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some people just dont get it.

Tough call. Yes, the desired outcome is being right behind the group in front, but if you're not slowing anyone down, no foul. If you were being pressed, then yeah. Time to pick it up.
But just falling behind a group doesn't mean you're slow. Maybe they're just really fast.

You know the course and what's normal. As far as the guy going through the whole routine, I know a few folks who have to do it. It's how they play and if they skip a step and mess up a shot, they will take FOREVER after that. From your account, he never actually said he thought it was you slowing things up. You could just be borrowing trouble that didn't exist. He may not have felt any sense of urgency because he thinks that's a normal pace and nobody was held up behind you. Any looks he gave might have been "Geez, if he'd slow down a touch and stick to a routine he'd play pretty well".
 
rollin said:
He wouldnt place his ball on the green till only his turn to putt. Wouldnt pick up 2 foot putts. Would always pick up and remark his ball no matter what.
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For me, the most time I spend is probably on greens, and on 30 yard pitch shots. I actually understand not placing the ball if you are right next to the cup, or if you're going to have to place it near somebody's line. That would be a distraction to the other putters. But one would think you could stand back, pick your line, take some practice strokes in the background, so that when it's your turn, you can place the ball and putt. And on 3 foot putts, it should only take about 5 seconds to place the ball, stand up and hit it.

Maybe you should have warned him, put him on the clock, and then assessed penalties against him.

~Rock
 
Damaikis said:
I don't think that guy really did anything wrong. Sounds to me like he was just playing golf. I don't pick up putts, like to do my routine every time, and I would laser stuff if I had a laser. Sorry he took too long for you, but he shouldn't have to speed up and enjoy his round any less just because you want to play faster. Until a ranger comes around and says hurry up or we're kicking you off, I don't think he did anything wrong.
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I didnt necessarily want to rush the round and it wasnt he took too long for me. My senses can certainly feel that we were cauaing the pace to slow regardless of the actual time. If the grouop ahead was playing a 3nad hlf hour round i wouldnt care and if no one waiting on us from behind I also wouldnt care. I just wanted to keep pace based on two facts. The group ahead was getting way too far ahaed and the grouip behind was also waiting with all groups all a stroke behind from behind them. We were the only group within sight that had such a huge gap between us and the next and it was a biggie. This caused me to feel the urgency.

I've always stated in other posts that i dont mind a 4and half round. To be exact it was just under 4:40. I'd much rather it be me waiting on others than be in the group causing the waiting. I'm not comfy being behind two holes while group behind is waiting on us. If that nmeans i have to pick up short putts than thats waht I'll do. I'm not to dictate you need to do that too but i would think at least cutting down on routines when in that situation is what we should do at the time just for enough to catch up a bit. Shortening things up and playing quicker for couple holes is probably all it would take to make up enough ground as to not cause any waiting.
 
One thing I have noticed in recent years is that foursomes are more reluctant than they used to be to let groups play through. When I am in this type of situation, I rarely will say a word. That said, if a group crawls up our hind end, I will be the first to recommend that they play through. I had one guy last week who was as slow as molasses and was adamant that we not let the group behind us play through. I finally got frustrated and waived them up on a par 5 when all three of my group were looking for balls in the woods...

I tend not to rock the boat too much, but at our course, a slow group is at the 4hr mark. We normally pace out at around 3:30-3:45 on a normal weekend. I will just focus on my game, let them play slower and wave folks through as needed.
 
Lefty78 said:
On weekends at most courses the standard is to keep up with the group in front of you. NOT staying ahead of the group behind you. We do all the things you mentioned that the slow guys did, play it down, putt it out, measure, repair ball marks, rake bunkers, etc. in four hours or less--walking. It is just a matter of moving at a good pace and being ready to hit when it's your turn. You are correct to be concerned but shouldn't let their lack of ability to keep up ruin your day.

