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how much of it is the head/ how much is the shaft?

Nippon Shafts
Buckjob said:
this is the exact opposite of every fitting i've ever had in my entire life always find a head that gets you close then find a shaft to compliment that head plus theres more shaft options that head options so that also helps find something that works for you...... i also don't believe changing a shaft will make someone hit the sweet spot of a club head. if you can't hit the sweet spot you need a more forgiving club head not another shaft. and barely any amateurs hit the sweet spot consistently anyway. lie and loft and length i would think have more help than changing a shaft with hitting the sweet spot.
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Bingo.
 
baldguy said:
believe it or not, it happened. and not just for me. the fitter I worked with said that was a normal thing. some people need lighter shafts, some heavier. some more torque, some less. the fitter is the expert, not me... I'm just happy with the results he got and that is how he got them.
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i agree some people need different shafts flex or weight i'm one of them that prefers one style over another but i've never had a shaft that made me hit the ball in the sweet spot more than another. could it help with spin, ball speed, swing speed....absolutely..... but i don't understand how a shaft will make me hit the center of the club more? it just doesn't make sense unless you're talking about the length of the shaft and not the properties of the shaft?
 
Jman said:
The head has always been the key, the traits within them vary wildy, for instance take that Bio+ that you love and then an AMP Cell, plug the same shafts in each and you will see wildly different numbers because one head is low-mid/low and the other is high/high. The amount that the shaft actually alters the club is NOT as much as some like to believe it is, YES it is important to have a properly fitting shaft BUT the human body CAN and WILL adapt to the shaft being played MUCH more so than you can adapt the to an ill fitting head.

All of these things have been confirmed time and again by some of the best in the industry, we don't make this stuff up. The fact of the matter is we as human beings have the innate ability to GREATLY over-analyze certain aspects of things.
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This is a great post. I am willing to bet that shaft to shaft even the highest of spin and launch to the lowest of spin and launch are very very close if everything is the exact same. The drastic difference you see when swapping a shaft in my opinion is more the reaction your body has to the feel of the shaft than the shaft characteristics itself. It is the same reason some swing heavy shafts faster than light shafts it is all about the reaction you have with a certain feel.

The head is by far the most important and it is my opinion there is no one size fits all head he it a driver or irons.

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Buckjob said:
i agree some people need different shafts flex or weight i'm one of them that prefers one style over another but i've never had a shaft that made me hit the ball in the sweet spot more than another. could it help with spin, ball speed, swing speed....absolutely..... but i don't understand how a shaft will make me hit the center of the club more? it just doesn't make sense unless you're talking about the length of the shaft and not the properties of the shaft?
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so, I actually just called and talked to the fitter to get some clarification. He stood by what he said and said that while he usually looks at smash factor to determine how well the center of the face is being hit, he would be happy to record some other numbers, use some face tape, whatever we like when I go back next week to do the fairway and hybrids part of my fitting. the weight, torque, etc directly affect how much input you need to have (usually subconsciously) to get the club face on the ball consistently. a shaft that fits allows the golfer to swing his natural swing without having to "force" things to happen. for me, that means a heavier, lower torque shaft. I wish I had those numbers to prove my point, but I'll just have to get them next week. my smash factor went from "average amateur" level to being right up there with the tour. Keep in mind - I'm not a good golfer, by any means. it's not like I aspire to be on the tour at some point. and I was equally as skeptical... I even thought to myself "why are we starting with the shaft" when I got fitted. but, I just let him do his thing... a couple hours later I was amazed with what had happened. same head, same grip, same length, same "flex"... different shaft. totally different results.

the driver fitting was similar - once we found the right shaft, the heads started looking a lot more similar. The spin and launch were different, but I was making center of the face contact more often. with driver, the head made more of a difference than with irons, but it was more about the weight of the head and less about the spin, cg, etc. lighter heads were terrible for me. heavier ones were great. once we figured that out, we paired different heavy heads (no jetspeed, etc) with the shaft that he liked for me and I started getting awesome results. *then* we looked at spin and determined that I needed slightly higher spin than something like the SLDR, but less than some other options. 2200 RPM or so was the target. Bio+, BB, and i25 were the best options.

he found the right balance and weight, then fine tuned with things like flex, spin and forgiveness. it worked. that's what I know.
 
