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Really? I think this is pretty good conversation.
The Official 2013-2014 NBA Thread
Really? I think this is pretty good conversation.
- Moderator
- #602
I agree with this -- The boo lebron vs yay lebron debate might be similar to forged v cast, but it's always fun to get into it once in a while haha
Sorry, WS is win shares. It's not the best stat, but it is a pretty good one (as a single number) in showing offensive and defensive contributions. Dan Gilbert had 5 seasons as majority owner to build a team around Lebron which he failed to do. Lebron had no reason to stick through another 4+ year contract with that much uncertainty. We do agree on the Miami fans, though. They are awful (no offense to any of our Heat fans here) as a whole.
Philly Golf Guy
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Jordan didn't win until 7 seasons in. So LBJ had 2 more to go...
- Moderator
- #606
I think this is a place where many people draw a line in the sand. As lebron grew up near Cleveland, he could have become a very rich man trying to promote the game where his roots are. Rather, he went elsewhere to be successful and as we all know, that left an entire State jaded.
While it's hard to blame him for preferring a place like Miami over Cleveland, that attitude towards him is always going to be there. It's something I wish players of his skill-set would do more of (taking ownership of the franchise that drafted them -- or going to play for their 'home' team).
There's no doubt that Gilbert wanted a winner in Cleveland, and I have even less of a doubt that lebron could have convinced a buddy or two to join him there over the course of his next contract. But that's purely opinion.
You could make that argument, but Jordan also had several championship contributing players on those late 80's teams (Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, etc.). I think the only potential good player LeBron had was Varejao (I'll even throw in Shaq in there), but it was known that AV was injury prone.
Cleveland was just a poorly managed franchise. Below are the salaries for the Cavs during Lebron's last year in Cleveland:Salaries
| Rk | Player | Salary |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Shaquille O'Neal | $20,000,000 |
| 2 | LeBron James | $15,779,912 |
| 3 | Antawn Jamison | $11,641,095 |
| 4 | Mo Williams | $8,860,000 |
| 5 | Anderson Varejao | $6,300,000 |
| 6 | Delonte West | $4,254,250 |
| 7 | Daniel Gibson | $4,088,500 |
| 8 | Jamario Moon | $2,750,000 |
| 9 | Anthony Parker | $2,644,230 |
| 10 | Sebastian Telfair | $2,500,000 |
| 11 | J.J. Hickson | $1,429,200 |
| 12 | Leon Powe | $855,189 |
| 13 | Darnell Jackson | $736,420 |
| 14 | Jawad Williams | $736,420 |
| 15 | Danny Green | $457,588 |
| 16 | Coby Karl | $311,896 |
| 17 | Cedric Jackson | $53,834 |
So, what's the difference between Lebron leaving Cleveland to join another star player and Lebron recruiting a star player to come play with him? We would be having the same argument, only backwards. Hypothetically speaking, if Lebron convinced Wade and Bosh to come join Cleveland, would you say that Lebron sold out and could only win a title by joining up with the Superfriends? Athletes have no obligation to grow the game where they grew up or on the team they were drafted by. It may give someone the warm and fuzzies, but that's besides the point. It was not like Lebron demanded a trade in the middle of a contract. He basically left in free agency. I understand the Cleveland hate for Lebron, from a fan perspective, but Lebron owes nothing to the Cavaliers. Olajuwon left Houston for a year, but I'm not mad at him. I understand it is a different situation, but the premise is still there.
If Lebron somehow makes his way back to Cleveland towards the tail end of his career (assuming he is still a top 10 NBA player at the time), would you be happy to have him back?
- Moderator
- #609
Ehhh not really. lebron in Cleveland had me going from a casual NBA fan to a fan of the Cavs. How he left and what he left gave me a bad taste for any future return.
It really is a shame, because Ohio was going nuts for Basketball while he was here.
It really is a shame, because Ohio was going nuts for Basketball while he was here.
- Admin
- #610
I won't get into the LeBron thing. But for some reason in all sports people quickly forget the past and how good some of the greats were. Best playoff performer? Any list that doesn't start and end with Bill Russell is absurd.
Miller Time
Twitter - @joshmlr
Philly Golf Guy
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That Shaq signing is awful. So is Jamison. Still, they were attempts to give LBJ some veteran help (especially during the post season), which was lacking throughout his time in CLE.
