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By this logic however sponsor exemptions and invitationals shouldn’t exist either
NEWS OWGR Says No to LIV Golf
henchman24
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The board said the team competition is problematic in ranking accurately. So in essence they want them to get rid of the whole team aspect.
The whole league is based on the team competition so LIV will never get OWGR as long as it's in existence. So it's much deeper than Monday qualifiers and cuts.
The funny thing is the guys on LIV really don't seem that upset. I guess with $50 million dollar purses OWGR doesn't seem all that important.
henchman24
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The team aspect was a few sentences. Access was spelled out in far more detail. It’s clear that’s the main issue.
Still LIV knows the rules, they choose to thumb their noses at it and scream foul. If they make the changes, they’ll get points. If the don’t, they simply won’t. Seems pretty clear.
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Rules? Do you mean when they changed the rules retroactively mid-season to exempt Talor Gooch from the U.S. Open?
OWGR will just keep moving the goalposts, LIV is never getting rankings.
Talor Gooch is ranked 201 so the OWGR board is a joke just like Rahm rightly said.
70sSanO
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If this is true, there shouldn’t be any issues.
And it does make sense if the choice is win a major or make millions more than you could on the PGAT.
While legacy has a place, I would think the number is around 4 major wins. Winning one is nice, but a hot week and some breaks doesn’t turn someone into a household name; unless he’s also got 15-20 tour wins.
John
Datagolf have their own ranking system and it seems pretty good. It has different data points to owgr and includes LIV. It looks fairly accurate. If owgr is to continue as the qualification criteria to the majors then it should probably change its name to reflect that.
There have been exclusionary rival leagues in other sports at least somewhat comparable, though team sports it's still individuals ultimately. Until they can come together, they're not going to see eye to eye on this stuff, and tough crap....less money for the non LIV guys, less prestige for the big moneymakers in LIV.
IMO
IMO
bulls9999
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I can't figure out what the OWGR deal is with the 'team' competition since they have a simultaneous individual competition going on. What does the team aspect have to do with interfering with OWGR points for individual placement? (they aren't trying to get points for the 'team play' placement, are they? that would be a ridiculous ask). The other aspects (3 rounds, no cut, no way to qualify, current players are locked in every round, etc) I can see where OWGR has issue with, but since there is an overall individual competition, what's the beef with the teams. Heck, PGA tour can do that...have a random number generator select 'teams' at the start of every tournament....you may lose some members of your team due to the cut, but that could be an extra payday to someone who doesn't fair well individually?
The OWGR President literally said they already have the math to deal with the 3 rounds, no cut, smaller field aspect.
They didn't like the team competition because a player may play more conservatively in finishing holes to protect the team win, rather than trying to finish in the best possible individual position (but guys on the PGA Tour do this all the time as playing a risky shot may not be worth possibly costing yourself a top 10 finish, so I'm not really sure what the issue is there).
They also claimed they didn't like how much of a closed shop it was, but also refuse to suggest what changes would need to be made to get over that hurdle. And again, not sure why this is an issue cause you it's not the World Rankings job to get people golf jobs, it's to rank the best players in the world which they admit they aren't fully doing now.
It will be interesting to see how this changes if the PIF/PGA tour merger doesn't happen, as I think more tour players will leave to go to LIV, and with more of the best in the world leaving, the rankings would be even more useless.
In a sense, golf would seem a sport where using scoring data vs course rating etc would be a very valid way to determine who the "best" players. There'd need to be a bonus for wins in larger tournaments because pressure is a real thing.
But in many ways golf feels like baseball before "moneyball" . The OGWR and others feel like the scouts talking about this player just has a hot bat, or another player has an ugly girlfriend.
With course and score data, and something on the line....it should be fairly do-able to get a good gauge on if Talor Gooch or Bryson are playing good golf compared to guys on the PGA tour using the same data.
You can adjust win points for 48 person fields and 3 rounds (mathematically easier to win)
I mean geez, NCAA had the BCS like 25 years ago factoring in more math than Good Will Hunting....I'm sure this is doable
henchman24
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You’re mixing up what happened to Gooch. That was the USGA that changed the rules, not OWGR. USGA has input, but they can’t unilaterally make this decision.
