a message. That is imo a given authority handed to us. His job is to send messages. Its his given authority and responsibility to do so. What he asked of us was wrong and irresponsible and in the wrong hands could have lead to big problems. Give that to the idiots who hit into people anyway and who have no idea what to do with or how to treat this new authority and who don't understand that they don't really have any. The whole thing is just a bit crazy and potential for too much misunderstanding and therefore the potential for too many unforeseen issues.

Mulligan9111 · Jun 15, 2015

rollin said:
They did say or certainly clearly implied to us to push them. That in itself just gave us a little of his authority to then go ahead and do just that. Hit it close to them, send the message, etc....In fact one of his exact spoken words was "They'll get the message" meaning our job was to send a message. That is imo a given authority handed to us. His job is to send messages. Its his given authority and responsibility to do so. What he asked of us was wrong and irresponsible and in the wrong hands could have lead to big problems. Give that to the idiots who hit into people anyway and who have no idea what to do with or how to treat this new authority and who don't understand that they don't really have any. The whole thing is just a bit crazy and potential for too much misunderstanding and therefore the potential for too many unforeseen issues.

It's clear we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. To me the only authority they have given you, is the authority to play ready golf and keep up the pace. You obviously see things WAY different. Agree to disagree I guess.

rollin · Jun 15, 2015

Mulligan9111 said:
So you feel that you have to be given the authority to push/keep up with the group in front of you?

And you can keep saying this was not about "you" keeping pace, but to me it sounds exactly like that's what this was about. For all you know, they could have mentioned something very similar to the group in front of you. It just sounds like a friendly reminder (although poorly worded) to keep up with the group in front of you.

I just don't get where you are coming up with this "vigilante justice" type of scenario. Just seems like a really extreme way of thinking about this.

El Bandito said:
I am guessing the comment was light hearted. It's difficult to imagine that the group were behind time on the first hole.

They were just (that minute) conversing among each other about the group and had concern that group was slow and were looking at them as the group was in the fairway. This lead them to asking us to push them. This was not (with due respect , how many times do I say this) was not to imply for us to keep pace.
They were discussing that group and then asked us to push them. It wasnt said (based on what was said and the way it was said) in such a way as for us to please keep pace. It was mentioned that we push the group. That is very different from receiving a message about us keeping pace. My 4some felt the same way. They too (as I mentioned it on tee 2) gathered things the very same as I did. They too had the same general feeling "how could they tell us to push them" "isn't that what they're suppose to do" . this is what the other guys were also saying. So it wasn't just me misunderstanding things. They asked us to do that part of their job. That part is a part of authority and we were all a tad taken back by it. we all found it very strange that we were asked this.

El Bandito · Jun 15, 2015

Most of my rounds are on courses without marshals or Rangers. When I do go to a venue that has them, I have, once or twice been told to "push 'em on". I have understood this to mean that I shouldn't compound a pace problem by backing off, but rather demonstrate to the group ahead that they need to speed up (obviously without endangering anyone)

I have always ways thought that this was a Rangers way of letting ME know that I am on the clock but in such a way as to avoid any implication that I might be slow.

Maybe I am over thinking it

DawgDaddy · Jun 15, 2015

I don't see it as a big deal, just a poor choice of wording. I do usually push people in front of me but if folks start pushing me I will begin to go ahead and hit closer to the group ahead. Nothing within 50 yards of them but close enough they know that I am there.

Cjgolf25 · Jun 15, 2015

DawgDaddy said:
I don't see it as a big deal, just a poor choice of wording. I do usually push people in front of me but if folks start pushing me I will begin to go ahead and hit closer to the group ahead. Nothing within 50 yards of them but close enough they know that I am there.

Yeah it definitely sounds more like a poor choice of words rather than ill gotten intention.

katman · Jun 15, 2015

I guess I'll take the contrarian approach! I think it is pure crap for a starter to tell a foursome to push the foursome in front of them on the FIRST hole. If the foursome ahead does not play to pace and assuming that a ranger asks them to speed up, maybe then it would be OK for a course employee to ask them to "push em," as long as by push em they did not mean hit with any danger to the others. But on the first hole??? Seems like they let the stress of poor schedule planning get to them.

And if I put on a lawyer's hat, I like it even less. Yes, they corrected their language but none of us were there. If I owned the course or was the manager, I would not want my starter in a deposition having to admit that s/he said, "Do us a favor and hit up on em." A deposition that might occur because someone got hit in the head with a Pro-V. Sure, apparently that was corrected, but you can't tell the meaning from an internet post.

If they said, "Hit up on em, I mean, don't hit up on em but you know what I mean..." and then winked, it means something completely different. As a manager, I might have thanked that employee for their help and kindly asked them to leave. The bottom line is that the OP and at least two of his foursome thought the comment was odd and open to interpretation. Do you want the starter saying what s/he said to the OP to the guy behind YOU that throws his clubs and blames his slice on having to wait for you to clear the drop zone?

I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but on a golf course, I don't want mole hills either.

mancest · Jun 15, 2015

Couple comments: the guy was doing his job, but in a very piss poor way. He should have reminded you that your place on the course is immediately behind the group in front of you. That way later when he comes by that group, he can point that they are out of position in relation to the group in front of and behind them to hopefully nudge them along.

For legal (and not to mention ethical reasons) he never should have used the term "hit into".