Being a good golfer doesn't mean slow. The fastest foursome I play with on weekends are two single digit hcs, two 10-12 range hcs and we play in 3.5 or less if no one is ahead of us. It's fun, we enjoy it, we usually get in a rhythm and play well, then have more time in the bar waiting on the other groups to finish. The standard at our club is to finish in four hours or less on weekends. Different courses would have different standards, we do not have any long distances from greens to the next tees as some courses in housing areas would have.
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So what happens if my group is on a four hour pace and the group in front is on a 3.5 hour pace? Should we hurry and make our round less enjoyable to try and keep up with them?
 
McRock said:
For me, the most time I spend is probably on greens, and on 30 yard pitch shots. I actually understand not placing the ball if you are right next to the cup, or if you're going to have to place it near somebody's line. That would be a distraction to the other putters. But one would think you could stand back, pick your line, take some practice strokes in the background, so that when it's your turn, you can place the ball and putt. And on 3 foot putts, it should only take about 5 seconds to place the ball, stand up and hit it.

Maybe you should have warned him, put him on the clock, and then assessed penalties against him.

~Rock
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hahaha.. The point is just to do some things that you can to pick up the pace and not cause any delay at least for enough of the times till ya catch up some. It doesnt take too much to be able to do that.
 
Kobey said:
Rollin, I think we are becoming so scared of slow play nowadays that we start to rush ourselves. I noticed that most of your concerns weren't because of how long it was taking you to get through the round, but how far behind the people ahead you were getting. Not everybody plays at the same pace, so as long as you were making decent time, I think you should have just gone with it. It sounds like you were playing tag out there instead of enjoying a round of golf.

I think it's Fourputt that has in his signature that "Your position on the course is directly behind the people in front of you, not directly in front of the people behind you". I agree with that to an extent, but not as a hard and fast rule. I'm not going to make myself miserable trying to keep up with people that are a lot faster than I am as long as I'm keeping a normal pace.

I don't know if there will ever be a solution until every course has clocks and timers to make sure no one is playing too slow. Even then, what happens to the rules? If you are allowed to look for a ball for five minutes, then go back to retee according to the rules (if you didn't realize your ball was lost and didn't hit a provisional), how would that work if you only had a certain amount of time alotted for each hole?

I don't think the slow play issue is so much the time it take for a round, it's that we hate to wait. I can spend all day on the course and as long as I keep moving steadily, I'm happy. But as soon as I get to a spot where I have to wait a few minutes for someone else, I immediately get frustrated. People say it ruins their rhythm and stuff, but I believe it's only because of the boredom, like sitting in a traffic jam at rush hour. Even if you were just going to go home after the round, sit in the recliner and watch TV, it feels like a waste of time to get held up on the course.
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Kobey, thats great point. and i do agree we are made to feel that its unacceptable just by i guess what we can call pier pressure. I dont want to run through my golf at all. But this outside pressure of pace that we all discuss forever and is always dictated unfiortunately make me always to be aware that i dont cause it and to be conscious of it.
 
rollin said:
I didnt necessarily want to rush the round and it wasnt he took too long for me. My senses can certainly feel that we were cauaing the pace to slow regardless of the actual time. If the grouop ahead was playing a 3nad hlf hour round i wouldnt care and if no one waiting on us from behind I also wouldnt care. I just wanted to keep pace based on two facts. The group ahead was getting way too far ahaed and the grouip behind was also waiting with all groups all a stroke behind from behind them. We were the only group within sight that had such a huge gap between us and the next and it was a biggie. This caused me to feel the urgency.

I've always stated in other posts that i dont mind a 4and half round. To be exact it was just under 4:40. I'd much rather it be me waiting on others than be in the group causing the waiting. I'm not comfy being behind two holes while group behind is waiting on us. If that nmeans i have to pick up short putts than thats waht I'll do. I'm not to dictate you need to do that too but i would think at least cutting down on routines when in that situation is what we should do at the time just for enough to catch up a bit. Shortening things up and playing quicker for couple holes is probably all it would take to make up enough ground as to not cause any waiting.
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Being in the group that is causing things to back up makes me anxious too. Actually, being in the middle of the backup and knowing that people are stacking up behind me - even if my group isn't the cause - makes me anxious. I was playing as a single a few weekends ago, and by the fifth hole the backup was two groups deep at the tee box. I was usually hitting my tee shots before the group behind me made it to the tee box, but on one slower hole when the group in front of me had a pair of bad tee shots, I felt bad about the group behind me waiting.
 
