2010 HSBC Women's Champions [spoilers]

[NikeGolf]

HAHAHA! NG makes another friend!

You think I care?

I'm not like you. I don't strive for everyone to love me.

 

[Smallville]

You bet.

And, I know, JB, that a lot of golf fans, and particularily of the LPGA, want to almost ignore the big elephant in the room (about the Korean/Japanese girls) and basically only talk about the Wie's, the Creamer's, the Gulbis's, the Patterson's, etc etc.

I am sorry, but this was just driving me crazy. Her name is Suzann Petterson, not Patterson. Also, she is from Norway.

I'm well aware of where she's from. And, try to forgive me for being a letter off on the name. It won't happen again.

Actually, it's "Pettersen." So you're two letters off! hehehe

And sorry soxy, I guess I'm teasing you as well!

 

[JB]

I'm well aware of where she's from. And, try to forgive me for being a letter off on the name. It won't happen again.

And, for the most part, I agree w/ what you said. However, if they aren't American, I just believe that it's going to be hard for the average person to "connect" and/or get interested in the LPGA.

This really hasn't been argued. The LPGA knows and is well aware of that issue.

By the way, Suzann is not American. Neither was Annika.

 

[NikeGolf]

By the way, Suzann is not American. Neither was Annika.

JB, I know.

I always knew. It might have come across that I was saying she was American, but no, I wasn't.

I correlated her w/ the American look. With the whole white skin and the blonde hair thing going on.

Versus the shorter, smaller, and darker counterparts across the pond.

 

[JB]

JB, I know.

I always knew. It might have come across that I was saying she was American, but no, I wasn't.

I correlated her w/ the American look. With the whole white skin and the blonde hair thing going on.

Versus the shorter, smaller, and darker counterparts across the pond.

So is it a race thing? Im not starting with you or getting into race, just curious. Because its ironic, but many said the same thing about Tiger Woods when he came out. That he would not be accepted by the older mans "club" because of his look.

 

[Diane]

Are the shorts shorter at the Asian venues? They seem shorter.

Kevin

I agree Kevin. They did seem shorter to me too.

 

[NikeGolf]

So is it a race thing? Im not starting with you or getting into race, just curious. Because its ironic, but many said the same thing about Tiger Woods when he came out. That he would not be accepted by the older mans "club" because of his look.

BTW - I went back and edited the post from last night. I did a bad job saying what I meant.

Anyway.

I don't want to get into race either, but like I said, it's the big pink elephant in the room. The LPGA leaderboards are filled w/ Asian girls. I, in no way is saying that's wrong or bad, I'm just saying that for the casual fan, that's not going to turn them on. That's not going to get young girls interested in golf. I also believe it's turned fans off.

The LGPA itself knows that. You know darn well that they want some more American girls (or American looking) in there contending every week and winning. You know sponsors do to.

Like I said, I hate to bring race into it, but yes, I believe it's got to do w/ race. If it's just a handful of asian players in contention, then we might have a different issue. But every week and every tournament the top 20 on the leaderboard is AT LEAST half filled w/ asian girls.

Like I said, I don't mind it, nor do I think anything is wrong w/ it. I just want to see some good golf.

But, I believe it's hurting American interest in the LPGA.

Look at the plight of the LPGA in the last couple of years to get a gauge on that.

 

[NikeGolf]

About Tiger.

Trust me. Theres still are plenty of people who don't like him because of "what" he is. I have seen and heard plenty to know that that's true.

Main difference w/ Tiger and the asians in the LPGA is that Tiger is ONE MAN. He can consistently beat most guys he comes across, and for that, he has earned the respect of most, decent golf fans.

The asian girls are just all over the LPGA. One week it's Miyazato, the next it's Park, the week after that, it's another asian girl.

 

[JB]

And while I agree to some extent, they said the same thing about Tiger Woods when he was making his entrance on the tour. Is it the same, no. But charisma brings in people more than anything else. Outside of that it is dominance. If they can find someone that has both, they will do fine no matter where they are from.

 

[NikeGolf]

And while I agree to some extent, they said the same thing about Tiger Woods when he was making his entrance on the tour. Is it the same, no. But charisma brings in people more than anything else. Outside of that it is dominance. If they can find someone that has both, they will do fine no matter where they are from.

Absolutely.

But, my rebuttal to that is that no ONE asian player is dominating. They're just simply all over the place!

Look at L. Ochoa. She's a perfect example of many American people liking her. I do as well. I root for her. She's ONE woman who is (usually) consistently good and one who wins enough, and in big enough tournaments, to where she is remembered and well known. She can also speak english. She also doesn't come from a place far out over the ocean.

