Private Clubs vs Public Courses - Is Exclusivity Good?

[Hawk]

I didn't really join the club I did because of the conditions, though the course itself was part of the decsion I guess. There are other public places in good to great shape in our area. I joined because I wanted to be able to play and practice at my convenience without having the constraints that public golf can impose for somebody that plays by himself a lot. It's not so the feeling of excluding others for a feeling of superiority as it was exlcuding people so I could play when I wanted to. Obviously I understood there were going to be contraints to that and I'd have to play with other members and wait my turn during certain peak times.

Honestly, I felt like I was sold a bill of goods towards the end. The tagline that they used was that I 'could play when I wanted to". In reality, I often couldn't play when I wanted to, whether it was a non-member outing, club sponsored tournies, college tournies, leagues, special member-sponsored events, etc. There were times when 50% of days I typically played during the month were taken my one of these things.


The point about getting what you paid for is a good one I think. This is a lower cost club for our area and I learned my lesson that it's not really what I was looking for.

 

[Callawaygolfpro]

There appears to be a theme here, if I can be so bold to say it. Private club membership is okay provided that they don't need help with revenue. If they need help with revenue they should not be private. Again, in my experience, there are only a handful of courses in the US that is currently being run in the black across the board (Private or Public).

In the KC market I would say that we are over-saturated with courses when you take in to account the number of people actually playing the game on a regular basis. I suppose that's another topic for another thread.

 

[wadesworld]

You can bet that if I ponied up $30,000 to be a member of a course, not to mention the monthly dues, I certainly wouldn't want them giving out open tee times or hosting more than a rare non-member outing.

With that said, there's a difficult situation that often arises. My boss is a member of a nice club 45 minutes away from me. He enjoys it when I play with him, and naturally he wants to play at his course since he pays all those dues. However, the course doesn't like him having the same guest out more than 3 times in a year. This policy is to prevent people who live close by avoiding joining by just continually playing with their friends who are members. It's difficult for me though. I'm NOT ever going to join that course. It's way too far away (and way too expensive). My boss has talked to them and explained the situation, and they're generally pretty good about looking the other way. However, it is annoying always wondering whether this round is going to be the round where they say "No."

 

[Wake]

You can bet that if I ponied up $30,000 to be a member of a course, not to mention the monthly dues, I certainly wouldn't want them giving out open tee times or hosting more than a rare non-member outing.

With that said, there's a difficult situation that often arises. My boss is a member of a nice club 45 minutes away from me. He enjoys it when I play with him, and naturally he wants to play at his course since he pays all those dues. However, the course doesn't like him having the same guest out more than 3 times in a year. This policy is to prevent people who live close by avoiding joining by just continually playing with their friends who are members. It's difficult for me though. I'm NOT ever going to join that course. It's way too far away (and way too expensive). My boss has talked to them and explained the situation, and they're generally pretty good about looking the other way. However, it is annoying always wondering whether this round is going to be the round where they say "No."

That is somewhat of a pickle. I completely understand their stance on this, as you pointed out. Are the guest fees rather low, seems like they could work it out to have a higher guest fee after a certain amount of times.

If nothing else I have a nice wig I can send you, you could probably borrow a skirt and blouse from your wife and play with him as Mrs. Wadesworld.

 

[Outlaw]

There appears to be a theme here, if I can be so bold to say it. Private club membership is okay provided that they don't need help with revenue. If they need help with revenue they should not be private. Again, in my experience, there are only a handful of courses in the US that is currently being run in the black across the board (Private or Public).

In the KC market I would say that we are over-saturated with courses when you take in to account the number of people actually playing the game on a regular basis. I suppose that's another topic for another thread.

There are more than 20 private clubs in southeast Michigan alone that are doing very well, so I'm not sure where this statistic is from, but I think it's far from the truth. Here in Michigan, the courses are packed from early May through October, and you better call a week ahead if you want to tee off before noon. Your situation in KC sounds rough for course owners, but I do not think that situation is representitive throughout the country.

 

[tequila4kapp]

I've seen what Hawk describes and think it is wrong.

A friend belongs to a very nice country club in So Cal that is managed by a particular company and this drives the members insane. About a year ago I started inquiring about CC's in my area. A club in my area is managed by that same company and their website made it known that non-member events occur there, too. It turned out joining a CC just wasn't feasible for our budget. But if it was, that club would have been eliminated from consideration for this factor. (Coincidentally I heard an advertisement for that club on the sport radio station just yesterday running a promo that they would give 3 months dues away with new memberships).

Having said that, I really don't have a problem with intermittent individual's paying to play private courses as long as it doesn't interfere with member's privileges or the courses' overall condition.

