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long baller observations

Again, while that may be true, that is a really small test. The same could be said about our FL Golf outing where the driving distance was MUCH farther than 200 yards and based scientifically with a launch monitor. Small studies can be found with both sides showing one way or the other.
 
Same thing about handicaps. If you ask someone what the golf handicap is, most believe that it is based on their average score. When in reality that is not the case at all.
 
JB said:
Again, while that may be true, that is a really small test. The same could be said about our FL Golf outing where the driving distance was MUCH farther than 200 yards and based scientifically with a launch monitor. Small studies can be found with both sides showing one way or the other.
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I'll have to side with JB here. I was fitted for my driver about a month ago and used a launch monitor in addition to hitting on the range. I was carrying the ball from 278 to 288 almost every time, and had a projected total roll out from 290 to 305. The guy I went with was carrying it from 290 to 298, and was over 300+ with roll out every time. I doubt the monitor plus on course results lie that regularly.
 
Schweitzer_07 said:
I'll have to side with JB here. I was fitted for my driver about a month ago and used a launch monitor in addition to hitting on the range. I was carrying the ball from 278 to 288 almost every time, and had a projected total roll out from 290 to 305. The guy I went with was carrying it from 290 to 298, and was over 300+ with roll out every time. I doubt the monitor plus on course results lie that regularly.
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While I agree that many inflate their driving distance, I also see first hand in almost every test we do that the drives are going further than 200 yards. Based on course conditions, launch monitor, and GPS.
 
Rather than taking the average golfer[which is what is being referred to? correct me if im wrong], which can include people who play 120 yard slices and really only play 2-3 times per year, I would like to see these results actual golfers that play at least 2-3 rounds/month
 
I just don't see who they are surveying to get distances of 200 yards. That means a typical par 4 (350 - 400 yards) would be difficult to reach in two for an average golfer. Maybe I am out of the loop, but that's not the case for most golfers I play with. Almost everyone that I know hits driver followed by 8 iron, 9 iron, or wedge for the most part.
 
First of all, the idea of tall or short doesn’t mean much. I recall reading an article in one of the golf rags a very long time ago that described the “ideal” golfer as someone who was around 5’-8” to 5’-10” and the author pointed to their low center of gravity as the reason. These days, whenever I hear some talking head go on and on about how big and tall some pro is, I always smile a bit and think about that article.

I’m a “long-baller” (I’m six-foot even) and I firmly believe that height and equipment have far less to do with results than good technique. I had a lesson in this not too long ago when I began to see my overall distance fall and couldn’t understand why.

I’ve always had a very upright, “Reverse-C” type of swing (think Johnny Miller) and for years it served me very well, I never had any issue with distance. But a few years ago, I began to notice that my driver distance was falling; not too much all at once, but noticeably.

Over the course of a few seasons, it began to be a problem as I was struggling to reach distances that, in the past, I never thought twice about reaching. So I began to look into why and I couldn’t come up with any reason. As far as I could see I was still swinging about as fast as I always did and though my big “Reverse-C” finish wasn’t as dramatic as it once was it was still a solid lower-case “C” as far as I could tell.

Then I happened upon a post on a golf message board (not this one) that got me to thinking. The poster wrote that he was basically going for the feeling that his armpits were over the balls of his feet and that he was looking for a more balanced setup that didn’t have him leaning over too far and “lifting up” at impact – something that I was doing myself.
That got me to thinking about my own swing and I began to realize that I was not generating the same “top down” power that I once did and that I was lifting the club around my neck instead of turning it around my body.

So I'm out there playing one day and a guy I was playing with (who was actually a bit shorter than me) had a real nice swing but the most remarkable thing was that he had tons of power but with what seemed to be very little effort and his swing was very compact. I watched what he did and I began to think of the post I’d read only a week or so earlier.

After the round, I went to the range at the course. It was virtually empty and quiet, which was perfect. I set a 3-iron down to act as a guide and I checked my alignment, which was fine along with my ball position, grip, etc. - everything was OK.
So I set myself up so that my armpits were more or less over the balls of my feet and I took the club back very slowly to get a feel for things and I immediately recognized what that guy was talking about. It almost felt as if I was sitting on something and I was just turning on a swivel chair. So I teed up a ball and I took another very slow swing and made contact just to see what's what and right then I knew that this was going to be good!