Buckjob said:
i agree some people need different shafts flex or weight i'm one of them that prefers one style over another but i've never had a shaft that made me hit the ball in the sweet spot more than another. could it help with spin, ball speed, swing speed....absolutely..... but i don't understand how a shaft will make me hit the center of the club more? it just doesn't make sense unless you're talking about the length of the shaft and not the properties of the shaft?
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We could take shafts, put those silly graphic sleeves on them to cover up the graphics and flex's and have people alternate through them at an event and not only would the vast majority miss on the flexes they would hit the lighter flex better. It would blow minds, but still people would deny it.
 
baldguy said:
I think that depends on your definition of performance. If you're looking for consistency, the shaft plays a larger role in how well you make contact than any other part of the club. This is something I didn't quite believe until it was proven during my recent full bag fitting. The fitter I worked with, who came from the R&D department at Adams (and many of us met in March), explained it all to me in very technical terms that made sense but I couldn't recite... then seeing the numbers on the trackman screen solidified it for me. The shaft was far more important to improving my game than the head. So much so that I'm probably keeping the heads I already have and installing new shafts. The only reason I'd change the heads is to move to something with less offset since I'd like to take some of the draw out of my normal ball flight.

now, if your definition of performance is distance and forgiveness, then the head is the primary piece to work with. The shaft can optimize your consistency, but the head needs to fit that consistency. The shaft may also be generating more or less launch and spin than what you want, and the head can compensate. Of course, swing is more important than gear in nearly all cases. This is how it was explained to me, anyway. Given the credentials, experience, and unbelievable level of knowledge of the guy doing the explaining, I believe it. I can certainly see the results on the course. I always hit my 6 iron well, but the more I use the two 6 irons we built to test in the real world, the more I believe. Same speedblade head(s), but much better flights on a much more consistent basis with these two properly fit shafts.
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I agree with this in regards to irons. I think it becomes a little more complicated with driver/wood heads though.
 
Buckjob said:
i agree some people need different shafts flex or weight i'm one of them that prefers one style over another but i've never had a shaft that made me hit the ball in the sweet spot more than another. could it help with spin, ball speed, swing speed....absolutely..... but i don't understand how a shaft will make me hit the center of the club more? it just doesn't make sense unless you're talking about the length of the shaft and not the properties of the shaft?
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This is where fittings are so hit and miss regardless of what so many believe. Are they important? Yes. However the way most are set up, and the feedback given on forums (not just THP), you would think that most amateurs are making repeatable swings. I mean truly repeatable. Yet in every test we have ever done, the average amateur golfer's swing changes quite a bit each time.

Now to the point of those repeatable swings and players at a different level, yes, they can fit to the shaft (usually due to feel) and then find a head in line to work with that. We have seen that on the tour quite a bit, where they like a shaft and move to a new head. That head can be altered enough in today's day and age to make it work.

People continue to underestimate the adjustments the body makes with the smallest changes that take place. Weather, terrain, how they feel, grip, etc can and will impact a person's swing and a controlled environment eliminates much of that.
 
JB said:
This is where fittings are so hit and miss regardless of what so many believe. Are they important? Yes. However the way most are set up, and the feedback given on forums (not just THP), you would think that most amateurs are making repeatable swings. I mean truly repeatable. Yet in every test we have ever done, the average amateur golfer's swing changes quite a bit each time.

Now to the point of those repeatable swings and players at a different level, yes, they can fit to the shaft (usually due to feel) and then find a head in line to work with that. We have seen that on the tour quite a bit, where they like a shaft and move to a new head. That head can be altered enough in today's day and age to make it work.

People continue to underestimate the adjustments the body makes with the smallest changes that take place. Weather, terrain, how they feel, grip, etc can and will impact a person's swing and a controlled environment eliminates much of that.
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JB

Don't know if it is possible but in the future at one of the events it would be interesting to see if the same shaft was available ladies flex to x flex and it was covered up how many could tell. Like wise have the same shaft but the heavier version.

I know from all the shaft guys I have talked to even most of the PGA tour guys can't tell flex if it is covered up however they are very sensitive to weight changes. Would be interested to see if this holds true with amateurs as well.

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JB said:
This is where fittings are so hit and miss regardless of what so many believe. Are they important? Yes. However the way most are set up, and the feedback given on forums (not just THP), you would think that most amateurs are making repeatable swings. I mean truly repeatable. Yet in every test we have ever done, the average amateur golfer's swing changes quite a bit each time.

