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Playing the Classic Blades (PRE 1990) vs Modern Clubs

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Johnny Hack

Johnny Hack

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As some of you know if you see my posts in "What Golf Stuff did you buy today" I am somewhat of a "Classic Club Ho" and have been for many years.
While I have been employed in one form or another in the Golf industry for over 30 years and have seen the progression of club design and watched head sizes and shapes change, the material that heads and shafts are made out of, as well as golf ball design and materials (which has meant more consistancy and distance) has also been a big change as well. I am sure that it has benefited the average Golfer.

That being said I have decided that with the start of 2013 I will be comparing how much the "Old Technology" affects my handicap by gaming both "The Classics" (persimmon and pre 1990 forged blades) and my modern clubs, and tracking by using the USGA handicap formula (score-rating x 133 / slope) and keeping 2 handicaps (myself) for comparison. I will keep a running log to show the difference as it progresses.

I thought that it would be an interesting comparrison for all those out there that wonder how much the new technology really helps non-professional golfers.

My Modern set is shown in my signature

My "Classic" set will consist of the following:
John Ofer Persimmon Driver - stiff steel shaft
Wilson Staff Tour Persimmon 4 wood - stiff steel shaft
2-PW Dunlop Maxfli Australian Blades (vintage late 70's/early 80's) - stiff steel shafts
Sand Wedge - Original Cleveland 588 (first year model)
Putter - Wilson 8813 1970's vintage (belonged to one of my best friends who passed away)
My ball will be Wilson Duo

I am doing this for my own enjoyment/entertainment as well as for any who are interested in playing classics but may be worried about how it will affect their game. I for one dont think it will be to radical of a diffence other than the distance difference in Classic vs Modern I feel it will be fairly close with all said and done.
 
That's pretty cool, Johnny. I think at your skill level, the difference might be a little more tempered than someone with a higher index just due to forgiveness.
 
Interesting idea! Been playing for close to 30 years as well and I'm constantly amazed yardage wise I am hitting them as long (if not longer) than when I was in my teens. My first set (when I was 11) were a set of sawed-off-hand-me-down Bob Toski graphite (a novel concept) irons and persimmon woods from my mom. Be interested in following your thread and do keep us posted often.
 
Hawk said:
That's pretty cool, Johnny. I think at your skill level, the difference might be a little more tempered than someone with a higher index just due to forgiveness.
Click to expand...

While I agree that it may affect lower handicap players less than higher, I think that over the past 15 years the average players handicap has only improved by about 2 strokes due to modern equipment and ball.

The average handicap of all golfers -- men, women and children -- has decreased consistently for the past 15 years. The average handicap today is two strokes better than it was in the early 1990s, according to research provided to Golf Digest by the USGA's Golf Handicap & Information Network (GHIN).
Prior to that time everyone was using Wooden Woods and Forged Irons so I dont think it really changed much before. And bear in mind that most golfers (close to 80%), dont keep handicaps and are probably in the 15-25 handicap range.


Stats from the USGA. About 5 million golfers have a GHIN handicap which is only around 20% of all golfers.
 
Wow, that's cool. Looking forward to seeing how this works out for you!
 
First 2 rounds with my Classic Bags in my effort to compare Classics to Modern
I discount the first of the two since my Persimmon Driver broke on 2nd hole and I had to run back to the car and grab my 983K Driver.

11/6/12 Cypresswood Golf Club - Traditions Course - White Tees - 6162 Yards - Rating 69.9 - Slope 125
39/36=75 using formula: Score - Rating x 133 / Slope = Index this round 5.43
Shot with Titleist 983K (Macgregor Tourney Tommy Armour persimmon driver broke on 2nd tee)
Macgregor Bob Toski Mighty Mite Persimmon 4 Wood
Macgregor Jack Nicklaus 20th Anniversary Muirfield 2-SW
Cleveland Corey Pavin Centennial US Open Winner Putter

11/9/12 Cypresswood Golf Club - Traditions Course - White Tees - 6162 Yards - Rating 69.9 - Slope 125
38/38=76 using the formula: Score - Rating x 133 / Slope = Index this round 6.49
Shot with John Ofer Persimmon Driver
Wilson Staff Persimmon 4 Wood
Dunlop Maxfli Australian Blade 2-PW
Cleveland (Original) 588 SW
Wilson 8813 (Belonged to one of my best friends who passed away)
 
Great idea! Will be following this one for sure!
 
Do those 30+ year old shafts go dead?

Kevin
 
I am just seeing this thread after starting a similar one. My guess is the mods will merge.
 
This will be interesting to follow.