Gooch is a lot better than 201, but he’s not earning points. It is pretty simple. Woods even on a bum leg is better than 1200… but he’s not playing.
I do agree LIV isn’t getting points… but not for the reason you state. It is their own hubris and unwillingness to change. They rather scream foul than adjust.
I think it will, PIF has so much money and will throw it around for a seat at the table. I don't think the tour can resist that. Unless regulatory agencies block (i know little about this) i guess.....but considering everything they don't block, that would be very weird
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But what's the value for both orgs? If you don't put everyone back together on one tour there is no reason to merge. That doesn't seem to be the direction so what's the point?
I don't think LIV will be around for very long. I think it's all posturing right now. Once the merger goes through i think they will only keep LIV going until the big contracts for guys like Cam Smith and Koepka and others are done. Because closing LIV before those contracts are done causes problems (do they still collect the money and also go back to PGA tour? That would anger guys on the tour---Also no one is really sure what is in those LIV contracts as apparently they are all different)
I think once their liability is over they take LIV behind the barn and shoot it
Maybe it's just me who thinks this, but i find it odd that more info hasn't publicly come out on what would be satisfactory to the OGWR. It seems like maybe LIV isn't trying hard enough, but they are also playing darts here.
I think maybe most can agree that LIV shouldn't have to be exactly the same rules as the PGA tour.
So many players should they have to relegate if 4 is not enough? How many exemptions can they have if 14 is too many?
it would be nice if they could just tell them that, so then everyone can be like "Well that seems reasonable, why isn't LIV doing that"
henchman24
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I think for both LIV and PGA there is a pretty simple reason to continue to merge, money. PIF money will end up on the PGA and keep the finances in order as they were spending at an unsustainable rate. For LIV, the legitimacy the merger brings along with the lack of blowback for the networks, it should allow them to get a legit set of TV deals and sponsorships. As much money as the PIF has, they don't want to lose money on this forever. There is eventually a limit and they'll want a return over time. They are probably fine with a 3-5 year massive loss if it pays out in 7-10... but if the TV and sponsorship money never come, I can't see the spending continuing.
In the end, my expectation of the merger would be the players mostly coming back to the same tour. Jan-Sept would primarily be PGA in the states and DPWT in Europe. Oct-Dec would be LIV's season. There might be some sprinkling around each other, but where the focus would lie would be those seasons.
That said, PGA is clearly lining up backers for more funding in the meantime and preparing contingencies. So is LIV with getting the no poaching promise pulled. This is far from over and the situation in Israel/Gaza is going to amp up the political risk. I'd say there is a very good chance it blows up from political pressure. Regulatory I can't really see it failing there.
I'm sure it was stated to them directly (conversations are referenced numerous times over the years), but yeah we don't have much beyond what was stated publicly. We can really only piece together based on norms elsewhere.
What was stated there are 14 players immune from relegation and as little as 4 spots open for the following season. Numbers the OWGR wasn't comfortable with (we don't really know what they would be comfortable with). Focusing on the 4 spots... that's basically 8% of the field could be 'earned' for the full season where worldwide that number is closer to 25%. That's a pretty large gap between and traditionally, professional golf has prided itself on the high turnover rate. Presenting it as a good thing for competition and fairness.
Along with that, LIV events has no way to play into any of them in the middle of the season. Any changes midseason are invitational based. The vast majority of other events have a way to play yourself into them. Whether they be Monday qualifiers or played into through other tournaments, there is a way those outside the tours can compete and earn their way in. Ironically, Patrick Reed might be the poster boy of why MQ is such a good thing. He had an amazing run of qualifiers (and sponsors exemptions to be fair) to earn an exemption into Q school and earned his card. He bet on himself that he was good enough to play his way on and did.
With the 14 players exempt, the issue is how they are exempt as much as them being exempt. Essentially they are exempt via contracts and not quality of play. Yeah the PGA tour has lots of players who have exemptions in future years. The lifetime guys are 20 wins. Then any win gets you 2 years. Beyond that, players have to earn their status each year. Eventually I'm sure LIV could come up with a way to alleviate this, but as of today, they are bringing in players based on status and contract. Along with that, those 14 players would get points regardless of their play with a no cut system (as currently calculated elsewhere). Whereas those exempt on other tours for future years still have to make the cut to get points.
