Making A Murderer (Spoilers)

[McLovin]

If her burned body wasn't found on his property, his sweat DNA wasn't found inside the latch, her DNA wasn't found on the bullet that came front his gun, if he hadn't called multiple times requesting her, if he hadn't called her that day three times - twice hiding his number, etc., I might be a little more concerned about his civil liberties. People, think about that stuff for a few seconds. You can eliminate all the other suspect evidence and you are still left with a single conclusion: the murderer is behind bars.

I can't explain the burned body, but you can't say he burned the body any more definitively than I can, particularly when other people admitted to seeing her and those people had inconsistent alibis

she came to his property to take pictures. why is it out of the realm of possibility that he opened the door for her at some point?

I can't explain the bullet, but the circumstances in which it was found and the lack of any other evidence in that garage putting her there at any point is difficult

it's not illegal to call somebody. it proves that he called her. is it suspicious? sure. but it proves nothing.

I'm no attorney. and I'm certainly not a bleeding heart card carrying member of the aclu. but I do find this one troubling. to me it's less a case about Steven Avery and more a case about the cracks in our judicial system.


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[tequila4kapp]

I can't explain the burned body, but you can't say he burned the body any more definitively than I can, particularly when other people admitted to seeing her and those people had inconsistent alibis

she came to his property to take pictures. why is it out of the realm of possibility that he opened the door for her at some point?

I can't explain the bullet, but the circumstances in which it was found and the lack of any other evidence in that garage putting her there at any point is difficult

it's not illegal to call somebody. it proves that he called her. is it suspicious? sure. but it proves nothing.

I'm no attorney. and I'm certainly not a bleeding heart card carrying member of the aclu. but I do find this one troubling. to me it's less a case about Steven Avery and more a case about the cracks in our judicial system.

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We agree on this point.

 

[Michigan Slice]

If her burned body wasn't found on his property, his sweat DNA wasn't found inside the latch, her DNA wasn't found on the bullet that came front his gun, if he hadn't called multiple times requesting her, if he hadn't called her that day three times - twice hiding his number, etc., I might be a little more concerned about his civil liberties. People, think about that stuff for a few seconds. You can eliminate all the other suspect evidence and you are still left with a single conclusion: the murderer is behind bars.

Exactly.
But the correct man being in jail leaves nothing to the fact that the system broke down.

Let him stand trial again using the evidence that isn't "tainted". It does point in his direction, but you have to at least ask questions of why certain things were handled the way they were.

Right?

Right Corp and Blu?

 

[Michigan Slice]

She claims abuse after the fact but she violated probation and a judges orders to see him?!?!?

She's as crazy as a shithouse rat! Then again, so is everyone else involved.

Those are good questions, but the abused do some weird things I hear.

 

[Canadan]

I can't explain the burned body, but you can't say he burned the body any more definitively than I can, particularly when other people admitted to seeing her and those people had inconsistent alibis

she came to his property to take pictures. why is it out of the realm of possibility that he opened the door for her at some point?

I can't explain the bullet, but the circumstances in which it was found and the lack of any other evidence in that garage putting her there at any point is difficult

it's not illegal to call somebody. it proves that he called her. is it suspicious? sure. but it proves nothing.

I'm no attorney. and I'm certainly not a bleeding heart card carrying member of the aclu. but I do find this one troubling. to me it's less a case about Steven Avery and more a case about the cracks in our judicial system.

I agree with you. We have a case against Avery in suggesting that he's a big old weirdo. He's got that one pegged.

 

[sixcat]

Those are good questions, but the abused do some weird things I hear.

I guess.

Everyone involved in this case, prosecution, defense, law enforcement, Dassey, Avery, girlfriends, brothers, sisters, parents, even the victims family, are a strange lot! Maybe that is the appeal for me in the documentary. It isn't so much that I feel for Avery, Dassey or their family. I can't look away from the continual train wreck.

 

[Michigan Slice]

Blu tell me about the Manitowoc police departments role in the investigation, after it was determined that it was a conflict of interest.
If you tell me they obeyed the order, I'll STFU.

So....?
What about the Manitowoc's police department's role in the investigation?

It was non existent, and/or ONLY providing implements or equipment correct?

Who is listed in the court documents as finding the bullet, the Key, the Blood in the vehicle, the Sweat DNA, who interviewed Brendan?

Let me help, the NON participating Manitowoc police department.
I believe Lenk was his name...

Bumping for the Honorable Blu and Corp, as I didn't see the replies of how this is misinformation, or why this should not be considered.

Maybe my views of how the judicial system and how it should be applied are off?