You mentioned that indexes have only decreased 2 points in the last 15 years. I wonder though if courses today are tougher than courses in the early '70s. While modern courses are certainly longer, they also seem to have more forced carries. I'd be curious to see what the "average" slope was for courses in that time frame to the "average" slope now. I've heard some golf personalities say that modern golf courses are designed too tough for the average player.
 
cpljohnst said:
This will be interesting to follow.

You mentioned that indexes have only decreased 2 points in the last 15 years. I wonder though if courses today are tougher than courses in the early '70s. While modern courses are certainly longer, they also seem to have more forced carries. I'd be curious to see what the "average" slope was for courses in that time frame to the "average" slope now. I've heard some golf personalities say that modern golf courses are designed too tough for the average player.
Click to expand...

Compared to the courses that I grew up playing, I would say that course design has definetly changed compared to the courses that were designed lets say 30 or more years ago as evidenced by the constant reworking (lenghtening and green redesigns ) that we see happening to the "Old Standard Greats" which the PGA Tour still competes on, but I feel that is due to the increased length of the modern professional golfer, as well as the modern equipment and golf ball. No one wants to tune into a televised tournament and watch the (mass of) pros of today shooting ridiculously low numbers, thus rendering those great designs of yesterday completely obsolete.

Another reason that design has changed is also for aesthetic reasons. Any of you that grew up on "Old Local Muni's" know that they were built with the then "masses" in mind, and even though the prices have increased somewhat on those Grand Old Muni's, the cost of designing, building, and maintaining the newer corses of the last 30 or less years has skyrocketed, and to help jusify the increased green fees, the look as well as the overall perceived value has required fancier facilities, such as Clubhouses, Cart Barns, Course Signage, Scorecards, Restraunts, Course Maintenance Equipment, and many other amenities that were just not required on the Muni's of yesterdays.

I feel that without the new "Super High Moment of Inertia Tee Bombers" (Drivers) that are being mass produced today, and the vastly improved putting surfaces as compared to say 30 years ago, that the majority of recreational golfers would really not be lowering their handicaps as much as the USGA has reported because they would not be hitting as many fairways as they do now. Also, I grew up playing on Poa Anna putting surfaces which greatly changed throughout the days play. With all the new grasses that are available, course conditions today remain more the same from morning till evening, other than the early morning dew.

As far as the "Modern Courses" being too difficult for the average player, I personally feel that far too many of todays "Recreational Player" feel an entitlement to "See The Whole Course Because I payed My Money to Play" and (most of their egos) are causing them to write checks that their playing ability cant cash!!!!

I am a 57 year old man now (7500 yard Tournament Tees are almost always out of the question for me) and while I play to a low single digit handicap, I like to play from the Men Championship Tees (Blue) some of the time, I also play from the Mens Regular Tees (White) more than 60% of my rounds, as I am secure in my "Manhood" and feel that I prove more playing from the proper tees for my driving distance ability (consistent 250-260 yards) and also increase the enjoyment of the time I spend out on the course.
 
I believe you have the formula wrong, I was under the impression it is (score-rating x 113(not 133)/slope x .96). I could be wrong but when I check my differential the math has always worked out.
I will watch this thread because me and a friend used to always bring out our circa 1960's 70's clubs and play a retro round in the fall but we haven't done this in a few years. What surprised me the most was after a few holes to adjust for the club distance differential I seemed to play just as well.
 
Interested to see your thoughts on this, man. I for one think old style blades are very tough sticks to game (could be all mental?)...but it looks like you have the game to make them manageable.
 
Must agree here with you as when I was playing 25 years ago if you played a course with a slope rating 125 it was a considered a tough course. It seems to me that fairways were wider back then also, of course I was younger and more athletic and it seemed to me I hit the driver longer back then. Could be selective memory though as I'm not a senior player yet. I seem to have gotten less out of modern technology (especially the driver) than most have. Again this may be selective memory also.
 
majBC said:
I believe you have the formula wrong, I was under the impression it is (score-rating x 113(not 133)/slope x .96). I could be wrong but when I check my differential the math has always worked out.
I will watch this thread because me and a friend used to always bring out our circa 1960's 70's clubs and play a retro round in the fall but we haven't done this in a few years. What surprised me the most was after a few holes to adjust for the club distance differential I seemed to play just as well.
Click to expand...
score-ratingx113/slope

You are correct almost see step 5
The steps for calculating a Course Handicap are:
  1. Convert gross scores to Adjusted Gross Scores
  2. Calculate Handicap Differential for each score
  3. Select lowest Handicap Differentials
  4. Average lowest Handicap Differentials
  5. Multiply the average Handicap Differential by 96%
  6. Arrive at Handicap Index by truncating - deleting - the number(s) to the right of tenths
  7. Calculate Course Handicap
Step 1: Convert Original Gross Scores to Adjusted Gross Scores


To arrive at an Adjusted Gross Score, you use the USGA's Equitable Stroke Control (ESC). ESC is used to downwardly adjust individual hole scores for handicapping purposes in order to create handicaps that better represent a golfer's playing ability. ESC imposes a maximum number of strokes that can be entered for any given hole. This maximum is based on the golfer's Course Handicap and is obtained from the table shown below.