Lefty78 said:
On weekends at most courses the standard is to keep up with the group in front of you. NOT staying ahead of the group behind you. We do all the things you mentioned that the slow guys did, play it down, putt it out, measure, repair ball marks, rake bunkers, etc. in four hours or less--walking. It is just a matter of moving at a good pace and being ready to hit when it's your turn. You are correct to be concerned but shouldn't let their lack of ability to keep up ruin your day.

Being a good golfer doesn't mean slow. The fastest foursome I play with on weekends are two single digit hcs, two 10-12 range hcs and we play in 3.5 or less if no one is ahead of us. It's fun, we enjoy it, we usually get in a rhythm and play well, then have more time in the bar waiting on the other groups to finish. The standard at our club is to finish in four hours or less on weekends. Different courses would have different standards, we do not have any long distances from greens to the next tees as some courses in housing areas would have.
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Agreed has nothing to with being good. That was my point and as you say its all about how you move along regardless of talent. But alot of times i've just seen better players refusing to acknowledge that they can be slow at everything and automatically blame the poorer player because thats what the misguided logic would have one believe. A good player can be just as guilty of causing delays as bad players. It happens all the time.
 
I understand your frustration rollin, really do. By your write-up you said that the other slower players were better golfers. I would assume that the better golfers were a bit longer down the fairway off the tee. Many times I'm sure they were waiting a shot or 2 from your self or the others before they were up. As fast as you said you were playing it still causes a delay for them to get to their ball. Now, add in their preshot routine and now you have a backup. I'm sure this happens on the green as well depending on who's chipping, long putting, etc. Totally not an excuse but just another reason you guys were maybe behind a touch. A 4.5 hour round on a weekend isn't terrible.

Were these better players members or locals that played the course a lot? That also causes delays when they haven't played the course as much but everyone else around them have so know what to hit when they get to their ball.

Anyways, frustrating to say the least but it's a part of golf right now. Next time use it as a mental game practice and find ways to not let it distract you or put you in a bad mood?
 
bigdaddy said:
One thing I have noticed in recent years is that foursomes are more reluctant than they used to be to let groups play through. When I am in this type of situation, I rarely will say a word. That said, if a group crawls up our hind end, I will be the first to recommend that they play through. I had one guy last week who was as slow as molasses and was adamant that we not let the group behind us play through. I finally got frustrated and waived them up on a par 5 when all three of my group were looking for balls in the woods...

I tend not to rock the boat too much, but at our course, a slow group is at the 4hr mark. We normally pace out at around 3:30-3:45 on a normal weekend. I will just focus on my game, let them play slower and wave folks through as needed.
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The problem with play through is this. if the next few groups are all with a stroke of each other than if you let one play through you now have the same sitation with the next one. And goen on from there. Yes would be nice if no one behind the group behind you but doesnt work any other way. Simply put ya just need to pspeed it up for a hole or two.
 
Nate said:
I understand your frustration rollin, really do. By your write-up you said that the other slower players were better golfers. I would assume that the better golfers were a bit longer down the fairway off the tee. Many times I'm sure they were waiting a shot or 2 from your self or the others before they were up. As fast as you said you were playing it still causes a delay for them to get to their ball. Now, add in their preshot routine and now you have a backup. I'm sure this happens on the green as well depending on who's chipping, long putting, etc. Totally not an excuse but just another reason you guys were maybe behind a touch. A 4.5 hour round on a weekend isn't terrible.

Were these better players members or locals that played the course a lot? That also causes delays when they haven't played the course as much but everyone else around them have so know what to hit when they get to their ball.

Anyways, frustrating to say the least but it's a part of golf right now. Next time use it as a mental game practice and find ways to not let it distract you or put you in a bad mood?
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That's a good point. I wonder how much hitting distance has to do with speed in a foursome? If everybody is about the same distance, they are already near their ball while others are hitting and have had time to plan their shot. If they are sitting 50 yards back from their ball while I hit, they have to wait, then go to theirs and start their prep.
 