If we are reading between the lines in the letter too, it seems LIV has been less than forthright in their dealings with the OWGR too. They've withheld (at best) or outright lied (at worst) about their process. Where you land on that scale is likely based personal viewpoints. They also went backhanded into their method of promotion via the Asian Tour, which was honestly just a PR trick.
Now on the LIV side, I can honestly get their arguments on not wanting a qualifying process or turnover. They want all the biggest names in the sport. They want to market that the best players in the world play on their tour and it is above any other tour. Allowing 5% of your field to be from outside the tour and a turnover of 25% tends to run against that idea. No offense meant to Luke List, but most people don't really care about him winning a tournament or even more obscure Sam Stevens getting his first win. You're not going to get nearly as many sponsors and TV focusing on those stories vs Phil/Koepka/Smith/etc. It makes sense from a business perspective to be more of a closed shop, and IMO, that is why LIV is so adamant about not changing. Their end goal was (and likely still is) to get the 48 most marketable golfers on a worldwide tour, and gather the most money possible in the process. They want a superstar only tour. That whole idea runs counter to the meritocracy that OWGR promotes, but from a business and financial perspective, hard to argue that wouldn't bring the most return.
In the end, my expectation of the merger would be the players mostly coming back to the same tour. Jan-Sept would primarily be PGA in the states and DPWT in Europe. Oct-Dec would be LIV's season. There might be some sprinkling around each other, but where the focus would lie would be those seasons.
That said, PGA is clearly lining up backers for more funding in the meantime and preparing contingencies. So is LIV with getting the no poaching promise pulled. This is far from over and the situation in Israel/Gaza is going to amp up the political risk. I'd say there is a very good chance it blows up from political pressure. Regulatory I can't really see it failing there.
I'm sure it was stated to them directly (conversations are referenced numerous times over the years), but yeah we don't have much beyond what was stated publicly. We can really only piece together based on norms elsewhere.
What was stated there are 14 players immune from relegation and as little as 4 spots open for the following season. Numbers the OWGR wasn't comfortable with (we don't really know what they would be comfortable with). Focusing on the 4 spots... that's basically 8% of the field could be 'earned' for the full season where worldwide that number is closer to 25%. That's a pretty large gap between and traditionally, professional golf has prided itself on the high turnover rate. Presenting it as a good thing for competition and fairness.
Along with that, LIV events has no way to play into any of them in the middle of the season. Any changes midseason are invitational based. The vast majority of other events have a way to play yourself into them. Whether they be Monday qualifiers or played into through other tournaments, there is a way those outside the tours can compete and earn their way in. Ironically, Patrick Reed might be the poster boy of why MQ is such a good thing. He had an amazing run of qualifiers (and sponsors exemptions to be fair) to earn an exemption into Q school and earned his card. He bet on himself that he was good enough to play his way on and did.
With the 14 players exempt, the issue is how they are exempt as much as them being exempt. Essentially they are exempt via contracts and not quality of play. Yeah the PGA tour has lots of players who have exemptions in future years. The lifetime guys are 20 wins. Then any win gets you 2 years. Beyond that, players have to earn their status each year. Eventually I'm sure LIV could come up with a way to alleviate this, but as of today, they are bringing in players based on status and contract. Along with that, those 14 players would get points regardless of their play with a no cut system (as currently calculated elsewhere). Whereas those exempt on other tours for future years still have to make the cut to get points.
If we are reading between the lines in the letter too, it seems LIV has been less than forthright in their dealings with the OWGR too. They've withheld (at best) or outright lied (at worst) about their process. Where you land on that scale is likely based personal viewpoints. They also went backhanded into their method of promotion via the Asian Tour, which was honestly just a PR trick.