I began hitting balls with slow swings and I gradually began to take bigger turns and add some power and before long I was making solid contact. After a few more slow swings I began to bring everything up to speed and I was nothing short of amazed!
I was literally bombing shots ten to twenty yards over the corner of the fence (which I know for a fact is 260 yards away), but the amazing thing is that it felt as if I was hardly doing anything: I felt like I had complete control over everything.

After I finished a bucket (basically hitting all of the range's balls over their fence and into the woods), I just stood there and said to myself, "This is it! This is what I've been looking for!"

I wondered why the sudden change, but after thinking about it, I realized that as I got older, my upper body strength as well as my “twitch” reflex had diminished over time (which explained the gradual decline) and that I could no longer just muscle the ball out there like I used to. This new, flatter swing had me turning more around my body and the power was now coming from the big muscles in my legs rather than from a quick upper body movement.

Nowadays, I can easily reach the distances I was used to reaching with what now feels like far less effort and unlike in the past, I now actually have an “80 percent” swing with power in reserve when I need it.

So the moral of the story for me was that we all get older and we all “lose something” and that, over time, adjustments need to be made to compensate.
But more importantly, this whole experience pointed out that technique, balance and timing are far more important than brute force or body type. Today, at 52, I’m hitting drives more solidly than I have in years and if anything I’ve actually gained some distance. But the biggest payoff is the control I now have as well as the ability to actually decide where and how far a drive will go (most of the time) instead of just swinging for the fences and hoping that pure distance overcomes obstacles.

It’s like the old saying: “It ain’t whatchya got, it’s how you use it”.


-JP
 
Great to hear JP! Its such a great feeling when something just 'clicks', isnt it?
JPsuff said:
First of all, the idea of tall or short doesn’t mean much. I recall reading an article in one of the golf rags a very long time ago that described the “ideal” golfer as someone who was around 5’-8” to 5’-10” and the author pointed to their low center of gravity as the reason. These days, whenever I hear some talking head go on and on about how big and tall some pro is, I always smile a bit and think about that article.

I’m a “long-baller” (I’m six-foot even) and I firmly believe that height and equipment have far less to do with results than good technique. I had a lesson in this not too long ago when I began to see my overall distance fall and couldn’t understand why.

I’ve always had a very upright, “Reverse-C” type of swing (think Johnny Miller) and for years it served me very well, I never had any issue with distance. But a few years ago, I began to notice that my driver distance was falling; not too much all at once, but noticeably.

Over the course of a few seasons, it began to be a problem as I was struggling to reach distances that, in the past, I never thought twice about reaching. So I began to look into why and I couldn’t come up with any reason. As far as I could see I was still swinging about as fast as I always did and though my big “Reverse-C” finish wasn’t as dramatic as it once was it was still a solid lower-case “C” as far as I could tell.

Then I happened upon a post on a golf message board (not this one) that got me to thinking. The poster wrote that he was basically going for the feeling that his armpits were over the balls of his feet and that he was looking for a more balanced setup that didn’t have him leaning over too far and “lifting up” at impact – something that I was doing myself.
That got me to thinking about my own swing and I began to realize that I was not generating the same “top down” power that I once did and that I was lifting the club around my neck instead of turning it around my body.

So I'm out there playing one day and a guy I was playing with (who was actually a bit shorter than me) had a real nice swing but the most remarkable thing was that he had tons of power but with what seemed to be very little effort and his swing was very compact. I watched what he did and I began to think of the post I’d read only a week or so earlier.

After the round, I went to the range at the course. It was virtually empty and quiet, which was perfect. I set a 3-iron down to act as a guide and I checked my alignment, which was fine along with my ball position, grip, etc. - everything was OK.
So I set myself up so that my armpits were more or less over the balls of my feet and I took the club back very slowly to get a feel for things and I immediately recognized what that guy was talking about. It almost felt as if I was sitting on something and I was just turning on a swivel chair. So I teed up a ball and I took another very slow swing and made contact just to see what's what and right then I knew that this was going to be good!

I began hitting balls with slow swings and I gradually began to take bigger turns and add some power and before long I was making solid contact. After a few more slow swings I began to bring everything up to speed and I was nothing short of amazed!
I was literally bombing shots ten to twenty yards over the corner of the fence (which I know for a fact is 260 yards away), but the amazing thing is that it felt as if I was hardly doing anything: I felt like I had complete control over everything.

