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Westwood Attacks PGA Tour

We'll see? Those guys mentioned will play their fair share, they hold both memberships do they not?

Difference of opinion "makes the world go round". I do agree with you on the most part, it is VERY early days & time will tell. Just highlighting the fact that the Euro Tour is no longer "Micky Mouse", complacency can not creep in on your side of the pond. (Gotta be good for you guys too!!!)
 
I once again will have to disagree with you and take slight offense to your generalization. I never said one bad thing about Westwood and trust me I have my opinions. I wanted to know the facts before forming an opinion and I clearly stated that I can see both sides of the argument. If you want my personal opinion I think that Rickie did deserve to win because he is a true rookie if the definition was first year playing on tour. I do understand that the rules state otherwise but the fact that McIlroy has been playing at a professional level since 2007 makes it hard for me to think of him as a rookie. I absolutely think he is a stellar player and deserves to be recognized for his play on tour. However, I struggle to compare him to a guy who is in his first year and who is also putting up some very impressive stats.

No matter what anyone says, though, it's going to be a nasty debate and a battle that will continue because everyone has their patriotic pride, as they should, so there really will be no winning of this argument. This is of course all my opinion and my opinion only. But please do not generalize what all Americans think because that's just not fair or right.

EDIT: I just want to add that my opinion actually has NOTHING to do with the country I live in or the country Rory lives in. For me it's about the definition of a rookie and my thoughts on what should be considered a true rookie. I am actually a pretty big Rory fan and even have a picture that I took with him a few years ago hanging in my office.

Putty Man said:
For anyone just joining us, can I quickly summarise this thread for you..

Lee Westwood gives out stink because Rory McIlroy didnt win US PGA Rookie of the year.
Americans get annoyed and say he shouldn't be eligible.
We check and he is eligible.
Americans say Lee Westwood is no good anyway cos he hasn't won a major.
...
yada yada yada
...
Age old, predictable, 'whos tour is best' argument ensues.

At the end of the day, Rory didnt win as the US PGA tour players are protecting themselves.

Lee may not have one a major, but he, and every other golfer on earth, knows this is the case.
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I am surprised he is not crying about Jim being crowned PLAYER OF THE YEAR!! I can hear it now, It should be ME, or G-Mac or Rory, maybe Poulter.. Someone who does not play YOUR tour but I drink beer with!!! Get a clue, Rory is not a rookie... Another beer here mate??
 
Putty Man said:
For anyone just joining us, can I quickly summarise this thread for you..

Lee Westwood gives out stink because Rory McIlroy didnt win US PGA Rookie of the year.
Americans get annoyed and say he shouldn't be eligible.
We check and he is eligible.
Americans say Lee Westwood is no good anyway cos he hasn't won a major.
...
yada yada yada
...
Age old, predictable, 'whos tour is best' argument ensues.

At the end of the day, Rory didnt win as the US PGA tour players are protecting themselves.

Lee may not have one a major, but he, and every other golfer on earth, knows this is the case.
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Wow is all I can say to that. That is really a kind of rude post. Americans this and that. Nobody has said ANYTHING about American or not except you actually. I never brought up Rory being from somewhere else. I brought up him not being a rookie. You have absolutely NO facts to say why or why not someone voted the way they did.

The truth is, it is a flawed system. People may have voted for Rickie for that reason. They also may have voted for Rickie because he is actually a rookie. You are generalizing a topic and yet you are the only one that seems to bring Patriotism into this.
 
GolferGal said:
I once again will have to disagree with you and take slight offense to your generalization. I never said one bad thing about Westwood and trust me I have my opinions. I wanted to know the facts before forming an opinion and I clearly stated that I can see both sides of the argument. If you want my personal opinion I think that Rickie did deserve to win because he is a true rookie if the definition was first year playing on tour. I do understand that the rules state otherwise but the fact that McIlroy has been playing at a professional level since 2007 makes it hard for me to think of him as a rookie. I absolutely think he is a stellar player and deserves to be recognized for his play on tour. However, I struggle to compare him to a guy who is in his first year and who is also putting up some very impressive stats.

No matter what anyone says, though, it's going to be a nasty debate and a battle that will continue because everyone has their patriotic pride, as they should, so there really will be no winning of this argument. This is of course all my opinion and my opinion only. But please do not generalize what all Americans think because that's just not fair or right.
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Apologies GolferGal, I did make a sweeping generalisation, and thats unfair.

In my defence it was a bit tounge in cheek, merely pointing out what started as a valid discussion, had turned into the usual US vs Euro slaggin match.
 
Jkwakopo said:
I agree rory played 3 years for Europe PGA tour. Rickie was in classes last year lol
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In defense though, other players have come from a couple seasons on the the Euro tour to win PGA ROY award later.
 
I hate that it has to come to that. I added something to my post after you responded but basically it says that I don't see why this has to be a US vs. Euro thing. Instead it should be a debate about the system. For me I would have picked Rickie because my definition and belief of what a rookie would not qualify Rory to even be a nominee.

