Playing Out of a Divot?

[Templet0n]

There is no practical method for measuring "the ball on dirt lower than standard surface level of the fairway". For example, fairways have slopes, mounds, depressions etc... which make them anything but level surfaces. Also, even on a perfectly flat level grass surface measuring a difference of a millimeter or two would require some sort of precise device.

I honestly feel like this should not be hard. We either A. accept divots and hitting out of them is going to happen.

Or we can all decide that we all honestly know a divot when we see one and can get relief from it. I feel like anyone that has played golf for a reasonable amount of time can tell the difference from a Divot caused by a club versus a depression in a fairway.

but. We could really take it a step further and call any small break in the fairway where dirt is exposed ground under repair and take relief. The game is hard. Lets make it a little less hard. the game is unfair. We all accept that but lets make it a little bit more fair..

 

[Canadan]

I don't see why it needs to be even that hard. Ball lands in a divot, no matter how faint, you're allowed the relief of moving it to just out of the divot to the right or left, such that your lie is not improved other than the ball no longer being in the divot.

Perhaps naivete born of being a newbie, but how hard is that?

I think in a perfect word, with integrity being the top priority of all golfers, you are correct (although I'd prefer it be a drop vs a roll).

As many have noted, we can't trust everyone, so we need to find a way to adequately define a divot that is a condition that would suggest "without a shadow of a doubt" sort of thing.

 

[dacatalyst41]

I honestly feel like this should not be hard. We either A. accept divots and hitting out of them is going to happen.

Or we can all decide that we all honestly know a divot when we see one and can get relief from it. I feel like anyone that has played golf for a reasonable amount of time can tell the difference from a Divot caused by a club versus a depression in a fairway.

but. We could really take it a step further and call any small break in the fairway where dirt is exposed ground under repair and take relief. The game is hard. Lets make it a little less hard. the game is unfair. We all accept that but lets make it a little bit more fair..

These are my sentiments exactly. I realize the rules exist for the Reed's of the world, but there's a point at which we're making the game harder than it has to be. If you get relief from a plugged ball, but not a divot, I don't understand the logic.

 

[BigMac]

Nowhere do i suggest that at all, but i do suggest that if you hit to the same section of the fairway where possibly 70 other people hit that morning, why expect a perfect lie? he could have hit 3 wood to 260-270 and probably avoided all the divots. Its a game of chance, the bounces, the imperfections in the green, even the changing of the wind. how many hit of the 18th that morning and no one else landed in a divot? have each one sanded and the groups hit, why aren't they replacing the divots? unfair? maybe, but its not a game of perfect

So, using that same standard, if you were to hit a drive right into the middle of the fairway and it happened to land in a trench where the greenskeepers had dug up a sprinkler line, would you take your drop and penalty stroke for an unplayable lie and keep playing? Would you play it down and try to hit out of the ditch? Or would you take the free drop allowed within the rules for ground under repair?

Uphill/downhill/sidehill lies, deep rough, bunkers, waste areas, water hazards - those are all things that the course designer intentionally included to punish bad shots. They're elements you need to consider in your strategy. Fairway divots were not part of the course design, just like a temporary ditch around an irrigation line. If you hit your shot to an area of the course that the designer intended to be "safe" (e.g., the middle of the fairway), it was intended that you would have a fairway lie from there. If you know there's a fairway bunker 250 yards out and you hit driver and end up in the bunker, that's on you - you knew it was there and should have made a different club choice to avoid it. If you club down to avoid that bunker, hit right into the middle of the fairway and your ball rolls into a big, fat divot, that could be even more punitive than the bunker lie would have been.

The rules allow free relief from temporary immovable obstructions, casual water, dangerous conditions, ground under repair, and a host of other things. We're allowed to repair ball marks and spike marks on the green, we're allowed to remove loose impediments around the ball, even in bunkers. Why? Because those things weren't part of the course design. Why should fairway divots be treated differently?

 

[Templet0n]

So, using that same standard, if you were to hit a drive right into the middle of the fairway and it happened to land in a trench where the greenskeepers had dug up a sprinkler line, would you take your drop and penalty stroke for an unplayable lie and keep playing? Would you play it down and try to hit out of the ditch? Or would you take the free drop allowed within the rules for ground under repair?