Now on the LIV side, I can honestly get their arguments on not wanting a qualifying process or turnover. They want all the biggest names in the sport. They want to market that the best players in the world play on their tour and it is above any other tour. Allowing 5% of your field to be from outside the tour and a turnover of 25% tends to run against that idea. No offense meant to Luke List, but most people don't really care about him winning a tournament or even more obscure Sam Stevens getting his first win. You're not going to get nearly as many sponsors and TV focusing on those stories vs Phil/Koepka/Smith/etc. It makes sense from a business perspective to be more of a closed shop, and IMO, that is why LIV is so adamant about not changing. Their end goal was (and likely still is) to get the 48 most marketable golfers on a worldwide tour, and gather the most money possible in the process. They want a superstar only tour. That whole idea runs counter to the meritocracy that OWGR promotes, but from a business and financial perspective, hard to argue that wouldn't bring the most return.
bulls9999
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Didn't recent reports say that (large) private investors have come out of the woodwork to try and get a 'piece of the action'?
Yes, some American based investment firms have been linked to PGA Tour now, though reports have said this is uncertain if it is a challenging bid or supplemental or what the details were
bulls9999
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I understand the LIV side better after your perspective, thanks. But I still don't like the closed competition without changeover as warranted by performance. And no wonder some of the liv heavyweights are winning multiple tournament against half the field (of 48) that is not competitive....you only have to beat 23 players.
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Mike Whan the USGA Chief Executive officer sits on the OWGR board. So the guy who changed the verbiage from qualifying to qualifying and being eligible for the Tour Championship is the same OWGR board member who voted no on LIV getting rankings.
Up until this day, no one has explained why he added eligibility to the Tour Championship as a requirement for the U.S. Open.
Mike Whan is also the guy who said the OWGR board is in no rush to review and complete the LIV application.
So it's okay for these board guys to make changes but it's not okay for a multi-billion dollar investor into golf to make format changes to their league with their money. Does the OWGR have billions of dollars to grow the game and get players paid?
The OWGR board is a corrupt swamp and only exists to protect the PGAT and its TV contracts.
henchman24
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I personally agree. If it was pure open competition and the best get spots that they can also lose, it becomes a more compelling product IMO.
On the wins... I think we have already seen that. This will sound more critical than I mean it for Gooch (I think he is a much better golfer than this will sound)... but this is a guy who only won once on the Web.com tour and once on the PGA tour. The two years prior to that win (19 and 20), he was a golfer in the 100-200 range on the OWGR pretty consistently. The year of that win he was having a great year climbed into the 50-100 range. The win pushed him near 30. In 22 he mostly maintained that range, though only 2 top 10s in OWGR eligible events. His highest finish in a major is 14th in the 2022 Masters. His only other finish better than 34th is 20th in the 22 PGA. His last 5 major appearances he's missed the cut 3 times. Taking all that in, he sounds like a pretty average PGA tour player. Essentially this is the same resume as Lucas Herbert. Yet Gooch won 3 times on LIV and won the season points. That alone shows some of the quality issues within it. I certainly think Gooch is a top 60 golfer and arguably top 50 who should be in each major. I'm not saying he's terrible... just saying he's a clear example of the strength of the fields being low.
I know Whan is on that board... but 3 other board members voted with him to make this a unanimous decision. It was not Whan alone who decided this. Certainly he had a powerful voice, but USGA decisions are not OWGR decisions.
Whan (and other major tournaments) are allowed to make the changes they see fit for their tournaments. All of them have changed over the years. They could go the LIV direction and include the top 12 guys if they wanted to. I'm sure you'd be applauding that move. The OWGR has guidelines on how to get points and tours that abide get points. They are very consistent in their measuring, it is more that LIV doesn't want to abide. They want the OWGR to bend to their will and have been very backhanded about it.
On the growing the game... that's not what LIV is doing. They don't care about growing the game. This is about money. They want a breakaway superstar tour that they can have under a for-profit umbrella with huge margins. They want team owners that buy in for huge franchise fees and foot the bill for players, while PIF gets a cut. They want courses and clubs to bid for the rights to host tournaments. They want a prime TV deal that pays billions to broadcast the events. When either side says it is about growing the game, that's a pure lie. This is about money pure and simple. Some of the PGA guys will say legacy and history (and surely there is some of that, but it is minor)... but they have their hand in the cookie jar too.
You're going full Phil on the last statement.
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Birdieputt
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Nobody in this deal is interested in "growing the game" particularly the PGAT and USGA. They are in for the money pure and simple. The USGA just offered me an opportunity to "grow the game" buy sending them $1,000 and they will put in a brick at Pinehurst. That's right a brick. Whan has been a disaster and needs to be shown the door.