Course Handicap
Maximum Score
9 or less
double bogey
10 through 19
7
20 through 29
8
30 through 39
9
40 and above
10

An example of a downward adjustment may be helpful. Let's say that a player with a Course Handicap of 18 scores a nine on one of the holes. His nine would be downwardly adjusted to a seven because players with handicaps in the 10 to 19 range are allowed a maximum score of seven on any given hole. Once you make adjustments, if necessary, to all eighteen holes, the sum of these 18 holes is the Adjusted Gross Score.

Step 2: Calculate Handicap Differentials for Each Score


The second step in computing a Handicap Index is to compute a Handicap Differential for each score that is to be considered in the Handicap Index calculation. The Handicap Differential is computed using the following formula:

Handicap Differential = (Adjusted Gross Score - Course Rating) X 113 ÷ Slope Rating

(The Course Rating is what the USGA deems a scratch golfer would score on a course under normal playing conditions. A Slope Rating of 113 is for a course of standard difficulty according to the USGA.)

Round the Handicap Differential to the nearest tenth (i.e., 17.25=17.3, 11.34=11.3, etc.).


Step 3: Select Best, or Lowest, Handicap Differentials


The third step in calculating your Handicap Index is to select the lowest Handicap Differentials. The following table is used when selecting the best, or lowest, Handicap Differentials. If more than 20 scores have been entered, the 10 best differentials of the 20 most recent scores are used for the calculation.

Number of Handicap
Differentials Available
Differentials Used
5 or 6
Lowest 1
7 or 8
Lowest 2
9 or 10
Lowest 3
11 or 12
Lowest 4
13 or 14
Lowest 5
15 or 16
Lowest 6
17
Lowest 7
18
Lowest 8
19
Lowest 9
20
Lowest 10


The USGA does not calculate a handicap until five scores have been recorded.


Step 4: Calculate the Average of the Lowest Handicap Differentials


If there are 10 Handicap Differentials (scores) available, calculate the average for the lowest, or best, 3 Handicap Differentials. If there are 15 Handicap Differentials (scores) available, calculate the average for the lowest, or best, 6 Handicap Differentials. Once a player has at least 20 scores, always use the 10 best, or lowest, Handicap Differentials from the most recent 20 scores.
Step 5: Multiply Average of Handicap Differentials by 0.96 or 96%


The fifth step in calculating the Handicap Index is to compute the net Handicap Differential average. For the USGA the percentage by which the Handicap Differential averages are multiplied is 96%.
Step 6: Truncate, or Delete, Numbers to the Right of Tenths


Step six in computing the Handicap Index, is to delete the digits after the tenths for the number derived in Step 5. Do NOT round off to the nearest tenths place. As established by the USGA, the default maximum Handicap Index on an 18-hole course is 36.4 for males and 40.4 for females. On a nine-hole course the default maximum Handicap Index is 18.2 for males and 20.2 for females. The maximum ceiling can be increased.

Example of a Handicap Index Calculation

The following is an example of how the Handicap Index is calculated using the USGA System. This example assumes only 14 scores have been posted for this golfer.

Sum of the lowest five Handicap Differentials: 68.7
Average of lowest Handicap Differentials (68.7 divided by 5): 13.74
Handicap Differential Average multiplied by 96%: 13.1904
Truncate (delete) digits after tenths place: 13.1
Handicap Index: 13.1
Step 7: Calculate Course Handicap


The final step is to calculate a Course Handicap. A Course Handicap is the number of strokes a player receives on each particular course. Determine a course handicap by multiplying the Handicap Index by the Slope Rating (from the course and tee you choose) and dividing by 113 (standard difficulty rating). Round the result to the nearest whole number.

Course Handicap = Index x (Slope Rating of Tee on Course / 113)

Example of a Course Handicap Calculation

The following assumes an index of 12.5 and a Home course slope of 120.
Course Handicap
= 12.5 x 120 / 113
= 1500 / 113
= 13.27
= 13


For 9-hole handicaps, you can follow this formula replacing the 18-hole Course Rating with a 9-hole Course Rating. The Slope is the same for 18 and 9 hole calculations.

You've now seen how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together for calculating a Handicap Index and Course Handicap. You've picked up or refreshed your memory on some golf handicap terminology. You've noted that none of the calculations is magical, but simple math. If you are interested in more information, you can always read through the current USGA Handicap Manual on their website (USGA.org).
 
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Johnny Hack said:
First 2 rounds with my Classic Bags in my effort to compare Classics to Modern
I discount the first of the two since my Persimmon Driver broke on 2nd hole and I had to run back to the car and grab my 983K Driver.