Uphill/downhill/sidehill lies, deep rough, bunkers, waste areas, water hazards - those are all things that the course designer intentionally included to punish bad shots. They're elements you need to consider in your strategy. Fairway divots were not part of the course design, just like a temporary ditch around an irrigation line. If you hit your shot to an area of the course that the designer intended to be "safe" (e.g., the middle of the fairway), it was intended that you would have a fairway lie from there. If you know there's a fairway bunker 250 yards out and you hit driver and end up in the bunker, that's on you - you knew it was there and should have made a different club choice to avoid it. If you club down to avoid that bunker, hit right into the middle of the fairway and your ball rolls into a big, fat divot, that could be even more punitive than the bunker lie would have been.

The rules allow free relief from temporary immovable obstructions, casual water, dangerous conditions, ground under repair, and a host of other things. We're allowed to repair ball marks and spike marks on the green, we're allowed to remove loose impediments around the ball, even in bunkers. Why? Because those things weren't part of the course design. Why should fairway divots be treated differently?

You get relief from this man made damage. See. simple.. haha..



But not this one..

 

[Canadan]

There is no practical method for measuring "the ball on dirt lower than standard surface level of the fairway". For example, fairways have slopes, mounds, depressions etc... which make them anything but level surfaces. Also, even on a perfectly flat level grass surface measuring a difference of a millimeter or two would require some sort of precise device.

You really think 99% of golfers wouldn't be able to use that kind of basic common sense to understand the rule?

You could make that argument for plenty of rules in the book.

 

[DG_1234]

If you get relief from a plugged ball, but not a divot, I don't understand the logic.

An embedded ball is easy to define. An aged divot hole is essentially impossible to define.

 

[Canadan]

An embedded ball is easy to define. An aged divot hole is essentially impossible to define.

"impossible"

No, it's not.

 

[BigMac]

"impossible"

No, it's not.

I'm amazed at the number of people who presume a complete lack of common sense amongst golfers.

 

[OldandStiff]

You really think 99% of golfers wouldn't be able to use that kind of basic common sense to understand the rule?

You could make that argument for plenty of rules in the book.

I think 99% already disregard the lack of rule anyway, and it means enough to a portion of the 1% that don't, that they will absolutely fight common sense limits if it could benefit them. And the people that don't normally follow anyway and have to, will try to stretch every definition. I honestly pity anyone involved in the potential scramble tournament scenarios. It shouldn't be hard at all, but even honest golfers have been known to argue the details of things.

 

[Templet0n]

I'm amazed at the number of people who presume a complete lack of common sense amongst golfers.

I think it is due to the rampant amount of cheating that happens in this gentleman's game. haha.

 

[BigMac]

I think it is due to the rampant amount of cheating that happens in this gentleman's game. haha.

If the rule was put into place the way @Canadan defined it, there wouldn't be any cheating - everybody would be on an equal footing.

It's all fun and games when your opponent's ball rolls into a little half-filled divot and you think "haha, sucks to be you". It ain't funny anymore when your ball rolls into a gash that looks like somebody hit their shot with a shovel, and your opponent shrugs and says "Wow, tough break...that's gonna be a hard one".

 

[Canadan]

I think 99% already disregard the lack of rule anyway, and it means enough to a portion of the 1% that don't, that they will absolutely fight common sense limits if it could benefit them. And the people that don't normally follow anyway and have to, will try to stretch every definition. I honestly pity anyone involved in the potential scramble tournament scenarios. It shouldn't be hard at all, but even honest golfers have been known to argue the details of things.

So, it's hard because all rules stemmed from somewhere - and the argument that golfers bend them as far as possible applies to ANY rule in the book, doesn't it? So why are we suggesting something like this can't be a thing when similar rules with bend potential exist?

I pity anyone who has so many people around them bending the rule that they would fear something like this getting added. I know of only a couple of guys at my club (three years on a rules and handicap committee opens the door to the worst of the worst) out of the full membership that would even slightly abuse this. Most guys I know ask about rules and are always comfortable leaning toward the cautious side of the decision - because they are honest, decent people.