Now to the point of those repeatable swings and players at a different level, yes, they can fit to the shaft (usually due to feel) and then find a head in line to work with that. We have seen that on the tour quite a bit, where they like a shaft and move to a new head. That head can be altered enough in today's day and age to make it work.

People continue to underestimate the adjustments the body makes with the smallest changes that take place. Weather, terrain, how they feel, grip, etc can and will impact a person's swing and a controlled environment eliminates much of that.
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I don't think anyone would argue that the human body is perfect, or that all of the things you mention don't affect the golf swing. That is an understood constant. The goal of a fitting is to find a setup that provides as much consistency as possible when all those things happen. There is a very wide gap between "truly repeatable" and "more repeatable". The shafts I was fit into make my swing "more repeatable" and I'm very, very happy with that result. Taking those results out of the controlled environment and into the real world is exactly why I bought and installed two of the fitter's recommended shafts in two identical 6 iron heads with identical grips and lengths. I'm spending time with both clubs to see which gives the best results out on the course and on the range (in as many varied environments as possible) before I decide which one to put in the rest of my irons. One thing is certain already though - I hit both of these much better than I hit the stock shaft. To a pretty surprising degree.
 
baldguy said:
so, I actually just called and talked to the fitter to get some clarification. He stood by what he said and said that while he usually looks at smash factor to determine how well the center of the face is being hit, he would be happy to record some other numbers, use some face tape, whatever we like when I go back next week to do the fairway and hybrids part of my fitting. the weight, torque, etc directly affect how much input you need to have (usually subconsciously) to get the club face on the ball consistently. a shaft that fits allows the golfer to swing his natural swing without having to "force" things to happen. for me, that means a heavier, lower torque shaft. I wish I had those numbers to prove my point, but I'll just have to get them next week. my smash factor went from "average amateur" level to being right up there with the tour. Keep in mind - I'm not a good golfer, by any means. it's not like I aspire to be on the tour at some point. and I was equally as skeptical... I even thought to myself "why are we starting with the shaft" when I got fitted. but, I just let him do his thing... a couple hours later I was amazed with what had happened. same head, same grip, same length, same "flex"... different shaft. totally different results.

the driver fitting was similar - once we found the right shaft, the heads started looking a lot more similar. The spin and launch were different, but I was making center of the face contact more often. with driver, the head made more of a difference than with irons, but it was more about the weight of the head and less about the spin, cg, etc. lighter heads were terrible for me. heavier ones were great. once we figured that out, we paired different heavy heads (no jetspeed, etc) with the shaft that he liked for me and I started getting awesome results. *then* we looked at spin and determined that I needed slightly higher spin than something like the SLDR, but less than some other options. 2200 RPM or so was the target. Bio+, BB, and i25 were the best options.

he found the right balance and weight, then fine tuned with things like flex, spin and forgiveness. it worked. that's what I know.
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how did you decide what club head to start with? and i'd love to see some numbers.
 
Buckjob said:
how did you decide what club head to start with? and i'd love to see some numbers.
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we started with the speedblade since that is what I was gaming. he took a baseline with my gamer then started looking at the numbers with different shafts. the only numbers I remember are smash factor (indicator of a good strike) but the spin and launch were very similar to stock, with the launch coming down slightly as we moved into the heavier shafts. good contact was the main thing he was concerned with when selecting a shaft. I will get some more next week when I go back... although I no longer have a speedblade 6i with the stock shaft and I don't know for sure that he has that shaft to compare it with. both of my sb 6i heads are now fitted with new shafts... one c-taper and one RIP tour.
 
baldguy said:
we started with the speedblade since that is what I was gaming. he took a baseline with my gamer then started looking at the numbers with different shafts. the only numbers I remember are smash factor (indicator of a good strike) but the spin and launch were very similar to stock, with the launch coming down slightly as we moved into the heavier shafts. good contact was the main thing he was concerned with when selecting a shaft. I will get some more next week when I go back... although I no longer have a speedblade 6i with the stock shaft and I don't know for sure that he has that shaft to compare it with. both of my sb 6i heads are now fitted with new shafts... one c-taper and one RIP tour.
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how many swing did you make with each shaft? and Regular C Taper or C Taper Lites?
 
