How forgiveness impacts progress

[YetiLooper]

This is far too great a generalization to the first question. My game got significantly better going to larger club heads, and I have been a single digit for quite a while.
And yes you see tour players with more forgiving players irons, but check the bottom of their bag. They are ABSOLUTELY playing hybrids and hollow body irons (which are Altitudes), or larger club heads. Why? Obvious answer is they want the ball flight and forgiveness. In our conversations with them, that is the exact reason they give.

Guess I need to have a conversation with them .

I guess my thing is JB, is we have had people testify in both directions. If golf and the gear available were a black and white topic we would only have pure blades and hybrid irons. I think a lot of the discussions in this area tend to go far too black and white. Yes Jordan Spieth plays a Utility iron, but he also plays a Vokey 46° PW instead of a set wedge. You play better with a larger club, that's awesome it's what works for you. Others play better with smaller clubs that's great for them.

As many shades of grey as there are people on this earth.

 

[JB]

Nobody has said it was a black and white thing.

You said Most single digits would benefit from blades. That is just not accurate.
Then you said most tour players dont play larger clubs, which they absolutely do.

 

[YetiLooper]

Nobody has said it was a black and white thing.

You said Most single digits would benefit from blades. That is just not accurate.
Then you said most tour players dont play larger clubs, which they absolutely do.

Just my opinion JB, I get it you don't like my opinion. That's fine.

 

[blugold]

Guess I need to have a conversation with them .

I guess my thing is JB, is we have had people testify in both directions. If golf and the gear available were a black and white topic we would only have pure blades and hybrid irons. I think a lot of the discussions in this area tend to go far too black and white. Yes Jordan Spieth plays a Utility iron, but he also plays a Vokey 46° PW instead of a set wedge. You play better with a larger club, that's awesome it's what works for you. Others play better with smaller clubs that's great for them.

As many shades of grey as there are people on this earth.

My take from this thread wasn't about why people play better or worse with a design. which may be the case, because the human brain is tricky.

But my point, a blade iron won't tell you what you did wrong in your swing. Just that something went wrong. GI clubs can and do tell you the same information. Neither set will tell you how to fix it.

 

[YetiLooper]

I still think this has merit.... to an extent. I think it's a terrible idea for a beginner or a high handicapper. Once you get under 12 or so I think the idea of getting a less forgiving club to practice with at the range can have it's benefits. Notice I said "club" not "clubs". The only downside is you would need to make sure all the specs are close, length and lie in particular. Offset would be a challenge to match.

All that said I wouldn't hit many shots with that less forgiving club just use it as a bit of a barometer.

Taylormade has a promo video with Justin Rose talking about the new PSi irons. In it he says something that I absolutely love and it's a mindset I have too. Paraphrase here.
"I practice for and expect good shots, I don't expect bad shots, but if they do happen I like to have a little forgiveness."

That's exactly how I feel.

Here JB this was my original comment. I have a lot of cans, and coulds, I didn't speak in absolutes.

 

[YetiLooper]

My take from this thread wasn't about why people play better or worse with a design. which may be the case, because the human brain is tricky.

But my point, a blade iron won't tell you what you did wrong in your swing. Just that something went wrong. GI clubs can and do tell you the same information. Neither set will tell you how to fix it.

I merely suggested it might help people while practicing. But my opinion needs to be corrected apparently.

 

[JB]

Would most single digit players benefit more from a tour cavity than a SGI? Yes. Yes you see tour players with more forgiving players irons, but you aren't seeing Cleveland Altitudes or Cobra Fly-Z XL, irons out there.

Here JB this was my original comment. I have a lot of cans, and coulds, I didn't speak in absolutes.

Im not putting words in anybody's mouth. Read the quote from your post. All I did was point out that it is just not accurate.
Most tour players are using larger club heads and hybrids.

Nobody is trying to make something black and white. Im a firm believer in people should play what they want. On that note Im out. Enjoy the conversation people.

 

[blugold]

I merely suggested it might help people while practicing. But my opinion needs to be corrected apparently.

It's your opinion. You're allowed to have it and I'm allowed to disagree with it.

I don't think a blade for practice will help a golfer as much as understanding their swing, its faults, and its tendencies.

Ball flight never lies.

 

[YetiLooper]

Agreed, I never disagreed with that sentiment either.

 

[blugold]

Agreed, I never disagreed with that sentiment either.

With that said, Robmypro, doesn't understand how to read his ballflight. Which is fine, there's no shame in that. I think more learning about the nuances of ballflight will be more beneficial to him than blade irons.

Just my opinion of course.

With all of that said, the Eye2 irons were very good, any excuse to upgrade to a more modern design should be welcomed. ;D

 

[YetiLooper]

Modern tour cavity irons would have been considered OS GI irons 20 years ago.

 

[Trout Bum]

My take from this thread wasn't about why people play better or worse with a design. which may be the case, because the human brain is tricky.