I don't look at a player and think American or Euro I have never picked my favorite based on that. Maybe that makes me a bad American? I don't know but for me it's always been about the person and their play on the course not about where they were born.

Putty Man said:
Apologies GolferGal, I did make a sweeping generalisation, and thats unfair.


In my defence it was a bit tounge in cheek, merely pointing out what started as a valid discussion, had turned into the usual US vs Euro slaggin match.
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interlooper said:
In defense though, other players have come from a couple seasons on the the Euro tour to win PGA ROY award later.
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In my opinion that isn't right. I would say the same thing if an American played 3 years on the PGA Tour and then because the Euro tour POY. I just don't think it should be based on first year on that tour but rather first year as a professional.
 
GolferGal said:
I hate that it has to come to that. I added something to my post after you responded but basically it says that I don't see why this has to be a US vs. Euro thing. Instead it should be a debate about the system. For me I would have picked Rickie because my definition and belief of what a rookie would not qualify Rory to even be a nominee.

I don't look at a player and think American or Euro I have never picked my favorite based on that. Maybe that makes me a bad American? I don't know but for me it's always been about the person and their play on the course not about where they were born.
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That is the funniest part about this. I think collectively we dislike dealing with far more American golfers than Euro golfers. HA! But there are always a few on every tour....HA!

The system stinks. Martin Kaymer being able to be possibly #1 in the world could come over here and win ROY next year. Ummm Flawed!
 
GolferGal said:
In my opinion that isn't right. I would say the same thing if an American played 3 years on the PGA Tour and then because the Euro tour POY. I just don't think it should be based on first year on that tour but rather first year as a professional.
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I agree that it probably shouldn't be that way, but, as of right now, it is. I think both Fowler and Rory are deserving (under the current standards), but I would have voted Rory if I was a player with an opportunity to vote. But then again, I may have also voiced my opinion on the standards of who is considered a rookie.
 
I think the reason there is a controversy to begin with is the rules are so murky. If RM played 11 PGA Tour events in 2009 why was he listed as a nominee to begin with?

If in fact he was eligible for ROY, since he was a nominee (though I don't see how), then he should have won.

The PGA Tour may want to clarify the rules as what makes a rookie.
 
GolferGal said:
OK here is some more info on the facts from http://www.examiner.com/golf-in-nat...g-to-new-level-and-rookie-fowler-catches-flak

“Rookie year is defined as the year in which he becomes a PGA TOUR member (including special temporary member) and plays in 10 or more events as a member OR finishes in the top 125 as a member on the official PGA TOUR money list, whichever comes first,” according to a tour spokesperson. “[McIlroy] earned his TOUR card for 2010 by finishing in the top 125 as a non-member.”
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Sean said:
I think the reason there is a controversy to begin with is the rules are so murky. If RM played 11 PGA Tour events in 2009 why was he listed as a nominee to begin with?

If in fact he was eligible for ROY, since he was a nominee (though I don't see how), then he should have won.

The PGA Tour may want to clarify the rules as what makes a rookie.
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See above. Rory is considered a rookie by the PGA's definition. However, as I have stated I don't think that's what a rookie should be labeled as but that is just my feelings on the subject.
 
A little off topic, but oil money making the Euro Tour more appealing has been brought up. Are the oil money Middle Easternererers paying appearance money to make the Euros "loyal" to their own tour?

Just wondering.

Kevin
 
GolferGal said:
I hate that it has to come to that. I added something to my post after you responded but basically it says that I don't see why this has to be a US vs. Euro thing. Instead it should be a debate about the system. For me I would have picked Rickie because my definition and belief of what a rookie would not qualify Rory to even be a nominee.

I don't look at a player and think American or Euro I have never picked my favorite based on that. Maybe that makes me a bad American? I don't know but for me it's always been about the person and their play on the course not about where they were born.
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TBH GolferGal while that certainly does not make you a bad American, I'd say your in the minority by not letting nationality have an influence on your preferences. I'd be lying if I said I was that fair!

On the eligibility thing, I agree that the system is a bit unfair. Another system could be even worse tho. Eg restricting it to a players first year as a pro, that basically discounts the vast majority of golfers. Maybe restricting it to the first year you play an event on the PGA tour, that would lean very heavily towards US based players who use this as their main tour.

I'm sure the powers that be could ocme up with a better system than currently exists tho for sure.

Rewinding the whole thing back, Westwood was givin out about McIlroy not being ROY. Allowing that he was eligible and a nominee, I personallly agree with that and honestly can't see how anyone could argue IMO.
 
Putty Man said:
On the eligibility thing, I agree that the system is a bit unfair. Another system could be even worse tho. Eg restricting it to a players first year as a pro, that basically discounts the vast majority of golfers. Maybe restricting it to the first year you play an event on the PGA tour, that would lean very heavily towards US based players who use this as their main tour.

