He has his place amongst the all-time greats secured but I could build a Top 10 that doesn't have him in it.
Kobe: Top 10 best?
Kobe is also #1 in missed shots all time.
But Kobe was a pretty good defender on the perimeter.
But Kobe was a pretty good defender on the perimeter.
I absolutely abhor the teammate argument. There have been very, very few instances where one superstar wins a title without another star to help. In recent history, only a few come to mind (93-94 Rockets with Hakeem, 03-04 Pistons with Chauncey/Ben Wallace, 2010-11 Mavericks with Dirk). Sure, you could argue that Jordan made Pippen who he was, but it still doesn't negate the fact that Pippen is a top 50 player of all time. Very few people won a title without another fantastic player next to them.
I don't see him in the top 10 of all time ... perhaps top 15-20.
- Admin
- #30
I dont think the teammate argument has anything to do with it. Making people better and having great players around you are two very different things.
Larry Bird and Lebron James are/were small Forwards and are top 50 in assists I would bet. Im going strictly off memory here, but if Bryant averaged more than 5 assists a game, than I would be shocked. He has never been known as a guy that made those around him better. I understand the idea that he has his fans and they think he is fantastic, and thats cool, but him being a "shooting guard" is like saying Lebron is a small forward therefore shouldnt count those assists. Both guys have the ball in their hands on every single set offense and half the time bring the ball up.
The point is, saying someone is top "anything" in a complete tally list has more to do with how many games they played than it does how good they were at it. Nobody in their right mind would consider Kobe Bryant a top 30 passer despite being there in an all time tally...Strictly because he played 947,129 games.
And while we are at it, Kobe Bryant the point scorer...Lets not forget he is absolutely top 5 in FG attempts ever taken. In fact I think he is top 3-4 climbing ahead of Jordan too.
jhoefer99
#MerinoMarauder
completely agree with all of this. I thought he was clearly the second best 2 guard ever by a margin
While I am not an NBA guru, I have watched the NBA for a long time. I would not have him in my top 10 list.
My number 1 player would be Chamberlain for the simple fact, he caused the rules of the game to be changed.
My number 1 player would be Chamberlain for the simple fact, he caused the rules of the game to be changed.
mcrobertsjmac32
New member
I'm learning it's too tough to rank older players because younger guys didn't see them play and older guys tend to glorify what they did. The game has changed, the players have evolved, too tough to rank. Kobe is one of the best to ever lace them up and I will leave it at that
TheHeez
Well-known member
After years of watching him play, what I really liked about Kobe in his heyday is that he had the ability to absolutely take over a game. Big steal, timely block, clutch 10-0 run, Kobe could put the team on his back and go. There were certainly other times when he tried and could not pull it off, but when he was "on" it was a different gear that few have had in basketball history.
Pretty cool little tool at Basketball-Reference lets you compare players head to head and choose your metric (career, per game, per 36 minutes, etc.). This shows that Bird was a better all around player - more assists, rebounds, better shooting percentage, etc. than Kobe, who scored 1pt per game more.
[h=2]Per Game[/h] Glossary · SHARE · Embed · CSV · Export · PRE · LINK · ?
| Rk | Player | From | To | G | GS | MP | FG | FGA | FG% | 3P | 3PA | 3P% | 2P | 2PA | 2P% | eFG% | FT | FTA | FT% | ORB | DRB | TRB | AST | STL | BLK | TOV | PF | PTS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Larry Bird* | 1980 | 1992 | 897 | 870 | 38.4 | 9.6 | 19.3 | .496 | 0.7 | 1.9 | .376 | 8.9 | 17.4 | .509 | .514 | 4.4 | 5.0 | .886 | 2.0 | 8.0 | 10.0 | 6.3 | 1.7 | 0.8 | 3.1 | 2.5 | 24.3 |
| 2 | Kobe Bryant | 1997 | 2016 | 1293 | 1145 | 36.5 | 8.8 | 19.6 | .450 | 1.3 | 4.0 | .331 | 7.5 | 15.6 | .480 | .484 | 6.3 | 7.6 | .837 | 1.1 | 4.2 | 5.3 | 4.8 | 1.5 | 0.5 | 3.0 | 2.5 | 25.3 |
- Admin
- #37
So you mean Bird had more assists per game, more rebounds per game, scored just a point less and shot the ball better from the field? On the defensive side, he also had more steals per game and more blocks per game.
You are right, and not just by a little bit...
You are right, and not just by a little bit...
deuce
Grenade!
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Got to say ... 19 years in the league is a pretty impressive feat. He's going to be a physical mess for the rest of his life, but still impressive.
Yep. He was quoted the other day as saying his back and legs were such a mess that he literally was dreading the walk from the locker room to his car - and I think that was after he'd been given a couple of days off.
Golf 'N Gator
Formally HoosierGolfer
That takes my thoughts out of play.........
TheHeez
Well-known member
Then you add all the international play and long playoff runs that he was a part of. Guy is a warrior, but certainly will be feeling it for the rest of his life.
Sanzabar
Oh So Colt!
This isnt specifically about this debate, but can you put someone in your best ever if you did not see them play in their prime?
For this debate, if you did not see Wilt play, can you technically call him the best? Or are you basing it off of stats? Or highlight reels?
For this debate, if you did not see Wilt play, can you technically call him the best? Or are you basing it off of stats? Or highlight reels?
- Admin
- #43
It depends. Its like saying could you put someone in the list if you watched sportscenter and never caught more than 5 of their games a year? The answer is probably yes.
Look at the NFL Draft thread each year and then ask yourself how many games you saw those people play?
mikedean441
6X HOF
Top 10 no
Top 20 yes
Not sure he stays there though when some of these young guys call it quits someday
Top 20 yes
Not sure he stays there though when some of these young guys call it quits someday
Sanzabar
Oh So Colt!
Gotcha. That is my biggest thing... I cannot classify Wilt, Bill Russell, Magic, Bird because I did not see those guys at all and Magic/Bird, I did not understand the game enough to say they are in my top whatever.
Highlight reel and seeing many classics, its conventional wisdom to put Bird and Magic in the top.
Blows my mind thinking about it, Kobe was drafted the same year as Allen Iverson, Marcus Camby, Steve Nash and Ray Allen
mikedean441
6X HOF
441's top 10
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Big O
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. West
10. Tie between Elgin and Hakeem.
Now when Duncan retires I have him at LEAST 8th if not higher (maybe up to 6th)
and if Lebron retired today he would be right around there, but by the time he is done he will be top 3
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Big O
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. West
10. Tie between Elgin and Hakeem.
Now when Duncan retires I have him at LEAST 8th if not higher (maybe up to 6th)
and if Lebron retired today he would be right around there, but by the time he is done he will be top 3
The '96 draft was absolutely insane. Not '84 draft good, but it's right there.
I don't know how Shaq isn't in the top 10