As for the Bulls, Jordan had Scottie and Horace (who Jordan actually helped make better), but in the early years at least it is bleak after that. They had among others a washed up Cartwright, 3 point specialist and one dimensional Paxson and Armstrong (and Hodges I believe) and Scott Williams, who I remember grabbing a key rebound every now and then. The one thing Jordan did was make the players around him better, made them understand their role on the team and how best to contribute, then led them to wins. After a while, they were able to attract more talent and of course tallied off a bunch of titles.
It would have been nice to see Lebron take the same approach with the Cavs. He certainly has the talent to make his team better and to take on that leadership role, but maybe he was too young for that responsibility while in CLE. If he did it though, I am certain multiple championships would have been won in CLE. Heck, he was making the finals with that type of roster to begin with.
I hate to see players chasing championships. I hated Ron Harper becoming Jordan's fluff boy and getting all those rings after he played terrible for the Clips, then went to the Lakers for even more rings. I hated when KG and Ray Allen decided to go to BOS because they realized they could never get a ring on their own. I hated when Malone left the Jazz for the Lakers in an attempt to get a ring. I hated Howard leaving ORL for the Lakers. And I'll probably hate when Anthony leaves the Knicks for wherever, trying to convince himself it's the management, roster, coaching etc. that is keeping him from a ring, not the actual inability to become a true team leader.
As Bosh and Wade start to hit the twilight of their careers, it will be interesting to see how Lebron responds. Will he go some where else? Will he dig in? I think much of what happens at that point will go a long way in defining his legacy.
tgtt
Well-known member
Now, I find this really interesting. I usually don't need to comment in here because: 1) I don't follow the NBA as much as others and, 2) Jank usually has everything covered. But, this comment is completely opposite of why James was always criticized. LBJ never had the killer instinct, and would never be as good as Jordan, or even Kobe, because he continually passed up forcing his own shot and choosing to rely on an open teammate. He was chastised constantly for doing so. I always thought it was BS myself. Honestly, though, this is literally the 1st time I've ever heard someone go the other way with it.
- Moderator
- #614
I'm a casual observer with no competitive basketball experience to back up my opinions. I prefer a sport where the most gifted passers are often lauded as some of the greatest to ever play the game, and in my opinion, guys like lebron (who is crazy gifted at passing) can't pass enough -- Even if the ball inevitably returns to him.
Tadashi70
Well-known member
I think it's funny that emotions always enter a potentially good debate. LBJ would be damned either way. Cleveland fans would be calling him a choker had he stayed. It easy to point fingers when you have no idea what that type of pressure feels like.
MJ took took years to learn how to win and the bulls have him some great players to win with. LDJ took time and other talents to win his as well. But that doesn't matter.
Cleveland fans are ok being selfish and wanting him to stay and just be good enough to make the playoffs. God forbid he wanted more out of his nba experience.
As for KB winning the MVP, good on him. He is one hell of player and had better stats then LBJ and may win the title. But something tells me he wins a title with another team. And when he leaves he will be hated as well, for no good reason.
MJ took took years to learn how to win and the bulls have him some great players to win with. LDJ took time and other talents to win his as well. But that doesn't matter.
Cleveland fans are ok being selfish and wanting him to stay and just be good enough to make the playoffs. God forbid he wanted more out of his nba experience.
As for KB winning the MVP, good on him. He is one hell of player and had better stats then LBJ and may win the title. But something tells me he wins a title with another team. And when he leaves he will be hated as well, for no good reason.
mikedean441
6X HOF
Another problem with Cleveland was striking out in the draft post the Lebron 2003, Boozer leaving hurt too
2004-Luke Jackson #10 overall-BUST
2005-No Picks
2006-Shannon Brown #25 overall-BUST
2006-Daniel Gibson #42 overall-TURD
2007-No Picks
2008- J.J. Hickson #19 overall-Took a few years, "decent" roll player
2009-Christian Eyenga #30 overall--WHO???
Unfortunately thanks to rough drafts they didnt have much for trade bait to bring in help.