 

[Templet0n]

If the rule was put into place the way @Canadan defined it, there wouldn't be any cheating - everybody would be on an equal footing.

It's all fun and games when your opponent's ball rolls into a little half-filled divot and you think "haha, sucks to be you". It ain't funny anymore when your ball rolls into a gash that looks like somebody hit their shot with a shovel, and your opponent shrugs and says "Wow, tough break...that's gonna be a hard one".

Sure. and for the most part cheating may be a bit of a strong word. the vast majority of golfers dont play by all the rules. And honestly why should they? They are there to have fun... Which I think is the spirit of the discussion and why playing out of divots is dumb no matter how often it happens. Again for me. is almost never..

I will be honest and say I dont follow all the rules all the time. There are times I am playing and hit a ball out in to the rocks. I decide that I dont want to destroy my clubs but hitting out of the rocks and move it to a spot with less rocks. I dont kick it out in the fairway but I still improved my lie and I didnt take the penalty. There are times I say meh, I am moving my ball here or doing this because its a public course and I dont feel like dealing with whatever crap is there. etc. etc. So again all technically against the rules. But you know. I am having fun. If it is a competition which I play in a few every year. I stick to the rules and whatever local provisions have been made.

 

[DG_1234]

They are there to have fun...

For some players honoring the Rules, including sometimes playing shots from less than ideal lies, makes the game its most possible fun experience.

 

[OldandStiff]

So, it's hard because all rules stemmed from somewhere - and the argument that golfers bend them as far as possible applies to ANY rule in the book, doesn't it? So why are we suggesting something like this can't be a thing when similar rules with bend potential exist?

I pity anyone who has so many people around them bending the rule that they would fear something like this getting added. I know of only a couple of guys at my club (three years on a rules and handicap committee opens the door to the worst of the worst) out of the full membership that would even slightly abuse this. Most guys I know ask about rules and are always comfortable leaning toward the cautious side of the decision - because they are honest, decent people.

Well my playing partners that post/bet/keep actual score don't really bend, but more so than me, and I don't think they even represent the norm. I don't think your club necessarily represents the average public scramble crowd either. I've been at enough to know that they're not always pretty with the rules interpretations. Alcohol helps with that. lol And do we read the same forum? Well respected players here fully admit to moving their ball out of divots, off roots, rocks, etc. Most golfers do, and few on the whole do it by the exact rules.

I'm a big fan of what @NVGOLFER80 said about officials just standing up to any bullying and applying it in a common sense way with no leeway, because it's not necessary. It's simple at it core. And I'd be right there expressing 'tough break, sorry dude', with varying levels of empathy, toward anyone trying to stretch it. Everything starts simple though and is then complicated by people. And on this issue I just don't see it as as something that occurs enough to really need a separate rule that will inevitably be debated, resented for it's specific interpretation, etc like all the others. I mean, read the stories here about issues that shouldn't be an issue becoming the entire issue at your average scramble. Who should be dq'd for blah blah blah. On a local level I pity the people needing to be involved in that. And as someone leaning towards the tough **** side, I can just lean that way on the ball in the divot and save the entire hassle. Play it down, or call them under repair and let everyone decide on the honor system and their interpretation of the rule like most things imo. The few that are a pain will complicate it as they always do, and that applies to the very small percentage who it means a great deal to. And then bring on the rules officials shooting people down and Bryson huffing and stomping. haha

 

[Templet0n]

For some players honoring the Rules, including sometimes playing shots from less than ideal lies, makes the game its most possible fun experience.

Totally agree. I enjoy that as well. As it is awesome to pull it off. I will honestly just bump it when I feel equipment may be damaged. Its too expensive.

 

[JB]

Totally agree.

Of course in @Canadan scenario, people would be honoring the rules as they would be altered.

 

[BigMac]

Sure. and for the most part cheating may be a bit of a strong word. the vast majority of golfers dont play by all the rules. And honestly why should they? They are there to have fun... Which I think is the spirit of the discussion and why playing out of divots is dumb no matter how often it happens. Again for me. is almost never..