11/6/12 Cypresswood Golf Club - Traditions Course - White Tees - 6162 Yards - Rating 69.9 - Slope 125
39/36=75 using formula: Score - Rating x 133 / Slope = Index this round 5.43
Shot with Titleist 983K (Macgregor Tourney Tommy Armour persimmon driver broke on 2nd tee)
Macgregor Bob Toski Mighty Mite Persimmon 4 Wood
Macgregor Jack Nicklaus 20th Anniversary Muirfield 2-SW
Cleveland Corey Pavin Centennial US Open Winner Putter

11/9/12 Cypresswood Golf Club - Traditions Course - White Tees - 6162 Yards - Rating 69.9 - Slope 125
38/38=76 using the formula: Score - Rating x 133 / Slope = Index this round 6.49
Shot with John Ofer Persimmon Driver
Wilson Staff Persimmon 4 Wood
Dunlop Maxfli Australian Blade 2-PW
Cleveland (Original) 588 SW
Wilson 8813 (Belonged to one of my best friends who passed away)
Click to expand...

corrected would be
11/6/12 score - rating x 113 / slope
75 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 4.61
11/9/12 score - rating x 113 / slope
76 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.51

I will adjust x .96 after 5 rounds
 
Thanks for catching my error guys! I appreciate it!
 
I will watch this thread because me and a friend used to always bring out our circa 1960's 70's clubs and play a retro round in the fall but we haven't done this in a few years. What surprised me the most was after a few holes to adjust for the club distance differential I seemed to play just as well.[/QUOTE]

majBC,

I agree with you as I havent seen that big a difference in scores, just tee ball length is about 10-15 yards shorter with persimmon for me. Iron distance difference for me seems to be one club shorter with classics vs modern, but then the lofts are a club weaker and the lengths are about a half inch shorter. My Mizuno MP52 PW and my Classics 9 iron lofts and lengths are identical.
 
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All rounds played at Cypresswood Golf Club Traditions Course - Spring, Texas Biggest difference is driving distances Persimmon vs 983k Titleist Driver. Persimmon for me is appearing to be about 15-20 yards shorter with Persimmon Driver. 235-240 for persimmon vs 250-265 for 983k. Classics Blades are 1 club shorter for me than Modern Forged Mizzy MP52

Classics last 2 scores and corresponding Index vs Modern last score and corresponding Index:

11/6/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6162 yards
75 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 4.61

11/9/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6162 yards
76 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.51


Yardage diff between white and blue tees on par 4's and 5's combined is 303 yards
on par 3's is 71 yards with one of the par 3's sharing white and blue tee at the same distance
11/13/12 Modern score - rating x113 / slope Blue tees 6638 yards
78 - 72.0 x 113 / 135 = 5.02
 
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Cypresswood Golf Club Traditions Course

11/6/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6162 yards
75 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 4.61


11/9/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6162 yards
76 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.51


11/13/12 Modern score - rating x113 / slope Blue tees 6638 yards
78 - 72.0 x 113 / 135 = 5.02


Cypresswood Golf Club Cypress Course

11/16/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6168 yards
77 - 70.3 x 113 / 120 = 6.31
 
Let's take score out of the equation a little bit, though it's obviously important.

What are your observations on the equipment itself? Ball flight, forgiveness, playability, etc. Would love to hear a run-down, especially with the driver.
 
Alright Hawk, here it is:

Persimmon Driver vs 983k Titleist Driver, when struck solid and "on the screws" my persimmon driver on average is about 10-15 yards shorter than my 983k, I am of average length to a little long, 250-265 range with Titleist, and 235-250 range with Persimmon. Flight is about the same as I tend to be a high ball hitter. On mishits is where the big difference is, comparative sweet spots are quarter size on persimmon vs side by side 50 cent pieces on the Titleist, and moment of inertia loss is far greater on Persimmon vs Titleist, though for me center of face strike is not too much of an issue.

Classic irons (Dunlop Australian Blades or MacGregor Jack Nicklaus 20th Anniversary Muirfields) for me are about 1 to 1 1/2 clubs shorter than my Mizzy MP52's, but since both are forged, even though the Mizzy's do have somewhat of a cavity on the mid and long irons. Trajectory and Spin (stopping ability) is about the same and I have noticed no real difference other than distance.
 
That's pretty interesting stuff. It actually sounds really fun. I put some old things in the bag from time to time for the hell of it. People like to give me old clubs as gifts for some reason.
 
This is the replacment I just picked up for my Macgregor Tourney Tommy Armour that broke on last month
20thpersimmon.jpg
20thpersimmon2.jpg
20thpersimmon1.jpg
 
That's a beauty.
 
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