Personally, I would have responded, "we will be on their tail, but make sure YOU keep them moving."

Hox30 · Jun 15, 2015

Poor choice of words for sure. He did correct himself though. I honestly don't see a problem with this other than his choice of words. As long as you're not flying the ball to them and it rolls up ten or so yards behind them it's ok. Especially if they were playing slow, but it doesn't sound like they were.

rollin · Jun 15, 2015

katman said:
I guess I'll take the contrarian approach! I think it is pure crap for a starter to tell a foursome to push the foursome in front of them on the FIRST hole. If the foursome ahead does not play to pace and assuming that a ranger asks them to speed up, maybe then it would be OK for a course employee to ask them to "push em," as long as by push em they did not mean hit with any danger to the others. But on the first hole??? Seems like they let the stress of poor schedule planning get to them.

And if I put on a lawyer's hat, I like it even less. Yes, they corrected their language but none of us were there. If I owned the course or was the manager, I would not want my starter in a deposition having to admit that s/he said, "Do us a favor and hit up on em." A deposition that might occur because someone got hit in the head with a Pro-V. Sure, apparently that was corrected, but you can't tell the meaning from an internet post.

If they said, "Hit up on em, I mean, don't hit up on em but you know what I mean..." and then winked, it means something completely different. As a manager, I might have thanked that employee for their help and kindly asked them to leave. The bottom line is that the OP and at least two of his foursome thought the comment was odd and open to interpretation. Do you want the starter saying what s/he said to the OP to the guy behind YOU that throws his clubs and blames his slice on having to wait for you to clear the drop zone?

I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but on a golf course, I don't want mole hills either.

Finally someone has some understanding of my thoughts with this. They should have simply done their job and if they had to, should have done it again. People keep saying "poor choice of words." But I assure you it was not just wrong words said by mistake. It was poor choice of action. His intentions were good but his actions were very irresponsible.

jim54 · Jun 15, 2015

I will also take the other side here in that maybe the 1st group had 1st tee issues and was slow getting out of the gates, if you push up on them and they are folks with attitude you may find that by pushing up on them they actually slow down.

I have seen this with some old Florida folks (most likely from the north somewhere) that do not want to be pushed and feel it is their right to do whatever they want at their pace. SO that is where it is the job of the Ranger to talk with them and get them to pick it not other Golfers that will be ignored or worst. Things can get pretty heated when trying to push on the wrong people and the OP may also be referring to that, None of us want to have to fight it out over 15 minutes we are paying for.

If for instance I have had a bad drive and spent a few minutes looking for a ball and someone hits near me or starts yelling to hurry up the 1st thought is to flip off said person and things can go downhill from there. I avoid confrontation at all costs normally, but do not tolerate abuse for any reason. That is why a Ranger should come up and tell me to pick it up, clean and simple.

Golf 'N Gator · Jun 15, 2015

rollin said:
So I show up in the morning as a single and timing worked out great. While waiting I hit a warm-up bucket, chip and putt a little and get called to the starter . I meet the other players (another single and a twosome) at the starters booth and as we exchange names and handshakes we start heading to hole #1.
Two rangers (I don't think we really have rangers per say as all the workers seem to flip flop duties) but anyway the two are talking about the group on #1 and making reference that they were still in the fairway. One of them grabs our attention and says -

"hey fellas, do us a favor? and hit up on them"
Continues on - "I mean don't hit into them, but ya know just keep it close to push them and let them know your there"

the second guy says - "yea, we're a little behind, they'll get the message"
the first guy says "yea, they'll get the message, so if ya don't mind, thanks fellas, have a good round".

This whole thing didn't quite (at that moment) settle in to my head yet because (although meant for all 4 of us) the comments were spoken more to the 2some and not me specifically and I also was getting my GPS started up as I was walking. Anyway, I was a bit shocked about what was said but I was concerned about getting all things ready and the first shot etc... So we finish #1 get to the 2nd tee and I now really start thinking more about what was just said to us and honestly was a bit in disbelief about it.

So I bring it up to the other guys and explain -
That in all my years I've never seen and I cant believe a ranger would ask a group to "almost" hit into another group.
First of all, pushing a group is his job, not ours.

The guys were also quite shocked about it too. Could you imagine he had given that suggestion to a couple or so idiots?

I'm actually kind of at a loss for words and dumbfounded for the stupidity of such a thing. How ridiculous and bad and so wrong for a ranger to actually tell a group heading to the first tee to basically hit into the tails of the group ahead.

This wasn't meant as a way of getting us to make sure we keep pace. This was said with the intention for us to actually push the group ahead.

If it was an issue then they should have headed out to that group (and perhaps they did already and the group wasn't responding) but then they should just do it again if they had to. I mean whatever, but how the heck can you possibly give directions to a foursome to "almost" hit into the group ahead.

In the end the round played at 4:20 and we did wait a couple mins on many occasions but over all wasn't too bad. But regardless of that I am still very shocked. That is about one of the worst things I can recall a ranger doing. Empowering a 4some to do this? Not only is that "his" job but that is just asking for disaster. The bad scenarios that can play out from such a suggestion? I mean really?

I'm not saying this guy had bad intentions. Its not like he was a bad guy or anything but he just didn't think at all about what the heck he was suggesting and for the hundred ways its so very wrong. And what's even more mindboggling is that the second guy goes along with the whole darn thing also oblivious to how wrong it is.