It's still obvious to me, however, that there needs to be an American (yes, total American, not one who looks American, just American) woman to get to that "great" level. That's how you get remembered and reverred as a star.

Tiger got to that level within two years of being on tour.

It's just hard for the average person to relate to a girl who doesn't look like we do. Or talk like we do. Or who grew up like we did.

It's also hard being a fan of someone like that as well.

 

[JB]

Absolutely. I agree 100%.

But, my rebuttal to that is that no ONE asian player is dominating. They're just simply all over the place!

Look at L. Ochoa. She's a perfect example of many American people liking her. I do as well. I root for her. She's ONE woman who is (usually) consistently good and one who wins enough, and in big enough tournaments, to where she is remembered and well known.

It's still obvious to me, however, that there needs to be an American (yes, total American, not one who looks American, just American) woman to get to that "great" level. That's how you get remembered and reverred as a star.

Tiger got to that level within two years of being on tour.

It's just hard for the average person to relate to a girl who doesn't look like we do. Or talk like we do. Or who grew up like we did.

It's also hard being a fan of someone like that as well.

I agree with a lot of what you say. But there is a dominating player in 2010 that is Asian. She has won 2 weeks in a row. Yet because it is over there with "virtually" no coverage over here (meaning live) it gets no attention.

But that could change. They need someone with charisma to dominate and that is the main issue with Ochoa. I like her, but the casual fan will not tune in to see her dominate. They have proven that with their viewing. Many consider her "boring". Like I said, I like her.

I have said this before and will again, if they would make these courses slightly longer for them and make them slightly harder, the cream would rise to the top and you would see the best players at the leaderboard each week rather than "anybody" at the top each week. The rough was rarely penalizing last year and it setup for everybody to play the same game. That needs to be changed to show the best players off.

What they need is Michelle Wie to be dominant or a player like her if they want the casual fan to get involved. Its a name they know, sponsored by a brand they know.

 

[NikeGolf]

I agree with a lot of what you say. But there is a dominating player in 2010 that is Asian. She has won 2 weeks in a row. Yet because it is over there with "virtually" no coverage over here (meaning live) it gets no attention.

But that could change. They need someone with charisma to dominate and that is the main issue with Ochoa. I like her, but the casual fan will not tune in to see her dominate. They have proven that with their viewing. Many consider her "boring". Like I said, I like her.

I have said this before and will again, if they would make these courses slightly longer for them and make them slightly harder, the cream would rise to the top and you would see the best players at the leaderboard each week rather than "anybody" at the top each week. The rough was rarely penalizing last year and it setup for everybody to play the same game. That needs to be changed to show the best players off.

What they need is Michelle Wie to be dominant or a player like her if they want the casual fan to get involved. Its a name they know, sponsored by a brand they know.

Agreed.

Yes, the Japanese Miyazato has won two weeks in a row, but I would hardly call that dominating. She won only once last year. She's got a ways to go to where she will be considered a "great" one. But, I digress.

I agree w/ what you're saying, however. Look, I like the LPGA. It almost surprises me, but I do. (Sexist is such a strong word to use) I attended the women's 2008 US Open up here in Chaska, MN. I enjoyed it immensely.

Remember who won it? Hell, I barely do! Inbee Park.

You think the sponsors and the tour were happy about that? She needed an interpreter in the interviews.

Hell, the LPGA was going to mandate that the tour players must know english! Which I disagreed with, BTW. To me, that move showed me that the LPGA was both catering to sponsors who weren't thrilled their money was going to a woman who couldn't speak english, and possibly stopping the flow of so many Asian players who were and are dominating the sport.

I can imagine what kind of message that sent to some of the asian players.

About the courses. I also agree wholeheartedly.

 

[JB]

Agreed.


Remember who won it? Hell, I barely do! Inbee Park.

You think the sponsors and the tour were happy about that? She needed an interpreter in the interviews.

By the way, didnt that same thing happen in the PGA last year at their championship?

 

[NikeGolf]

By the way, didnt that same thing happen in the PGA last year at their championship?

haha. I never even thought of that......... unil now!

(BTW, I made it up for that one to. However, I wasn't there on the final day. Oh, and it was on a different course. Didn't know if you knew that or not.)

You can even make a similar case that the sponsors and a lot of folks weren't too thrilled that Yang won that as well.

But, really, what can you do?

Is the LPGA supposed to ban asian players? Obviously, no.

The final thought on it is that some American girls need to step up and start winning some tournaments.

That's the bottom line.