 

[Mr. Satchmo]

I'm lucky, the public and semi private courses here are fantastic and cheap, and the snobby private course in town isn't that great


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[manlai]

People pay good money to belong to private clubs so that they could play without the logjam of public courses. I don't like it when clubs exploit "public days" especially on major holidays. In truth, those are the days you really pay for. I can get the feeling of exclusivity anywhere on a random Tuesday afternoon, but what I require from any membership is the same exclusivity on July 4th or Saturday of the Masters when everyone is amped up about golf. I still belong to a club near my mom's. They good about being unobtrusive with their events. Even if they have something on a rare holiday, it's always done by 1. The club charges me for guests (the club comps me now and again), but my play is of course included in dues. I thought everyone did this so that the friends of members thing isn't exploited.

I always wondered this about Augusta. Aside from the status, it sounds like the absolute WORST club to belong to. You're obviously paying a crap ton to be a member. They have an insane set of rules. The Masters is awesome but it absolutely destroys the courses with all the trucks and parking and foot traffic in addition to the play. I know all 3 courses at Medinah looked like a bomb dropped on it after the Ryder Cup, I can only imagine what Augusta looks like after the Masters. They black out a lot of times when members can't pay. It seems like they charge a member a lot of money to NOT allow them to play. Of course, a majority of those members don't actually pay for their own memberships so I guess it's not skin off their noses.

 

[Wake]

People pay good money to belong to private clubs so that they could play without the logjam of public courses. I don't like it when clubs exploit "public days" especially on major holidays. In truth, those are the days you really pay for. I can get the feeling of exclusivity anywhere on a random Tuesday afternoon, but what I require from any membership is the same exclusivity on July 4th or Saturday of the Masters when everyone is amped up about golf. I still belong to a club near my mom's. They good about being unobtrusive with their events. Even if they have something on a rare holiday, it's always done by 1. The club charges me for guests (the club comps me now and again), but my play is of course included in dues. I thought everyone did this so that the friends of members thing isn't exploited.

I always wondered this about Augusta. Aside from the status, it sounds like the absolute WORST club to belong to. You're obviously paying a crap ton to be a member. They have an insane set of rules. They black out a lot of times when members can't pay. It seems like they charge a member a lot of money to NOT allow them to play. Of course, a majority of those members don't actually pay for their own memberships so I guess it's not skin off their noses.

Augusta is actually relatively affordable, the Masters brings in the majority of the clubs revenue.

Do they blackout more than other clubs that have a big tourney?

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[manlai]

Augusta is actually relatively affordable, the Masters brings in the majority of the clubs revenue.

Do they blackout more than other clubs that have a big tourney?

I don't understand why, but I often hear that Augusta blacks out a lot of time periods for some reason or other. The tournament prep and subsequent repair takes forever of course. As for the costs, I always assumed that they had a spending requirement for their members - like owning an AMEX black card. There are fees and then you have to spend like $300k a month on the card.

 

[RoundersRob]

Augusta is actually relatively affordable, the Masters brings in the majority of the clubs revenue.

Do they blackout more than other clubs that have a big tourney?

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There are entire months when Augusta isn't even open. Being a member at Augusta has nothing to do with how often you can play there.

Cypress has a very simple model. Divide the annual maintenance budget by the number of members and send them the bill.

 

[dhjkelly]

It's merely a sign of the times we live in. There are not to many courses here in Ireland but no matter what you can still get a tee time even on weekends. Lahinch Golf Links with a weekend tee time green fee of €135 ($160 roughly) will still gladly take your money.

I firmly believe any course should accept green fees especially if they wanna stay in business

 

[RoundersRob]

I don't understand the reasons, but I often hear that Augusta blacks out a lot of time periods for some reason or other. As for the costs, I always assumed that they had a spending requirement for their members - like owning an AMEX black card. There are fees and then you have to spend like $300k a month on the card.

One of the private clubs here in Silicon Valley costs about $125k to join. Then you pay $600 a month in "dues" and you are required to spend another $900 every six months on 'food and stuff'. If you don't spend $900, they just bill you for the difference of what you didn't spend. It's a beautiful golf course and there's a waiting list to join. Fortunately one of the VPs here is a member so I can play with him from time to time.

 

[Wake]

There are entire months when Augusta isn't even open. Being a member at Augusta has nothing to do with how often you can play there.

Cypress has a very simple model. Divide the annual maintenance budget by the number of members and send them the bill.

Im willing to bet Augusta is quite a but cheaper than Cypress.

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[Badger_Golfer]

With private courses, you get much less of the riff-raff that you get on public courses. That and because they charge more and get less traffic, private courses are generally in better shape and are more enjoyable to play.
Not to mention you also get the social aspect of a country club that you simply dont get with a muni. If a person can afford it, I see no reason to not go private.