But my point, a blade iron won't tell you what you did wrong in your swing. Just that something went wrong. GI clubs can and do tell you the same information. Neither set will tell you how to fix it.

Aint that the truth!

 

[Aussie Dave]

My take from this thread wasn't about why people play better or worse with a design. which may be the case, because the human brain is tricky.

But my point, a blade iron won't tell you what you did wrong in your swing. Just that something went wrong. GI clubs can and do tell you the same information. Neither set will tell you how to fix it.

I can slice a GI iron just as easy as a Blade Iron....LOL

 

[ORUTRAVIS]

Nobody has said it was a black and white thing.

You said Most single digits would benefit from blades. That is just not accurate.
Then you said most tour players dont play larger clubs, which they absolutely do.

This is definitely not a black and white thing. It seemingly a similar conversation imo to the Harris English 10 year old shaft thing. PGA players play what they are use to playing. The guys who grew up playing blades are playing blades the guys who played cavity back and game improvement clubs play those. I played two years on the Hooters Tour and played game improvement clubs even though I played blades growing up. My personal belief is you should play the most forgiving club you can stand to look at. That is why I am gaming the XR Pros.

I also believe that it is often times easier to make swing changes when you have more forgiving clubs. Just like there are many instructors that will have you tee it up after swing adjustments to regain confidence.

As a quick side note....you aren't seeing guys with the Cobra XL or Altitudes because these clubs are actually really good at decreasing spin (side and backspin). This creates clubs that just don't stick for most tour players on some of the firmer green conditions. Many will disagree but guys on tour really like to spin the ball and hit it much higher than may be optimal for distance and hit the shots they want to hit.

I have include a video of DJ talking about blades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPTUnWrKmjo Then Justin Rose talking about different iron types : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wscXHyE1dWI

Camilo Video Talking about spin and making sure its high enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw1qNHKSR4k

 

[JB]

As a quick side note....you aren't seeing guys with the Cobra XL or Altitudes because these clubs are actually really good at decreasing spin (side and backspin). This creates clubs that just don't stick for most tour players on some of the firmer green conditions. Many will disagree but guys on tour really like to spin the ball and hit it much higher than may be optimal for distance and hit the shots they want to hit.

Nailed it. Thinner faces reduce spin and of course the ball can only spin on one axis. Its also why you are seeing larger club heads and even a select hollow body in their lower lofts where spin is not generally an issue since peak will still get above 90 feet but above a certain loft, they want the control of spin. The hybrid/Utility/GI in the low irons on tour are so much the norm that it reached over 80% in a number of tournaments this year.

 

[ORUTRAVIS]

Nailed it. Thinner faces reduce spin and of course the ball can only spin on one axis. Its also why you are seeing larger club heads and even a select hollow body in their lower lofts where spin is not generally an issue since peak will still get above 90 feet but above a certain loft, they want the control of spin. The hybrid/Utility/GI in the low irons on tour are so much the norm that it reached over 80% in a number of tournaments this year.

I agree with you JB. Personally I believe that you will see a huge trend of the upcoming PGA players carry more hybrids and less blades. These young guys are catching on to the equipment trends and not hampered by their own experience. Not a negative but they can hit shots with a hybrid they cant with a long iron. What Spieth can do with his hybrid many can't do with a 3 iron blade. Just listen to Justin Rose in video two talking about it being too low.

 

[Trout Bum]

Those videos were awesome, thanks for postong them. Sometimes think the comfortability of playing something you know far outweighs the learning process of something new because of the amount of time it takes some of us to adjust. It certainly creates a lot of thought.

 

[YetiLooper]

It is interesting the dynamic difference between the 2 players. Notice they didn't even bother handing the cavity to Dustin, Justin on the other hand was borderline giddy to try the cavity.

The one thing that really lit the lightbulb for me though is when Dustin talked about how the cavity clubs simply play too long for him. That's for him makes a tremendous amount of sense. He doesn't need the advantage of irons going longer.

It's all so personal, I mean shoot, tiger played his best golf this year by putting his 2 iron back in the bag... some of the young guys think a 2 iron is like sasquatch, a mythical beast that's only been spotted by old rambling crack pots.

 

[YetiLooper]

There is only one way to improve the results with your irons, and that is to become a better striker of the ball. There is a 2 stage process to this. #1 get a coach. #2 practice. Strike the ball better, regardless of what type of club you have in hand and you will score better....fact.

 

[tequila4kapp]

Massive skim here ... One thing about feedback is that it only tells you something about where you mishit the ball, not why you mishit it or how to fix whatever is going on with your swing to produce that result. The whole self diagnosis thing is so hard and (I think) often counter productive for most amateurs because we can't really identify cause and effect.

 

[ArmyGolf]

Those videos were fun to watch, thanks for posting.