 

[Hanks]

I agree with a lot of what you say. But there is a dominating player in 2010 that is Asian. She has won 2 weeks in a row. Yet because it is over there with "virtually" no coverage over here (meaning live) it gets no attention.

But that could change. They need someone with charisma to dominate and that is the main issue with Ochoa. I like her, but the casual fan will not tune in to see her dominate. They have proven that with their viewing. Many consider her "boring". Like I said, I like her.

I have said this before and will again, if they would make these courses slightly longer for them and make them slightly harder, the cream would rise to the top and you would see the best players at the leaderboard each week rather than "anybody" at the top each week. The rough was rarely penalizing last year and it setup for everybody to play the same game. That needs to be changed to show the best players off.

What they need is Michelle Wie to be dominant or a player like her if they want the casual fan to get involved. Its a name they know, sponsored by a brand they know.

Well said JB :clapp:

 

[soxngolf]

Are the shorts shorter at the Asian venues? They seem shorter.

Kevin

I think that is a trend that we will see this year, regardless of where they are!

I correlated her w/ the American look. With the whole white skin and the blonde hair thing going on.

Versus the shorter, smaller, and darker counterparts across the pond.

I don't want to get into race either, but like I said, it's the big pink elephant in the room. The LPGA leaderboards are filled w/ Asian girls. I, in no way is saying that's wrong or bad, I'm just saying that for the casual fan, that's not going to turn them on. That's not going to get young girls interested in golf. I also believe it's turned fans off.

The LGPA itself knows that. You know darn well that they want some more American girls (or American looking) in there contending every week and winning. You know sponsors do to.

I am just curious which category you put Michelle Wie in? You say they need women who are "American" looking? So that is blond hair, blue eyes like Suzann? What about Michelle, she looks like the Asian players, but obviously the sponsors are hoping she will emerge as one of the best. Where does she fall into the "American" look?

It's still obvious to me, however, that there needs to be an American (yes, total American, not one who looks American, just American) woman to get to that "great" level. That's how you get remembered and reverred as a star.

JB had a great point earlier. Annika is the most "remembered" female golfer ever. She isn't American.

 

[NikeGolf]

I am just curious which category you put Michelle Wie in? You say they need women who are "American" looking? So that is blond hair, blue eyes like Suzann? What about Michelle, she looks like the Asian players, but obviously the sponsors are hoping she will emerge as one of the best. Where does she fall into the "American" look?

JB had a great point earlier. Annika is the most "remembered" female golfer ever. She isn't American.

Michelle Wie is American. That's the category she goes in. She may not have the traditional "American" look, but she's still American. I guess there is no other way to "categorize" that.

I never disagreed that the most remembered and/or the best female golfer of all time is Annika. I also realize she isn't American. However, she's got the white skin and blonde hair, right? She also speaks english, no?

 

[JB]

Michelle Wie is American. That's the category she goes in. She may not have the traditional "American" look, but she's still American. I guess there is no other way to "categorize" that.

I never disagreed that the most remembered and/or the best female golfer of all time is Annika. I also realize she isn't American. However, she's got the white skin and blonde hair, right? She also speaks english, no?

She speaks with an accent. But I am confused here, do you want the American or the look of an American? I gotta tell you, I disagree pretty strongly on it. Because there are plenty of American players that will not bring the casual fan in. Just like there are plenty of foreign players that will bring them in. Its about charisma and dominance.

 

[NikeGolf]

She speaks with an accent. But I am confused here, do you want the American or the look of an American? I gotta tell you, I disagree pretty strongly on it. Because there are plenty of American players that will not bring the casual fan in. Just like there are plenty of foreign players that will bring them in. Its about charisma and dominance.

I'll scrap the American and/or non American stuff. (BTW - I love Annika's accent)

I agree, it's about charisma, charm and dominance. I agree w/ that all the way.

BUT, it's also about the average person being able to relate to them in a way.

How can someone who doesn't speak our language, doesn't share our customs and/or beliefs, and who doesn't look like we do get hundreds of thousands excited about LPGA golf?

They simply cannot. That's the truth of it.

 

[JB]

I'll scrap the American and/or non American stuff.

I agree, it's about charisma, charm and dominance. I agree w/ that all the way.

BUT, it's also about the average person being able to relate to them in a way.

How can someone who doesn't speak our language, doesn't share our customs and/or beliefs, and who doesn't look like we do get hundreds of thousandds excited about LPGA golf?

They simply cannot. That's the truth of it.