 

[MWard]

There are entire months when Augusta isn't even open. Being a member at Augusta has nothing to do with how often you can play there.

Cypress has a very simple model. Divide the annual maintenance budget by the number of members and send them the bill.

It's a "winter" course. They close in May from what I've heard and then open again in November or December.

I'd love to know what their daily traffic is during their open months. I'd be surprised if it was more than 10 people, minus any special groups they've invited (golf teams etc)

 

[manlai]

Cypress has a very simple model. Divide the annual maintenance budget by the number of members and send them the bill.

I wonder how many times members attack each other with their putters every time they see someone drag their spikes on the greens?

One of the private clubs here in Silicon Valley costs about $125k to join. Then you pay $600 a month in "dues" and you are required to spend another $900 every six months on 'food and stuff'. If you don't spend $900, they just bill you for the difference of what you didn't spend.

Yea that's my point. I hazard to guess that Augusta's would be quite a bit higher than $900 a month.

 

[Wake]

I wonder how many times members attack each other with their putters every time they see someone drag their spikes on the greens?



Yea that's my point. I hazard to guess that Augusta's would be quite a bit higher than $900 a month.

Estimated at around 10k a year, which while expensive for me, its still rather cheap compared to other clubs of similar stature.

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[amsmith61]

Personally if people are willing to pay to belong to a private course, there should be some exclusivity that goes along with it. Sure, members should be able to bring guests, but I think that is where it should stop. Now if a course wanted to have a day to increase membership and allow potential members to play the course - I think that is a great idea. But I think people paying for to belong to that private course should alloted that exclusivity. Personally not my bag of tea, but good for them if they can do it.

Around here in Rochester, NY there are a ton of public golf courses, more than we probably need. I actually have 6 or 7 within of 10 mile span of me. A lot of them are just as well kept and are very reasonable to play.

 

[jhstew1]

Couple thoughts...

As to the public course not being "respected" by players, my thought is that is partly because some people just don't know any better, they don't know to look for a ball mark or replace/repair a divot, they are playing there because either they don't have the funds to join a private club or are new to the game & yes you will get a % of people that just ignore it with the theory "i payed to play here let the people I payed do it" I believe or hope that the people that know the game & play often do try to take care of the course.

Private courses/Outside events yes they can be very annoying especially if they are not publicized and you show up to play & find out you can't, but if done correctly they can be a valuable tool to attract new members and/or allow people the chance to play at the private club who otherwise may never get that chance.

As for private Clubs being "Self-Sustaining" I think they all could be but it depends on the type of private club, ownership. membership structure & how its run.

 

[Golf 'N Gator]

Sure why not. If there is enough of a market to keep the club open, go for it.

I agree. Nothing wrong with either choice.

 

[Callawaygolfpro]

Couple thoughts...

As to the public course not being "respected" by players, my thought is that is partly because some people just don't know any better, they don't know to look for a ball mark or replace/repair a divot, they are playing there because either they don't have the funds to join a private club or are new to the game & yes you will get a % of people that just ignore it with the theory "i payed to play here let the people I payed do it" I believe or hope that the people that know the game & play often do try to take care of the course.

Private courses/Outside events yes they can be very annoying especially if they are not publicized and you show up to play & find out you can't, but if done correctly they can be a valuable tool to attract new members and/or allow people the chance to play at the private club who otherwise may never get that chance.

As for private Clubs being "Self-Sustaining" I think they all could be but it depends on the type of private club, ownership. membership structure & how its run.

You sound like you used to work in the golf industry...

 

[RoundersRob]

When I played at Valderrama last fall I was surprised to learn that they only let a maximum of 6-10 foursomes on that course each day. We tee'd off at 12:15pm and we were the 7th foursome and last group of the day. That place has the same model as Cypress where they just bill the members for the annual maintenance costs but they also pull in a good amount from the one or two major tournaments that they occasionally host. I have never played a more beautiful or well manicured golf course and probably never will.

 

[tequila4kapp]

When I played at Valderrama last fall I was surprised to learn that they only let a maximum of 6-10 foursomes on that course each day. We tee'd off at 12:15pm and we were the 7th foursome and last group of the day. That place has the same model as Cypress where they just bill the members for the annual maintenance costs but they also pull in a good amount from the one or two major tournaments that they occasionally host. I have never played a more beautiful or well manicured golf course and probably never will.

Sure, the course was nice but what about pace of play?

 

[RoundersRob]

Sure, the course was nice but what about pace of play?

Given that they have a handicap limit to play there, it was pretty quick. The caddies help a LOT with pace of play as well.