 

[Michigan Slice]

With the standard held by some in this thread, it's amazing there are any murder convictions in this country.

It's amazing the seemingly inability to also admit there is a possibility or appearance of misconduct or corruption in ones local law enforcement agencies...

 

[ASN21]

It's amazing the seemingly inability to also admit there is a possibility or appearance of misconduct or corruption in ones local law enforcement agencies...

I don't believe Blugold or Girardcorp can form a non-biased opinion on this matter.

 

[blugold]

It's amazing the seemingly inability to also admit there is a possibility or appearance of misconduct or corruption in ones local law enforcement agencies...

Honest question, do you believe that the Ferguson, MO police department was/is racist or corrupt?

I don't believe Blugold or Girardcorp can form a non-biased opinion on this matter.

I feel the same way about the viewers of Making A Murder who saw the show, then researched the case. Girard, residents of the area, and I heard both sides of the argument at the same time as they were being made in court.

 

[Michigan Slice]

I don't believe Blugold or Girardcorp can form a non-biased opinion on this matter.

It's a fun discussion.
Having served on a few juries, I found this series very interesting. I realize it was told from one side, I realize there is no way to include everything involved in the trial.
But I also know that the Manitowoc PD violated or seemingly so violated a conflict of interest order.

 

[Michigan Slice]

Honest question, do you believe that the Ferguson, MO police department was/is racist or corrupt?



I feel the same way about the viewers of Making A Murder who saw the show, then researched the case. Girard, residents of the area, and I heard both sides of the argument at the same time as they were being made in court.

Yes, I believe it is not out of the realm of possibility.

At what point do you say Whoa! That isn't right!
Why are they even there when being ordered to step back?

 

[sposey013168]

I fail to see the correlation in those incidents

Honest question, do you believe that the Ferguson, MO police department was/is racist or corrupt?

 

[captaincaution]

We are halfway through the series, and while I still don't know what to think, the most important takeaway I've gotten and keep telling my wife is no matter what the cops are talking to you about, tell them you want an attorney.

 

[blugold]

Yes, I believe it is not out of the realm of possibility.

At what point do you say Whoa! That isn't right!
Why are they even there when being ordered to step back?

I will soften, it is possible that there are corrupt members of the law enforcement and prosecutor community in Wisconsin.

But I do not believe the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office, the Calumet County District Attorney's office, the Brown County Clerk of Courts, and the Wisconsin State Crime Lab in Waukesha conspired to frame, prosecute and imprison a man for a crime he did not commit.

 

[ASN21]

After I was done watching this I definitely questioned if he was wrongly convicted. After reading more about the case and reading more about the information that was not included, my opinion changed to he likely did it. All I know is that the law enforcement people that were involved in his wrongful jailing (for the rape trial) are a joke.

 

[Michigan Slice]

I will soften, it is possible that there are corrupt members of the law enforcement and prosecutor community in Wisconsin.

But I do not believe the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office, the Calumet County District Attorney's office, the Brown County Clerk of Courts, and the Wisconsin State Crime Lab in Waukesha conspired to frame, prosecute and imprison a man for a crime he did not commit.

Ok, fair enough.
Let me ask this (again)

Why do you believe, the Manitowoc Sheriff Dept was so heavily involved in investigation when they were told to take a back seat?
Would you find this action questionable?

Access to the Avery compound, and implements.
That was the extent that the intended involvement in the case was supposed to be.
Why was that broken?
How does that look?

Maybe I just ask different questions...

 

[Girardcorp]

I think i'm not going to say much more, because it doesn't serve a purpose. People will believe whatever they want to believe based on the 'show' that has been put together. As Blu mentioned, we saw this in real time, as things were going out, and at that point, it was unbiased as far as i was concerned. There is so much more that keeps getting said, yet people gloss over it and focus on the stuff from the show.

It'd be nice to actually try to come up with a constructive way to move forward? Should he get a retrial? How would we have a jury who hasn't heard all this? Until Netflix a month ago, maybe the other side of the state could've been an option. Now anybody with a Netflix subscription has been tainted by these 'views'. Who gets a fair trial? Avery? Should he just be let go, because it didn't go exactly 100% correct? I really would like to know.

 

[StLCardsFan]

After I was done watching this I definitely questioned if he was wrongly convicted. After reading more about the case and reading more about the information that was not included, my opinion changed to he likely did it. All I know is that the law enforcement people that were involved in his wrongful jailing (for the rape trial) are a joke.

I haven't see the whole thing, just the first couple episodes. Watching the first one it still baffles me how they were able to convict him. There were a ton of things that created reasonable doubt in my mind. If I was on that jury, I would need more evidence than the testimony of a traumatized victim when there is so much evidence and proof that Avery was no where near the scene. Was his public defender simply that incompetent? I realize they were out to get him, but you can poke so many holes in that case a third year should have been able to get him off.

