Another interesting video, this one Sergio and mishits/feedback with a more forgiving club
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gvSsSzrbc3Y
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gvSsSzrbc3Y
How forgiveness impacts progress
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Blu's a really good guy with real world experience playing multiple styles of clubs and has enough experience to make some valid arguements. Like all of us he believes strongly in his experiences and reults. No need to get $hitty over it.
I didn't mock anybody. The OP asked for opinions on using less forgiving as a means to improvement. I answered and have discussed with a few in here, why I believe the way I do.
The OP doesn't understand ballflights or what his swing tendencies are. Which is OK, there's nothing wrong with that. I have maintained that for him, learning more about his swing will make self diagnosis easier. Without that knowledge, a punishing iron will just be punishing.
I'm not sure what my post count has to do with anything.
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I might not be the ideal person to answer this, since I am on my first full season of golf, but anyhow:
For me going to GI/SGI, Wilson Staff D-200, from Callaway X18 (also GI but 10 years older I guess)have for sure helped my progress. I still slice or hook and top shots at occasion , but I get better result on for example toe hits with my new clubs but still feel when I get it wrong. I also hit the ball longer and often straighter so I am all for keeping it as easy as possible for me. Golf is still hard enough!
For me going to GI/SGI, Wilson Staff D-200, from Callaway X18 (also GI but 10 years older I guess)have for sure helped my progress. I still slice or hook and top shots at occasion , but I get better result on for example toe hits with my new clubs but still feel when I get it wrong. I also hit the ball longer and often straighter so I am all for keeping it as easy as possible for me. Golf is still hard enough!
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I bought a used Titleist 712 MB 6 iron to try when I was playing AP2's. The AP2's were easier to hit, were 5-10 yards longer for me per club, and didn't sting my hands on mis-hits like the MB would. That turned me off of MB style clubs.
I don't see much difference between a GI iron and a players CB style iron (like the AP2's, J15CB's, etc) other than the GI irons tend to carry much longer on average.
I don't see much difference between a GI iron and a players CB style iron (like the AP2's, J15CB's, etc) other than the GI irons tend to carry much longer on average.
I'll throw in my 2 cents. Different people learn in different ways, wether it's calculus or golf. What I do know is that the majority of the scratch golfers I know got there without a lot of help, they dug it out of the ground like it did. That being said, I do think professional help from a PGA pro is for most a much faster path to improvement. I certainly would have embraced lessons from a PGA pro if my parents or I could have afforded it when I took up the game 37 years ago. Then again, maybe I'd be running to an instructor every time my swing went awry instead of knowing how to fix it myself.
Wether you're play blades, GI, or SGI irons, IMO, is not nearly as important as most golfers want to believe. Most bogey golfers waste 10+ shots each round because of poor setup, mental errors, poor pre-shot routine, and not enough putting/short game practice. I guess my main point is most mistakes are already made before the club is swung. Getting a little less or a little more feedback from a particular set of irons is a very small part of the journey to get better at this crazy game we play!!
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So here is something for you to think about. I took my 712 AP2 3i out today and hit is really well. I wonder if my time hitting the Eye 2's somehow helped? Not saying it did, but i wonder now.
YetiLooper
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This is just my opinion here, but the thing I believe would help most higher handicappers the most is simply to just swing the club. What I mean by that is simplify the thought process. Develop a simple repeatable pre shot routine get over the ball, stop thinking and swing. I was chatting with a guy who says he shoots mid 90s and that's the best he's been. He was trying so hard to pick my brain about stance, follow through how long to keep your head down etc...etc... I told him "look man you're over analyzing it" get a good grip, address the ball then just swing. Turn your shoulders back, then through the ball, your hands will find a way and your head will come up on its own at the right time, don't force anything. I don't think gear impacts our score more than 4 strokes a game or so so it's more important that what you play suits your eye and feels good to you. But that's different for everyone. I know i could go out and play a round tomorrow with my muscle backs and my score wouldn't be much different than my cavities, maybe a stroke per side, but I don't lose many strokes due to ball striking with irons, I lose strokes by missing fairways, and not being tight enough inside 50 yards.
To the original premise of this thread as it has veered way off track, no I would not recommend buying harder to hit irons with the idea of it forcing you to take lessons. If you know you need lessons just take the lessons. Play the clubs that suit your game now... always. If and when you get to a point where you think you might benefit from a different setup then think about other clubs, but never to force yourself to do something you already know you need to do.
To the original premise of this thread as it has veered way off track, no I would not recommend buying harder to hit irons with the idea of it forcing you to take lessons. If you know you need lessons just take the lessons. Play the clubs that suit your game now... always. If and when you get to a point where you think you might benefit from a different setup then think about other clubs, but never to force yourself to do something you already know you need to do.
emart2173
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Just my $.02 but I don't think it matters what one practices with if that person is practicing the wrong thing and ingraining bad habits. Many have said knowing the swing and/or how to fix it. I also believe in playing whatever you are most comfortable with and can look at
Wilson Staffer
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I can't help but agree. Every time I play a round with my club pro you can hear his ball spinning violently immediately after impact.....always spinning but always a beautiful ball flight and perfectly shaped. These guys play daily. I play maybe twice a week but I'm happy with where my game is. My irons are massively forgiving and I'm ok with that. Whether or not hey hinder my progress is immaterial tbh.