Kobey said:
That's a good point. I wonder how much hitting distance has to do with speed in a foursome? If everybody is about the same distance, they are already near their ball while others are hitting and have had time to plan their shot. If they are sitting 50 yards back from their ball while I hit, they have to wait, then go to theirs and start their prep.
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It's what's great about golf, that players from all different handicaps can play a round with one another. But at the same time there are draw backs or things that the group has to be aware of to keep up. I've played with guys that really just were not that good and probably needed to be on the range than the golf course. Issue was that it would take 2-3 shots to get to my 1st shot. Well, by then a group was on the tee and guess who started to feel the pressure of hitting fast so that the group behind wasn't waiting? Me! Perception is reality. Again, not saying that was the case in rollin's case but just something that goes into the equation sometimes.
 
While 4:40 isn't a terrible time for a weekend, it is definitely off pace. Something needed to be done, however I don't think him changing his preshot routine is the answer. But all party's in the group did need to make sure they were playing ready golf, and eliminating excess time where they could.

And Kobey asked if a group playing in 4 hours should speed up if a 3:30 group was behind them. Absolutely not, but if the course is clear in front of them there is no reason you can't let that group go ahead of you.
 
Nate said:
It's what's great about golf, that players from all different handicaps can play a round with one another. But at the same time there are draw backs or things that the group has to be aware of to keep up. I've played with guys that really just were not that good and probably needed to be on the range than the golf course. Issue was that it would take 2-3 shots to get to my 1st shot. Well, by then a group was on the tee and guess who started to feel the pressure of hitting fast so that the group behind wasn't waiting? Me! Perception is reality. Again, not saying that was the case in rollin's case but just something that goes into the equation sometimes.
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The other thing to think about is, was the perception of him being slow being skewed by him having to wait on the other players in the group to play their shots? I know you said he would wait to put his ball down before he would putt, but the act of putting the ball on the green is a matter of 5 seconds and not something that I would get frustrated by. Did he at least appear to have already made his read on the putt before he would put his ball down?

There is a difference between being a fast golfer and being a golfer who just hits really fast.
 
Nate has a good point. Longer more accurate players can't play ready golf at times because they can't stand in front of you to hit. Especially when the golfers who aren't the "better" ones can hit the ball in any direction without warning. They need to be back with you because behind is the only safe place.
 
Kobey said:
So what happens if my group is on a four hour pace and the group in front is on a 3.5 hour pace? Should we hurry and make our round less enjoyable to try and keep up with them?
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If you are playing at a reasonable pace then no you should not be expected to race to catch the others up, but if you are looking like 5 hours then yes you should get your finger out and speed up.

However, no matter who you are and how good or bad you are, if you are holding folks up the best option is to call the group behind through. That way you do not have to race like Michael Jordan to get away from them.

bigdaddy said:
I had one guy last week who was as slow as molasses and was adamant that we not let the group behind us play through. .
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Well BD, this guy needed a swift kick up the butt for not wanting to call them through. I can assure you that I would not tolerate that attitude as it is simply not in the spirit of the game.
 
Nate said:
I understand your frustration rollin, really do. By your write-up you said that the other slower players were better golfers. I would assume that the better golfers were a bit longer down the fairway off the tee. Many times I'm sure they were waiting a shot or 2 from your self or the others before they were up. As fast as you said you were playing it still causes a delay for them to get to their ball. Now, add in their preshot routine and now you have a backup. I'm sure this happens on the green as well depending on who's chipping, long putting, etc. Totally not an excuse but just another reason you guys were maybe behind a touch. A 4.5 hour round on a weekend isn't terrible.
QUOTE]