But Annika did just that. She was not an American and did have an accent. This has happened in sports for decades. Why is it different for the LPGA than the PGA? Yang won and nobody said it was bad for golf. He does not speak the language and won a major. The US likes dominance or they like charisma. It makes no difference where they are from for the most part. Charisma is more important than anything as Lorena Ochoa is teaching us.

Its clear it is a language thing for you, because looks such as Michelle Wie, and others do not bother you as much or you do not believe they are an issue. And while the language can be an issue, if that person is dominant, it will not matter.

 

[NikeGolf]

But Annika did just that. She was not an American and did have an accent. This has happened in sports for decades. Why is it different for the LPGA than the PGA? Yang won and nobody said it was bad for golf. He does not speak the language and won a major. The US likes dominance or they like charisma. It makes no difference where they are from for the most part. Charisma is more important than anything as Lorena Ochoa is teaching us.

Its clear it is a language thing for you, because looks such as Michelle Wie, and others do not bother you as much or you do not believe they are an issue. And while the language can be an issue, if that person is dominant, it will not matter.

No, the language is just a part of it. It's not strictly a language thing at all. Like I said. Language, customs/beliefs, and appearence.

Keep in mind, I personally don't mind who's winning in the LPGA tour. I even stated that I disagreed w/ the LGPA wanting to mandate its players to know english. I like to watch good golf, period.

Michelle Wie is simply a wild card. She's American. She might not have a "traditional" American look to her, but, she's still American.

My main, and really only point is that the American girls need to step up and start winning tournaments. For both the sake of the LGPA to GET new fans, and to KEEP some of the current fans. You can say the same things about the sponsors. I don't see how that can be argued. It's the way it is.

And if the PGA Tour's leaderboard was half filled w/ asian players, I guarantee you that the men's Tour would be having the same problems as the women's tour.

 

[JB]

No, the language is just a part of it. It's not strictly a language thing at all. Like I said. Language, customs/beliefs, and appearence.

Keep in mind, I personally don't mind who's winning in the LPGA tour. I even stated that I disagreed w/ the LGPA wanting to mandate its players to know english. I like to watch good golf, period.

Michelle Wie is simply a wild card. She's American. She might not have a "traditional" American look to her, but, she's still American.

My main, and really only point is that the American girls need to step up and start winning tournaments. For both the sake of the LGPA to GET new fans, and to KEEP some of the current fans. You can say the same things about the sponsors. I don't see how that can be argued. It's the way it is.

And if the PGA Tour's leaderboard was half filled w/ asian players, I guarantee you that the men's Tour would be having the same problems as the women's tour.

Yet one of the brightest young stars on the PGA that everybody is talking about is Ryo. But I dont think you just mean Americans or people that look and sound like Americans. Becuase they are there in the leaderboard each week. Christie kerr is there? And has been there for 2 years straight. Is she not the prototypical American? I think you mean attractive golfers in general, or those that you find attractive. Creamer, Gulbis, etc...The reality is, that female sports for some reason or another will always be fringe sports to casual sports fans. With the exception of tennis in certain eras, they always have and always will be. Its a shame, but it is what it is.

 

[NikeGolf]

Yet one of the brightest young stars on the PGA that everybody is talking about is Ryo. But I dont think you just mean Americans or people that look and sound like Americans. Becuase they are there in the leaderboard each week. Christie kerr is there? And has been there for 2 years straight. Is she not the prototypical American? I think you mean attractive golfers in general, or those that you find attractive. Creamer, Gulbis, etc...The reality is, that female sports for some reason or another will always be fringe sports to casual sports fans. With the exception of tennis in certain eras, they always have and always will be. Its a shame, but it is what it is.

Ya know, I was going to bring Kerr up. I had it written down and everything, but I didn't want to lengthen my last post any. Kerr is literally about the only American who is consistently in the top 10. I was actually going to use your exact words about being there for two years straight now.

Look, you're shoving me into a corner that I'm doing everything I can to stay out of.

My points aren't made because I feel that way personally. Because, I'm going to be a fan of the LPGA no matter what. My points are made based on what I think the LGPA needs to be more successful and to garner more attention and thusly, more fans.

My points are based on what I believe the average, casual person is thinking. And the struggles of the LPGA Tour back me up on that.

About women's sports. Yes, I agree w/ what you're saying. I also agree that that bad attitude toward's women's sports will always hurt women's sports. I agree w/ that.

I also agree that for that reason alone, the LPGA will never be as big as it COULD be. However, I believe it COULD be quite a bit more successful and profitable for everyone IF we see some American girls up top of that leaderboard!

And hey, not to bring up another big ol' pink elephant again, but let's not kid ourselves. Having good looking women athletes, no matter what country they're from, is ALWAYS going to garner attention.