Buckjob said:
how many swing did you make with each shaft? and Regular C Taper or C Taper Lites?
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it was 6-8 per shaft, with more on the ones that really produced good numbers. we tried everything from 55g graphite to 130g steel with a ton of stops in between. The two he recommended were the 115g graphite RIP tour and the 120g steel c-taper. then we tried a ton of different heads on the c-taper shaft. i don't know how many, but I know for sure we tried a crapload of them from altitudes all the way through blades. smash factor didn't change much at all, but launch and spin did. we didn't find anything that produced better numbers than the speedblades so he said I could take my pick based on trajectory, feel and look, or just stick with what I have. he did say that I would probably want something with less offset (he really liked the apex pros for me) once I settled into the new shafts.
 
JB - I'm thinking about this. Is it your experience that amateurs cannot tell the difference between different shafts? For instance a X flex black tie versus a regular flex ProLaunch blue?
 
blugold said:
JB - I'm thinking about this. Is it your experience that amateurs cannot tell the difference between different shafts? For instance a X flex black tie versus a regular flex ProLaunch blue?
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Nope. I have never said that.
 
JB said:
Nope. I have never said that.
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I know. I'm just trying to extrapolate and further understand the discussion
 
lightningbolt44 said:
JB

Don't know if it is possible but in the future at one of the events it would be interesting to see if the same shaft was available ladies flex to x flex and it was covered up how many could tell. Like wise have the same shaft but the heavier version.

I know from all the shaft guys I have talked to even most of the PGA tour guys can't tell flex if it is covered up however they are very sensitive to weight changes. Would be interested to see if this holds true with amateurs as well.

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I guarantee I can tell the difference- in both iron and wood
 
Just throwing in my two cents here, but I feel a properly fit shaft does more to correct swing flaws then it does to optimize the flight and distance of proper swings.
 
fupresti said:
Just throwing in my two cents here, but I feel a properly fit shaft does more to correct swing flaws then it does to optimize the flight and distance of proper swings.
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thank you, that's a much more concise version of what I was trying to say. well put.
 
lightningbolt44 said:
How many flexes in between will it take you though? Can you tell a stiff from an x instantly? Or do you have to drop two or more flexes to notice the difference

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Good question. I think it would depend on the shaft. In the PX line, I have gamed 4 different flexes (three in irons and 1 in wedges) and could tell those instantly - we're talking probably 2 swings. I have played 5.5 in wedges, 6.0 in irons, 6.5 flighted in irons and 6.5 currently. They feel significantly different to me. They are also weighted different. The graphite - if the weight was the same would take alittle longer i think.
 
fupresti said:
Just throwing in my two cents here, but I feel a properly fit shaft does more to correct swing flaws then it does to optimize the flight and distance of proper swings.
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Is it the shaft correcting your swing flaws or is it the way the body is reacting to the shaft bend profile and feel? I know that goes with the fit but at that point is it really the shaft itself doing it or just your reaction to it?
How many have hit a shaft that us supposed to be low or high spin and gotten the opposite result ? Same thing with launch. Shafts are not that different it is each individuals reaction to the shaft that changes things. It is why shaft advice online is shaky at best without it in your hands you have no idea how you will react to it.

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lightningbolt44 said:
Is it the shaft correcting your swing flaws or is it the way the body is reacting to the shaft bend profile and feel? I know that goes with the fit but at that point is it really the shaft itself doing it or just your reaction to it?
How many have hit a shaft that us supposed to be low or high spin and gotten the opposite result ? Same thing with launch. Shafts are not that different it is each individuals reaction to the shaft that changes things. It is why shaft advice online is shaky at best without it in your hands you have no idea how you will react to it.

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I disagree. My launch differs greatly from the DG line to the PX line. Stratospheric difference.
 
Wicked Cool Bearded Man said:
Good question. I think it would depend on the shaft. In the PX line, I have gamed 4 different flexes (three in irons and 1 in wedges) and could tell those instantly - we're talking probably 2 swings. I have played 5.5 in wedges, 6.0 in irons, 6.5 flighted in irons and 6.5 currently. They feel significantly different to me. They are also weighted different. The graphite - if the weight was the same would take alittle longer i think.
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I am the same way with the weight I can tell instantly the flex I can't though. This is all very interesting to me to hear different peoples perspective

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lightningbolt44 said:
I am the same way with the weight I can tell instantly the flex I can't though. This is all very interesting to me to hear different peoples perspective

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Totally bro. And to see some people have similar success with different shafts amazes me. I am not that good I guess haha
 
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