Management chose to spend money when they could but they had 2 faults in this
1. Waited til way too late to try and make Lebron happy
2. Overpaid or took on existing contracts of guys beyond their primes on the decline
Lots of fingers to point the blame to
2004-Luke Jackson #10 overall-BUST
2005-No Picks
2006-Shannon Brown #25 overall-BUST
2006-Daniel Gibson #42 overall-TURD
2007-No Picks
2008- J.J. Hickson #19 overall-Took a few years, "decent" roll player
2009-Christian Eyenga #30 overall--WHO???
Unfortunately thanks to rough drafts they didnt have much for trade bait to bring in help.
Management chose to spend money when they could but they had 2 faults in this
1. Waited til way too late to try and make Lebron happy
2. Overpaid or took on existing contracts of guys beyond their primes on the decline
Lots of fingers to point the blame to
- Admin
- #617
This is just as emotional a post as the others.
Gone are the days of rooting for players on the team you root for.
Now its about rooting on players and be damned if they selfishly dont want to build from with in.
Anybody who thinks LBJ did not have a say in who was coming in to Cleveland is out of their minds...But perhaps, like Jordan before him, he is not as great at selecting from availability as his fans think he is.
Think back to the greats from your years prior...How many of them had to leave to chase the ring. That is a thing of the 90s, and it sucks for a league. Free Agency has ruined a lot of things in sports (helped in some ways too), but to think a team's fan base should throw a party for the way he handled that thing is ridiculous (it was out of his mind absurd).
Next time one wants the praise, let them take less money to bring in talent, before pointing the fingers.
Tadashi70
Well-known member
The last great that I can think of is Dirk staying put and winning the title. But there surrounded him ith a few key pieces. I don't think LBJ could have a championship team in Cleveland because it's Cleveland. I'm sure he asked dwade and bosh, they didn't want to be there.
Gone are the days of Dr J lead 76rs or Larry bird dominating cents. Those teams were great DVD guys stayed put because the grass wasn't greener else where.
Today's players want to build their brand and win titles. That is the business of the NBA. It's our new reality. I just think people need to realize that.
mikedean441
6X HOF
Exactly, and as a fan of my team that doesnt mean I have to love the guy still when he ups and leaves the city.
Unless you lived here and rooted for the guy and saw what he did for a beaten city and many other avenues of everyday life its hard to judge the diehard fans for being upset.
- Moderator
- #620
It's the truth. That dude basically had the keys to the city, his face plastered over the most visible wall around, and had an opportunity to get rich inspiring people to do better.
I'm not saying he hasn't done some of those things in Miami, I genuinely don't know -- I just think he could have done incredible things for Cleveland during a long, prosperous career.
- Moderator
- #622
It's an altruistic approach to what professional sports truly isn't about anymore, I guess.
- Admin
- #623
Theey are not gone. Dirk did it. Tim Duncan did it. There are many guys out there that believe the team that gives them the shot can be built around. LBJ did not. Some call that selfish, his fans think otherwise.
The idea that LBJ asked Wade and Bosh to come to Cleveland is not correct. It could not have happened because of the moves (that he seemed fine with) did not allow it.
As a home grown talent and major star of a franchise, that is absolutely part of the job. Its not fantasy sports. These guys make millions and millions of dollars to play a freaking game. How do they make that? Because of the city and fans. Lets not pretend that the fans dont matter, despite how badly some athletes at the top of their games want to pretend that to be true.
When a city stops everything to welcome you, the locals have every right to feel sucker punched the way this was handled. This is not some guy that said here is hand shake, but I am heading to somewhere else. This is someone that baited the city along to announce a slap in the face on national TV.
Tadashi70
Well-known member
How many companies followed him out of town?
mikedean441
6X HOF
Not at all, but its hard for people outside of this area to imagine the type of impact he had. While many hoped he would stay, you are obviously heartbroken when your franchise player ups and leaves.
Its one thing for him to leave, but the way he did it was total D-bagish and the backlash was a million times more than it could have been.
As a fan of Cleveland sports of course Im angry he left, but to think a true fan wouldnt be upset he left and then on top of that the way he did it is just not realistic.
That would be like people living in Chicago rooting for MJ after he leaves Chicago and goes and plays for the Lakers.
A real fan follows his team and up til the late 90's that usually meant that your favorite player on that team along the way. But like JB mentioned Free Agency has destroyed the ability to root for both.
So as a fan I follow my team and to hell with those that choose to abandon ship.