I will be honest and say I dont follow all the rules all the time. There are times I am playing and hit a ball out in to the rocks. I decide that I dont want to destroy my clubs but hitting out of the rocks and move it to a spot with less rocks. I dont kick it out in the fairway but I still improved my lie and I didnt take the penalty. There are times I say meh, I am moving my ball here or doing this because its a public course and I dont feel like dealing with whatever crap is there. etc. etc. So again all technically against the rules. But you know. I am having fun. If it is a competition which I play in a few every year. I stick to the rules and whatever local provisions have been made.

You're not alone, we do the same things. Even in money games, there are "rules by consensus" that we play based upon our knowledge of course conditions on our home course, that aren't within the RoG. In an actual tournament/competitive setting, obviously those "adaptations" would be out the window and I'd play strictly by the rules. But then again, if I was playing competitive golf, I probably wouldn't be dealing with some of the course conditions we have to deal with on our home course in the first place!

 

[Templet0n]

Of course in @Canadan scenario, people would be honoring the rules as they would be altered.

Yep. This seems a simple fix to a simple problem. I honestly see no downside.

 

[Canadan]

Well my playing partners that post/bet/keep actual score don't really bend, but more so than me, and I don't think they even represent the norm. I don't think your club necessarily represents the average public scramble crowd either. I've been at enough to know that they're not always pretty with the rules interpretations. Alcohol helps with that. lol And do we read the same forum? Well respected players here fully admit to moving their ball out of divots, off roots, rocks, etc. Most golfers do, and few on the whole do it by the exact rules.

I'm a big fan of what @NVGOLFER80 said about officials just standing up to any bullying and applying it in a common sense way with no leeway, because it's not necessary. It's simple at it core. And I'd be right there expressing 'tough break, sorry dude', with varying levels of empathy, toward anyone trying to stretch it. Everything starts simple though and is then complicated by people. And on this issue I just don't see it as as something that occurs enough to really need a separate rule that will inevitably be debated, resented for it's specific interpretation, etc like all the others. I mean, read the stories here about issues that shouldn't be an issue becoming the entire issue at your average scramble. Who should be dq'd for blah blah blah. On a local level I pity the people needing to be involved in that. And as someone leaning towards the tough **** side, I can just lean that way on the ball in the divot and save the entire hassle. Play it down, or call them under repair and let everyone decide on the honor system and their interpretation of the rule like most things imo. The few that are a pain will complicate it as they always do, and that applies to the very small percentage who it means a great deal to. And then bring on the rules officials shooting people down and Bryson huffing and stomping. haha

I don't mean to cherry pick but haven't read your whole post yet: but I am curious..

You keep mentioning the "scramble" crowd... When have you ever seen a scramble team at any level of honesty play out of a divot? Where in the rules does it say that if you land in a fairway divot, using the radius around the marked landing area is improving your lie?

I just don't really understand the relevance. I'm focused on the guys who keep handicaps and play by the rules, along with their tournament play.

 

[USAF Retired]

I don't see why it needs to be even that hard. Ball lands in a divot, no matter how faint, you're allowed the relief of moving it to just out of the divot to the right or left, such that your lie is not improved other than the ball no longer being in the divot.

Perhaps naivete born of being a newbie, but how hard is that?

Agreed. Looks like a divot and playing partners agree, relief

 

[Canadan]

For some players honoring the Rules, including sometimes playing shots from less than ideal lies, makes the game its most possible fun experience.

Yep. This seems a simple fix to a simple problem. I honestly see no downside.

I think the benefit of a change like this is to allow players to continue to honor the rules and play honest golf... Just like with all the other rule changes that have gotten us to this point and have improved both the experience and the ease of understanding of the game.

 

[NeverWiff]

"Stuff" happens... I'm for playing it it out of the divot. Bad break? Absolutely.
Life or death? Nope.

Can and does just as easily happen to an opponent. I'm not a big one for changing rules due to inconvenience OR.... Maybe we should just Roll Back the Rule Book !!!!

 

[Templet0n]

I think the benefit of a change like this is to allow players to continue to honor the rules and play honest golf... Just like with all the other rule changes that have gotten us to this point and have improved both the experience and the ease of understanding of the game.

The rule book really needs to be trimmed down and simplified. It is getting more complex than the tax code..