Rewinding the whole thing back, Westwood was givin out about McIlroy not being ROY. Allowing that he was eligible and a nominee, I personallly agree with that and honestly can't see how anyone could argue IMO.
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I guess I just dont see what nationality has to do with it? Not to most PGA Tour fans that I know. Nationality never came up in the discussion until you brought it up.

As for the elgibility, its ROY, its not supposed to be opened up to a large amount of golfers. Only rookies. Under their current rules, Martin Kaymer would be a rookie next year if he chose to play on the PGA Tour.

I have an honest question for you. Or list of questions.

1. Would Westwood have spoken up if Rickie was Euro and Rory was American?
2. Would you care one way or another if both players were American?
3. Since they base tour "lists" on money earned and publish teh official money list, should that not play any factor?
4. Isnt it possible that many of the voters looked at the list and said "that guys not a rookie"?
 
Putty Man said:
Rewinding the whole thing back, Westwood was givin out about McIlroy not being ROY. Allowing that he was eligible and a nominee, I personallly agree with that and honestly can't see how anyone could argue IMO.
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Because he had a lot of experience with professional events around the world and on the PGA. Fowler came right out of qualifying school to the tour. Since the players on the tour voted, they thought that Fowler's accomplishments were more impressive.
 
JB said:
Wow is all I can say to that. That is really a kind of rude post. Americans this and that. Nobody has said ANYTHING about American or not except you actually. I never brought up Rory being from somewhere else. I brought up him not being a rookie. You have absolutely NO facts to say why or why not someone voted the way they did.

The truth is, it is a flawed system. People may have voted for Rickie for that reason. They also may have voted for Rickie because he is actually a rookie. You are generalizing a topic and yet you are the only one that seems to bring Patriotism into this.
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I had replied to this with an apology and an attempt to explain my dry, sarcastic excuse for humour. But I couldn't post it as the thread was locked, and now its dissappeared to the land of old Ctrl-C's.

So apologies for the offence caused, I really didnt mean to sound rude.

I persoanlly think that the players voted for Fowler because McIroy didn't take his card for next year. But whether true or not, it will unfortuneately cast a shadow over the award in many peoples eyes.
 
Sean said:
I think Fowler played three Tour events in 2009.
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With sponsor exemptions or with his Amateur status. He was not a member of any professional tour.
 
Putty Man said:
I had replied to this with an apology and an attempt to explain my dry, sarcastic excuse for humour. But I couldn't post it as the thread was locked, and now its dissappeared to the land of old Ctrl-C's.

So apologies for the offence caused, I really didnt mean to sound rude.

I persoanlly think that the players voted for Fowler because McIroy didn't take his card for next year. But whether true or not, it will unfortuneately cast a shadow over the award in many peoples eyes.
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Thank you. Tone is so hard to tell in posts. Its great debate and discussion like this that opens the door and eyes for many. I love hearing thoughts from both sides.
 
I bet Rickie would have rather won a tourney than won ROY.
 
JB said:
I guess I just dont see what nationality has to do with it? Not to most PGA Tour fans that I know. Nationality never came up in the discussion until you brought it up.

As for the elgibility, its ROY, its not supposed to be opened up to a large amount of golfers. Only rookies. Under their current rules, Martin Kaymer would be a rookie next year if he chose to play on the PGA Tour.

I have an honest question for you. Or list of questions.

1. Would Westwood have spoken up if Rickie was Euro and Rory was American?
2. Would you care one way or another if both players were American?
3. Since they base tour "lists" on money earned and publish teh official money list, should that not play any factor?
4. Isnt it possible that many of the voters looked at the list and said "that guys not a rookie"?
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1. I don't think so, Lee Westwood sounds quite parochial to me, maybe even anti-PGA tour.
2. I would certainly care a little less, but I would still find the situation interesting.
3. Definetly should, and I would say that was probably a big factor for the players who voted.
4. I honestly don't think so.

The Kaymer scenario is a good point. But some might say, that if he took a US PGA card in 2012, that that would be his rookie year. Not a rookie golfer, or a rookie touring pro, but still a rookie US PGA tour card holder?

I suppose you have to draw the rookie line somewhere, but where to draw it is not an easy decision.
 
Putty Man said:
1. I don't think so, Lee Westwood sounds quite parochial to me, maybe even anti-PGA tour.
2. I would certainly care a little less, but I would still find the situation interesting.
3. Definetly should, and I would say that was probably a big factor for the players who voted.
4. I honestly don't think so.

The Kaymer scenario is a good point. But some might say, that if he took a US PGA card in 2012, that that would be his rookie year. Not a rookie golfer, or a rookie touring pro, but still a rookie US PGA tour card holder?

I suppose you have to draw the rookie line somewhere, but where to draw it is not an easy decision.
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This is exactly the issue. Im not sure anybody knows, but if I had a vote, it would be rookie golfer over what they have now. But I think a great number would be 6 events.
 
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