 

[robmypro]

Massive skim here ... One thing about feedback is that it only tells you something about where you mishit the ball, not why you mishit it or how to fix whatever is going on with your swing to produce that result. The whole self diagnosis thing is so hard and (I think) often counter productive for most amateurs because we can't really identify cause and effect.

That describes me to a tee. If i hit a shot and it goes left, why did that happen? Alignment? Swing? Poor contact? But that is a very different thing vs. what i originally posted. My main contention was that hitting less forgiving clubs poorly would almost certainly push me towards more lessons. It might also lead to higher concentration levels, which might help.

Again, this was an interesting discussion, and there isn't a right answer. For some people, learning with blades would be effective. We know this is true, because generations of golfers did it that way. They had no choice. Other people might want easier clubs, and then develop their game before attempting something else. I think you can improve regardless of the path you choose, and it's your path. Own it.

For me, i am leaning towards getting a new set, but i will hit some and let that decide. I may also pick up a 6i in something far more challenging, just to practice with. It will be interesting to see what i think after making the decision, and living with it a while. In any case, lessons are going to be a continual part of my progression.

Thanks again everyone for giving your views. I think i heard all sides of this, and see validity in all of them.

 

[tahoebum]

My take from this thread wasn't about why people play better or worse with a design. which may be the case, because the human brain is tricky.

But my point, a blade iron won't tell you what you did wrong in your swing. Just that something went wrong. GI clubs can and do tell you the same information. Neither set will tell you how to fix it.

Wise words from Blugold. Any iron will give feedback, but none will give you cause and effect. This game almost always takes another set of eyes to get better, or for that very small percentage of low index golfers that are self taught, some serious range time to improve. I know wether I hit it thin or fat wether it's a 1968 Wilson Staff or my 2015 Callaway XR's. I think the difference between a forged blade and and GI iron like my Callaway XR's are overblown by the vast majority of golfers. If I went back to my 1980 blades it would increase my index less than a stroke.

 

[YetiLooper]

People learn in different ways, this is a fact, some learn visually, some audibly, some hands on. We are all wired differently. It was interesting with the Dustin Johnson video when hit a shot and said immediately that it felt like he hit a groove too low with the mb iron... we have talked a lot about reading the flight of the ball, but how about knowing how the ball flew based on how the impact felt through your hands. I don't need to see the ball flight to know I hit thin, I don't need to see the flight to know I hit it off the heel or the toe, and with those mishits I know from experience about what kind of battled flight I got before I even see the flight. But that has come from playing for over 30 years and practicing a lot and knowing my swing path. I can tell if I came in too steep or inside out etc... etc... but with all that said I don't think a beginner has that back catalogue of experience to diagnose a swing flaw from feel, or even ball flight. And even if they did know the flaw do they have the mechanical understanding to make the proper adjustment without encouraging a different flaw. Probably not.

 

[tequila4kapp]

i think a lot of golfers learn from feedback much more so than teaching. Most casual golfers I know have never had a formal lesson. Back when the game started there was no one to teach people how to play. They learned through feedback, both positive and negative. If a club can be more or less forgiving, then by definition it has to offer increased or decreased physical and visual feedback. How each person processes that feedback will vary wildly.

Many good athletes/people with good hand-eye coordination/intelligent people can hit golf balls and intuitively figure out what's happening without a coach. Might take some trial and error, but there are lots of good self taught golfers, and the game itself evolved over centuries without teaching pros simply due to feedback and experimentation. I've never paid for instruction in my life--started golfing in 09 and am now a single digit HC because I gradually figured things out through practice and trial and error.

It's not that hard to me. If anyone in this thread is arguing that more forgiving clubs improve the margin of your misses, then you're also essentially arguing that golfers will learn LESS from their misses than they would with a less forgiving club. When a golfer finally realizes the importance of hitting the sweet spot out of necessity, hitting that sweet spot becomes more of a priority than it did when said player could get away more with the same misses with a more forgiving club. It's simple, and easily explains why some people can improve their swing with less forgiving clubs. You make it a priority.

That doesn't mean it's going to be in their best interest, scoring wise, to play less forgiving clubs forever.

I personally find it interesting to spend time in the swing thread where Freddie gives professional advice on people's swings after they post videos. Many people can see non-classic moves and call it out. Some can even suggest certain corrections. Almost nobody suggests the right thing in the right order for the right reason. This is a very disproportionately informed slice of the golf community... they are watching video of someone else's swing and still can't get it right. It is also telling that virtually every touring pro has a swing coach, if not a team of people to help them. They are notorious for helping each other. And many of them now own Trackman or other devices. The best players in the world rely on club feedback less than ever to build and correct their swings. You are the exception - in my opinion a big exception. I'm jealous. I think your mistake may be in minimizing how special your skill set is and inferring others can also do it the same way. This forum is filled with smart former athletes that struggle at the same thing.