 

[blugold]

Ok, fair enough.
Let me ask this (again)

Why do you believe, the Manitowoc Sheriff Dept was so heavily involved in investigation when they were told to take a back seat?
Would you find this action questionable?

Access to the Avery compound, and implements.
That was the extent that the intended involvement in the case was supposed to be.
Why was that broken?
How does that look?

Maybe I just ask different questions...

All fair questions. But the crime scene was a salvage yard in a rural part of a county that was being prosecuted by an even more rural county. In order to ensure the most efficient search and fastest trial, as a means to protect due process, a larger investigation team was required.

Just my guess. I don't have that answer. I know it looks like a really convenient way to show that there was a conspiracy to make sure Steven Avery wouldn't be allowed to go forth with his $36,000,000 civil suit against Manitowoc County for wrongful imprisonment. But the level of coordination and execution of that frame is far outside of plausible reality. That's straight Hollywood stuff.

 

[Michigan Slice]

I think i'm not going to say much more, because it doesn't serve a purpose. People will believe whatever they want to believe based on the 'show' that has been put together. As Blu mentioned, we saw this in real time, as things were going out, and at that point, it was unbiased as far as i was concerned. There is so much more that keeps getting said, yet people gloss over it and focus on the stuff from the show.

It'd be nice to actually try to come up with a constructive way to move forward? Should he get a retrial? How would we have a jury who hasn't heard all this? Until Netflix a month ago, maybe the other side of the state could've been an option. Now anybody with a Netflix subscription has been tainted by these 'views'. Who gets a fair trial? Avery? Should he just be let go, because it didn't go exactly 100% correct? I really would like to know.

Weak sauce.
I'm not saying the man is innocent.

I'm saying the investigation leading to his conviction and therefore his sentence was grossly mishandled.

I do question if the Manitowoc PD had it out for him, otherwise why all the questionable findings of evidence?
Why were they involved when told to back the eff off?
Why would they put the possibility of their involvement being questioned in the trial?

If the evidence is there, he could be convicted right?
Even without the questionable evidence or confessions right?

All I think people want to see is the judicial system administered as intended, and as mr. Avery has a right to.
The system broke down, and failed.
He deserves IMO to a retrial, and the preponderance of evidence will more than likely convict him once again.
But what happened in the trial, even though it may be right, doesn't mean it was just.

Right?

 

[Girardcorp]

Weak sauce.
I'm not saying the man is innocent.

I'm saying the investigation leading to his conviction and therefore his sentence was grossly mishandled.

I do question if the Manitowoc PD had it out for him, otherwise why all the questionable findings of evidence?
Why were they involved when told to back the eff off?
Why would they put the possibility of their involvement being questioned in the trial?

If the evidence is there, he could be convicted right?
Even without the questionable evidence or confessions right?

All I think people want to see is the judicial system administered as intended, and as mr. Avery has a right to.
The system broke down, and failed.
He deserves IMO to a retrial, and the preponderance of evidence will more than likely convict him once again.
But what happened in the trial, even though it may be right, doesn't mean it was just.

Right?

Right


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[Michigan Slice]

All fair questions. But the crime scene was a salvage yard in a rural part of a county that was being prosecuted by an even more rural county. In order to ensure the most efficient search and fastest trial, as a means to protect due process, a larger investigation team was required.

Just my guess. I don't have that answer. I know it looks like a really convenient way to show that there was a conspiracy to make sure Steven Avery wouldn't be allowed to go forth with his $36,000,000 civil suit against Manitowoc County for wrongful imprisonment. But the level of coordination and execution of that frame is far outside of plausible reality. That's straight Hollywood stuff.

The State crime lab was called in early, they left after finding basically nothing.
They didn't find the key
They didn't find the bullet
They didn't find the DNA of The victim in the bedroom
They found bones, they found blood in the back of the truck, they found her purse and smashed cell phone.

How did they miss the key in plain sight?
How did they miss the bullet?
Where is the DNA of the victim?

How did a "small time" outfit such as the Manitowoc PD (who shouldn't be there BTW) find such damning evidence even after the state crime lab failed to do so?

I look forward to the response.
And this is a good conversation and debate...

 

[Michigan Slice]

Right


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So you agree the evidence will stand on its own and the man should be granted a new trial?

 

[Girardcorp]

So you agree the evidence will stand on its own and the man should be granted a new trial?

I have no problem with that. I just have a hard time believing he will find 12 unprejudiced jurors.


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