When did I discount a single real world exoerience? I feel like I've been very consistent. I agreed that less forgiving clubs will be easier to work because of the CG location. If that's what a player feels is holding them back, the increased workability, then yes a less forgiving iron may help them get better. But less forgiving iron will not tell you what you did wrong. Just that something went wrong. A less forgiving iron certainty won't tell you how to fix your flaw.
Tadashi70
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Playing player type irons to improve is counter productive in my opinion. You gain nothing by trying to make the club fit a swing.
That being said, play what ever you want but be prepared for the consequences
That being said, play what ever you want but be prepared for the consequences
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Maybe forcing was the wrong word. Maybe motivation is better. I have a lesson setup for Sunday, so i am not trying to force myself to take them. But if i played something more forgiving, and i shot better with it, would it not be possible that i thought i played well enough not to really need as many lessons? And by struggling more, maybe the need becomes more apparent? It isn't like i am fighting lessons, but the more i struggle, the more i feel i need them. Which is why more challenging irons may ultimately help me become better.
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That is the bottom line, Freddie!
YetiLooper
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I think some people support that it may benefit you. Obviously others disagree, ultimately we have to pick our own path. My suggestion should you decide on less forgiving clubs is don't go all in. If you are currently playing SGI irons don't go straight to blades. Find some used players cavities, or even just some older cavity backs. But definitely don't commit to playing them on the course, keep your current irons so you can always game them. Buy something used.
I totally get where you are coming from, I have a very similar mindset about the game.
How forgiveness impacts progress
Depends on what your goals are for this game. My goal is scratch or very low single digit. No matter what I go out today and shoot, it's probably not going to be that. Even if I shoot crazy well one day and shoot par, that's just once and doesn't make me a scratch player. The drive to get better itself would drive my desire for lessons or improvement.
If you just want to go out and have fun and shoot decently, I still don't see where having forgiving clubs will hinder that or hinder progress. Golf isn't an easy game, and it's not like having forgiving clubs will all of a sudden make it easy either. There are plenty of people on here that can attest to that. When I first got my GI irons I still shot well into the 100's. My scores didn't drop until my set up and swing mechanics got better. The clubs had nothing to do with that other than helping a little on slight mishits.
Depends on what your goals are for this game. My goal is scratch or very low single digit. No matter what I go out today and shoot, it's probably not going to be that. Even if I shoot crazy well one day and shoot par, that's just once and doesn't make me a scratch player. The drive to get better itself would drive my desire for lessons or improvement.
If you just want to go out and have fun and shoot decently, I still don't see where having forgiving clubs will hinder that or hinder progress. Golf isn't an easy game, and it's not like having forgiving clubs will all of a sudden make it easy either. There are plenty of people on here that can attest to that. When I first got my GI irons I still shot well into the 100's. My scores didn't drop until my set up and swing mechanics got better. The clubs had nothing to do with that other than helping a little on slight mishits.
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I appreciate your feedback buddy! Let me ask you this. I was a bit confused yesterday by how well I hit the AP2 3i. Would you say that set is too big of a jump? I am starting to wonder if hitting these Eye 2's has somehow forced me to hit more consistently, and now something like the AP2 seems more forgiving? Is that even possible? I went back and forth with the Eye 2 and AP2 3i, and I just couldn't hit the Eye 2 3i at all. I just couldn't get a lot of really crisp hits with the Eye 2 (maybe 1 in 5, if that), with lots of distance loss, while the AP2 was 4 out of 5 good hits. It seemed almost...automatic?
On the course my iron play is usually not the problem, unless I have uneven lies. I guess I just confused by what happened yesterday. In any case, the Eye 2's are not getting sold.
There was a time when I was on the other side of this debate. A full year of working on my game very hard and taking lessons and still struggling changed my perspective. Take it for what it is worth, but not everyone is capable of digging the answers out of the dirt.
I think the answers to your questions are No and No. People like us - double digit handicappers - shouldn't have much trouble identifying the bad shots or fear being fooled into thinking we're better than we are. Frankly, at our levels there are too many bad shots to go around and the need for improvement is pretty apparent. You will still know that you mishit the ball. You will feel feedback telling you the ball struck a low groove or the toe. You will see the ball's path and will be able to understand the swing flaws. The feedback is still there. The results just aren't as penal, which makes the game more fun while you learn.
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I hear you, CB. I definitely want to get to scratch, and I know that will take lessons. Again, I have another one setup for Sunday. This one is to deal with hitting shots fat, which is my typical miss. I don't have a set amount of lessons I purchased, but more of a casual situation where when i have an issue, I set a lesson up. Maybe that will change, and if I had less success, it probably would.
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It could be something completely different like the shaft weight, swing weight, lie angle, etc. that is making the AP2 produce better shots than the Eye 2's. The age/technology difference between the clubs could also be a factor.