After I finished a bucket (basically hitting all of the range's balls over their fence and into the woods), I just stood there and said to myself, "This is it! This is what I've been looking for!"

I wondered why the sudden change, but after thinking about it, I realized that as I got older, my upper body strength as well as my “twitch” reflex had diminished over time (which explained the gradual decline) and that I could no longer just muscle the ball out there like I used to. This new, flatter swing had me turning more around my body and the power was now coming from the big muscles in my legs rather than from a quick upper body movement.

Nowadays, I can easily reach the distances I was used to reaching with what now feels like far less effort and unlike in the past, I now actually have an “80 percent” swing with power in reserve when I need it.

So the moral of the story for me was that we all get older and we all “lose something” and that, over time, adjustments need to be made to compensate.
But more importantly, this whole experience pointed out that technique, balance and timing are far more important than brute force or body type. Today, at 52, I’m hitting drives more solidly than I have in years and if anything I’ve actually gained some distance. But the biggest payoff is the control I now have as well as the ability to actually decide where and how far a drive will go (most of the time) instead of just swinging for the fences and hoping that pure distance overcomes obstacles.

It’s like the old saying: “It ain’t whatchya got, it’s how you use it”.


-JP
Click to expand...
 
I wonder what this swing could do for younger players who can still muscle the ball out there?
 
Are they only counting balls that land in the fairway or something? A 200 yard slice with the driver is the easiest shot in golf for me to hit! :laughing: However, it ain't comin down anywhere near the fairway!!!

I've driven several "300ish yard par 4s" though. People also comment on how far I hit my driver, either by approximating based on yardage markers, or using my range finder, or GPS. All thats only when I'm hitting my driver well, which hasn't been too often lately, not sure what I've down with my swing with the longer clubs.
 
thats all well and good but it still doesnt discount the fact that taller/bigger guys tend to poke it out farther than short/skinny guys... aside from sadlowski(who is still taller than i am)

it is much rarer for a smaller guy to hit it farther than a bigger guy...

lemme put it this way... the girls on the lpga have perfect form and can outplay most everyone on this forum... yet i can pretty much guarantee they arent bombing 300yrds a pop like the guys on tour... and the korean chicks arent but 4'2
 
bogey_russ said:
thats all well and good but it still doesnt discount the fact that taller/bigger guys tend to poke it out farther than short/skinny guys... aside from sadlowski(who is still taller than i am)

it is much rarer for a smaller guy to hit it farther than a bigger guy...

lemme put it this way... the girls on the lpga have perfect form and can outplay most everyone on this forum... yet i can pretty much guarantee they arent bombing 300yrds a pop like the guys on tour... and the korean chicks arent but 4'2
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You must have missed Wie's 370 yard drive a few weeks back. Or Suzann at the PGA Show routinely hitting it 265. However with that being said, they are both taller girls. But Ochoa could hit it a ton and she was 5'6
 
I would love to be able to hit the long ball with my driver. On good days I am between 220-240. I am thinking of doing a launch monitor fitting soon, or I may just wait till Sept at the outing. I have a feeling that even if I get fit, once I get down to FL and do the testings I will want to change equipment or shafts the weekend after I get back.
 
JB said:
You must have missed Wie's 370 yard drive a few weeks back. Or Suzann at the PGA Show routinely hitting it 265. However with that being said, they are both taller girls. But Ochoa could hit it a ton and she was 5'6
Click to expand...

man i love watching the lpga... those girls are great(and hot)... we went to go see then at kingsmill a few years ago and i was amazed at how far the shorter girls were hitting the ball... and how straight the ball went... but after seeing the guys play is like watching aliens land... that is otherworldly
 
Thainer21 said:
Rather than taking the average golfer[which is what is being referred to? correct me if im wrong], which can include people who play 120 yard slices and really only play 2-3 times per year, I would like to see these results actual golfers that play at least 2-3 rounds/month
Click to expand...

That last study I posted was exactly that. 86 member golfers with mid-low handicaps. Still came out to a 212 average.

That means a typical par 4 (350 - 400 yards) would be difficult to reach in two for an average golfer
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A 350-400+ par for is not so bad if you drive 200-220. I am generally a driver followed by a 21.5* or 25* hybrid on a 400+ yard par 4. For a 350 I am usually a driver followed by an 8 or (hopfully) the 37* niblick.