And for the LPGA, just about ANY attention, is a good thing.

 

[JB]

Ya know, I was going to bring Kerr up. I had it written down and everything, but I didn't want to lengthen my last post any. Kerr is literally about the only American who is consistently in the top 10. I was actually going to use your exact words about being there for two years straight now.

Look, you're shoving me into a corner that I'm doing everything I can to stay out of.

My points aren't made because I feel that way personally. Because, I'm going to be a fan of the LPGA no matter what. My points are made based on what I think the LGPA needs to be more successful and to garner more attention and thusly, more fans.

My points are based on what I believe the average, casual person is thinking. And the struggles of the LPGA Tour back me up on that.

About women's sports. Yes, I agree w/ what you're saying. I also agree that that bad attitude toward's women's sports will always hurt women's sports. I agree w/ that.

I also agree that for that reason alone, the LPGA will never be as big as it COULD be. However, I believe it COULD be quite a bit more successful and profitable for everyone IF we see some American girls up top of that leaderboard!

And hey, not to bring up another big ol' pink elephant again, but let's not kid ourselves. Having good looking women athletes, no matter what country they're from, is ALWAYS going to garner attention.

And for the LPGA, just about ANY attention, is a good thing.

Im not trying to back anybody in a corner, just saying that for years, the facts went against your thoughts.

Annika is foreign with an accent and dominated the LPGA for a decade.
Michelle Wie is American but does not "look" it and is the biggest draw out there.
YE Yang won the PGA and does not speak the language and it did not hurt the ratings.
I just disagree that we need good looking American women to have men watch. We need dominance and we need Charisma. Would a Natalie Gulbis being dominant be better for ratings than that of Ai Miyazato? Very likely, but here is a small stat for you.

Anna Kournikova was a good tennis player until she reached the professional ranks. She was then a sideshow. Her matches did not garner any more in ratings after the 1st 6 months than that of other players. So looks only go so far.

Look at the big draws on the PGA Tour according to TGC.
Tiger - Dominance
Phil - Dominating + Train Wreck
JD - Train Wreck and Charisma
Sergio - Train Wreck

People tune in for different reasons. Tiger does not look like the average golfer. Sergio is not American and heck not even liked. In my opinion it is about showcasing talent and the LPGA has done a poor job of that by trying to showcase just how good ALL of these girls are rather than making the courses harder and letting the cream rise to the top.

 

[NikeGolf]

Im not trying to back anybody in a corner, just saying that for years, the facts went against your thoughts.

Annika is foreign with an accent and dominated the LPGA for a decade.
Michelle Wie is American but does not "look" it and is the biggest draw out there.
YE Yang won the PGA and does not speak the language and it did not hurt the ratings.
I just disagree that we need good looking American women to have men watch. We need dominance and we need Charisma. Would a Natalie Gulbis being dominant be better for ratings than that of Ai Miyazato? Very likely, but here is a small stat for you.

Anna Kournikova was a good tennis player until she reached the professional ranks. She was then a sideshow. Her matches did not garner any more in ratings after the 1st 6 months than that of other players. So looks only go so far.

Look at the big draws on the PGA Tour according to TGC.
Tiger - Dominance
Phil - Dominating + Train Wreck
JD - Train Wreck and Charisma
Sergio - Train Wreck

People tune in for different reasons. Tiger does not look like the average golfer. Sergio is not American and heck not even liked. In my opinion it is about showcasing talent and the LPGA has done a poor job of that by trying to showcase just how good ALL of these girls are rather than making the courses harder and letting the cream rise to the top.

I think we should be careful when comparing players on the men's tour to the ladies tour. Both tours are different animals.

To answer the question about Gulbis vs. Miyazato in the question would Gulbis garner more ratings, and thus more attention for the LPGA? You answered, "very likely". hahaha. "Very Likely"??? I would say a resounding YES taken to infinity times 2.

The problem w/ the Kournikova analogy is that she wasn't great. She never was. She was good when she got in, won a couple of doubles titles w/ Hingis, and that was that. She never won anything of merit as a singles player that people would know or remember. (I know Anna's biography pretty well, haha)

Annika dominated the LPGA for a long time BECAUSE SHE'S THE BEST FEMALE GOLFER OF ALL TIME. I would agree that in her case, she could have been from Mars and it wouldn't have mattered.

I more or less agree w/ you on most accounts. I just think, more so than you do, that a great, American girl golfer is sorely needed now, more than ever, in the LPGA.

Or heck, ANY woman who can show dominance and has charisma.

That, I will agree with.