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Not at all and it's a shame that you feel that way because it's far from the truth. There's no favoritism that I see, and when I first started here I thought the same thing until I went to some events and got involved and saw that some of these folks have known Each other for a while and they see each other often at THP events. If you follow any of Blu's posts you'll see that he's not always agreed with by any means lol but he is a part of our family here and we all have each other's back weather we agree or not, I'm a slow learner but that's what THP has taught me. You can get involved and hopefully that perception will change or you won't and the outlook will stay the same, either way there's no hate or aggression, just disagreements sometimes.
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I've been a member for over 2 years now and have been to an event. I was only able to meet JB and Jman from THP staff and both were great guys that seemed very genuine. That being said, there are certain platitudes among several members here. When someone goes against the idea(s) the group of members in question band together (right, wrong, indifferent). Sometimes it is incredibly obvious to those that are looking on objectively that some favoritism occurs. I'm not saying that is the case here, but maybe seeing it elsewhere has made MBBG feel that the same thing is occurring in this thread.
It has happened to me more than once and as recently as a week ago. One member says that an entire group of THP'ers don't deal in reality so I say the info went over his head. Then I'm pounced on and accused of being the bad guy, but the truth is the truth no matter how you try to spin it. Hopefully people can be honest with themselves, recognize that it certainly occurs, and take steps to correct it.
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How forgiveness impacts progress
Enough already. Every technical thread does not need to turn into this. The same 5 people seem to have some issues with others and as we have said it will not be tolerated anymore. Either treat people civilly or move on.
End of discussion. Next issue and we will have to treat this like daycare and send people to time out which seems ridiculous considering all of the awesome going on here right now.
Enough already. Every technical thread does not need to turn into this. The same 5 people seem to have some issues with others and as we have said it will not be tolerated anymore. Either treat people civilly or move on.
End of discussion. Next issue and we will have to treat this like daycare and send people to time out which seems ridiculous considering all of the awesome going on here right now.
i see what you did there
something i've come to realize on any forum i've ever been a part of, or even in my profession where electronic communication is more common than telephone or meetings, words on a screen never communicate as effectively as words spoken. tone is almost always lost.
i'm not sure i track with you on "platitudes." i will, however, agree that the thoughts and opinions of some members carries more weight than that of others. i'll admit to being someone who, in the early stages of my involvement around here, found myself in the minority on many of my opinions. but when i stepped back and realized the place from which those other opinions were coming, a place of a tremendous amount of hard data, experience and the words of the top minds in the industry, that i began adjusting my opinions. that's something i will forever be grateful for.
one other thing to note is that just because someone stops responding to a discussion doesn't mean they are admitting that they are incorrect. sometimes it just ceases being worth the time to continue the back-and-forth when nothing further can be gained and no resolution is to be found.
seacrest out
Wicked Cool Bearded Man
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How forgiveness impacts progress
I'll weigh in here as I've been a wicked good lurker lately. I have actually had both experiences. When I first started playing, I had a cavity back set of Titleist DCI's. I didn't play often or well. Moving forward 10 years I bought a set of Ping Zing irons. I improved dramatically. Then I started improving and playing more blade like irons in relative progression until I gamed the Ping S56 irons and ultimately the Callaway RAZR x muscle backs courtesy of the Morgan Cup 2012. I hit all of them well and settled in as a mid single digit player. Last year, out of fear of not playing as frequently I ordered the Srixon 545 irons courtesy of the Morgan Cup 2014. So, a small step in the other direction. I loved the 545's, but I will say, because of launch and spin, my misses we not as predictable as my misses were with the blades or blade like sets. In effect, my scores got worse. Now could I have gamed them longer and become more comfortable with those misses? Maybe. Either way, I chose to go back to my comfort zone with the 945's . My scores have returned to where they were. To each his own. Freddie said it best, no matter what you choose, there will be consequences. It's what consequences can you live/play with. Hopefully the choice you make leads to better scores for YOU
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I'll weigh in here as I've been a wicked good lurker lately. I have actually had both experiences. When I first started playing, I had a cavity back set of Titleist DCI's. I didn't play often or well. Moving forward 10 years I bought a set of Ping Zing irons. I improved dramatically. Then I started improving and playing more blade like irons in relative progression until I gamed the Ping S56 irons and ultimately the Callaway RAZR x muscle backs courtesy of the Morgan Cup 2012. I hit all of them well and settled in as a mid single digit player. Last year, out of fear of not playing as frequently I ordered the Srixon 545 irons courtesy of the Morgan Cup 2014. So, a small step in the other direction. I loved the 545's, but I will say, because of launch and spin, my misses we not as predictable as my misses were with the blades or blade like sets. In effect, my scores got worse. Now could I have gamed them longer and become more comfortable with those misses? Maybe. Either way, I chose to go back to my comfort zone with the 945's . My scores have returned to where they were. To each his own. Freddie said it best, no matter what you choose, there will be consequences. It's what consequences can you live/play with. Hopefully the choice you make leads to better scores for YOU
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