During a round I might get lucky squeeze a bit more than 220 out of a drive (wind, downhill, hard ground etc etc). I love it when that happens because then I can really get the Wedges/Niblicks in play. But I have only hit over 250 once in my life. And 9 out of 10 times I am looking at 200-220. Needless to say, any par 5's are out of my range in two, and many times I am doing short bump and runs or soft chips for my 3rd shot on par 4's. But remember I am in the huge 'trying to break 100' group so if I can achieve bogey golf I am very very happy.

And I am not overweight or out of shape or anything. I have decent flexibily and- my pro told me- a nice smooth swing. My launch angle is good and I am very very straight (I actually hit every fairway with my driver on Sunday).

Maybe all the studies are wrong, but I'd still take a 212 average if I am putting every drive on the fairway before I worry too much about why I can't hit 250.
 
TwoSolitudes said:
Maybe all the studies are wrong, but I'd still take a 212 average if I am putting every drive on the fairway before I worry too much about why I can't hit 250.
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That is definitely mroe about where you play. On the courses I play usually, a 212 yard drive will mean you are going to have a long iron in on every single hole. While many are fine with that, I play this game to score once in a while and that is not really scoring golf. I have to say, that while some studies show that, there is not a single low handicap player in any one of my groups that averages 212. Not even close. Most are around 240. Nothing long really, but substantial enough.
 
On a 360-380 Par 4 I usually hit 3 wood if its a tight driving hole. For some reason I get good distance out of my 3 wood. On my home course the first hole is listed at 380, but GPS tells me its 365 depending on the tee location(tee box is about 25 yards deep). OB to the left, 9th hole to the right its not a wide fairway. I tend to hit my Launcher 3w(product plug) and then am left with anywhere from a 8-PW in. If I hit a driver I usually have the 9-SW in. In that scenario there is not real reason for me to hit driver. I would rather have the extra club or 2 in to the green from the FW than be in trouble in the rough.

The 9th hole is a 420 par 4. I hit driver and have either a 3h-5i in to the green depending on the wind. Usually the wind is in your face on this hole. Sometimes I can hit it out to the 150 marker and have a nice 7-8 iron in to the green(but that is rare).

I don't want to change drivers, I like the feel and set up of my current one. I think the shaft will be the change when that time comes.
 
ive reached par5's in 2 and im a short hitter...
a 230 yrd draw that got around a dogleg with driver...
and a 4w that i caught as pure as possible...
my lack of distance i make up for in scrambling/short game
 
here is another thing to ponder. Those same people in studies that they tested and hit 212 on average that said they were a low/mid handicap, was that verified. Golfers have a tendency to change more than their driving distance. To me a low/mid handicap golfer is going to be between scratch and 15. I find it hard to believe that unless they are incredible putters that they are averaging 200 yards of the tee.
 
I played yesterday with a guy that was consistently a long ways behind me, but I only beat him by a couple shots over the round. He was older, maybe mid 60's but everything he hit was 180-200 down the middle. His short game was unreal... all chips and long putts were within 3-6 ft. He said that he finds any hole over 370 basically unreachable in 2. While hitting it far gets people talking on the range, and first tee, having a great short game keeps people talking after the round. I was jealous of his game for the reason that he was so consistent, and great around the greens. I have "short baller" envy.
 
JB said:
That is definitely mroe about where you play. On the courses I play usually, a 212 yard drive will mean you are going to have a long iron in on every single hole. While many are fine with that, I play this game to score once in a while and that is not really scoring golf. I have to say, that while some studies show that, there is not a single low handicap player in any one of my groups that averages 212. Not even close. Most are around 240. Nothing long really, but substantial enough.
Click to expand...

Must be nice. If I could average 240+ on a drive and still be on the fairway..... whew! That would completely change my game.
 
JB said:
here is another thing to ponder. Those same people in studies that they tested and hit 212 on average that said they were a low/mid handicap, was that verified. Golfers have a tendency to change more than their driving distance. To me a low/mid handicap golfer is going to be between scratch and 15. I find it hard to believe that unless they are incredible putters that they are averaging 200 yards of the tee.
Click to expand...

i dont know of anyone who is +10 to scratch that hits a driver shorter than 200 consistently... even the old guys that i play with on occasion that are low cappers can poke it out there(tho they can barely walk sometimes)
 
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