Kobey said:
That's a good point. I wonder how much hitting distance has to do with speed in a foursome? If everybody is about the same distance, they are already near their ball while others are hitting and have had time to plan their shot. If they are sitting 50 yards back from their ball while I hit, they have to wait, then go to theirs and start their prep.
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Nate said:
It's what's great about golf, that players from all different handicaps can play a round with one another. But at the same time there are draw backs or things that the group has to be aware of to keep up. I've played with guys that really just were not that good and probably needed to be on the range than the golf course. Issue was that it would take 2-3 shots to get to my 1st shot. Well, by then a group was on the tee and guess who started to feel the pressure of hitting fast so that the group behind wasn't waiting? Me! Perception is reality. Again, not saying that was the case in rollin's case but just something that goes into the equation sometimes.
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Good point and certainly understand how poor golf can be slower but if one does whats necessary you can more than make for it. Some things i'll do when not htting well for few holes or something in a row - walking to my ball quickly as possible ahead of the others. Shorten up my preshot. Sacrifice trying a more difficult shot buy just hitting something out and up the fairway quickly. Tell the others to go ahead if on the other side not in danger. Dont look long at all for a ball. Putting more quickly, picking up my short putts, This is all it takes to keep up with the others while golfing very badly. I could be sacrificing a ball ot two, and strokes, and I'll be rushing, I'm not (at that point0 shooting a PB anyway so my score no longer matters to me at that point. But thats all in the price i have to pay for not golfing well enough.

If i'm ever that bad where i am causing delay then i'll pick up if i have to and let the others play out with out me playing the rest of that hole so i dont hold them up and so we dont hold up people behind us. Thats not ofetn at all and very rare but again a price i will have to pay and be willing to make so i dont ruin thier golf and cause delay for those behind me. As said i've shot 100 and over and have done it without picking up mid hole or picking up putts and have still done it in less than 4 hours. That may sem impossible but its how you move and what you do about it. It sucks and can be triresome but thats ok. its what i need to do when things are like that for me so i dont ruin it for others.
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If I could play a 4:30 every time I played and not have to worry about keeping others from playing at their pace, I would do it. I enjoy taking a reasonable amount of time preparing for a shot - getting yardage and lining up a shot without rushing is not unreasonable and should never be expected on a golf course in the interest of "pace of play".

Idle chatter with your playing partners, excessive waffling over club selection, waiting for the wind to die down (for more than 5 seconds), taking excessive practice swings, spending more than 2-3 minutes searching for a lost ball (unless there is no risk of causing a delay for other groups, then 5 minutes is acceptable, or if you're alone, then all bets are off!). On the green, these are my thoughts. Unless it's for an eagle or you're ending a personal best round, then you don't need to walk the entire circumference of the green to get a good idea of what you think the line is. Spending more than 20 seconds lining up most putts from the time you step on the green (not counting time walking around the line of other players, repairing ball marks, removing the pin etc) should be enough.
 
Also, whatever happened that if you were playing slow, you just let the group behind you play through? Why is that never a solution to slow play?

~Rock
 
rollin said:
The problem with play through is this. if the next few groups are all with a stroke of each other than if you let one play through you now have the same sitation with the next one. And goes on from there. Yes would be nice if no one behind the group behind you but doesnt work any other way. Simply put ya just need to speed it up for a hole or two.
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this ^^^^^^ can be a problem too.

McRock said:
Also, whatever happened that if you were playing slow, you just let the group behind you play through? Why is that never a solution to slow play?

~Rock
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Kobey said:
So what happens if my group is on a four hour pace and the group in front is on a 3.5 hour pace? Should we hurry and make our round less enjoyable to try and keep up with them?
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That always happens, the pro keeps track of tee times and gets out on the course to check progress, he knows where groups should be at any given time. He doesn't say anything if a group is on pace (four hours or less) if they are following the fast groups. Key here, the pro stays on top of things out there.
 
Lefty78 said:
That always happens, the pro keeps track of tee times and gets out on the course to check progress, he knows where groups should be at any given time. He doesn't say anything if a group is on pace (four hours or less) if they are following the fast groups. Key here, the pro stays on top of things out there.
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OK thanks, I don't know much about how they do things on courses that have someone monitoring pace. The ones I'm usually on are every man for himself.
 
One of my favorite local courses checks your time after 9 in the busy summer months. If you are off pace then you must let any held up groups play through at the turn and you can resume when the coast is clear. However I think their definition of off pace is 2:50+ for 9 holes but even so I can't remember having a round longer than 5h or shorter than 4.
 
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