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mikeg_74 said:
I still dont understand the issue for blocking them.
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There issue for blocking any consumer business retail model is a joke. They are not manufacturing, they are technically a retail reseller. Anti-Trust with the internet nowadays makes no sense in this particular consumer goods category.
 
Government intervention here is hurting capitalism in that market not preserving it


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JB said:
There issue for blocking any consumer business retail model is a joke. They are not manufacturing, they are technically a retail reseller. Anti-Trust with the internet nowadays makes no sense in this particular consumer goods category.
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I guess they would prefer one or both of them just fail.
 
AAPL below $90
TSLA possibly dipping below $200
NFLX below $87

Its like the world rebelling against Hipsters out there.
 
JB said:
AAPL below $90
TSLA possibly dipping below $200
NFLX below $87

Its like the world rebelling against Hipsters out there.
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Hipsters buy Teslas?
 
JB said:
There issue for blocking any consumer business retail model is a joke. They are not manufacturing, they are technically a retail reseller. Anti-Trust with the internet nowadays makes no sense in this particular consumer goods category.
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One of my friends covers both these companies and brought up the point that in the enterprise market, these are the only two players in the game. Think Fortune 100 companies who buy a ton of office supplies, need everything uniform across the company, and need same or next day delivery. They don't order from the internet, they order from the big box, and do at such a volume where it makes sense to do so. They think that's why the administration blocked the deal, but didn't think blocking it made sense either. He thinks depot is gone within 3 years, and there goes Staples competition, in that submarket, anyway.
 
captaincaution said:
One of my friends covers both these companies and brought up the point that in the enterprise market, these are the only two players in the game. Think Fortune 100 companies who buy a ton of office supplies, need everything uniform across the company, and need same or next day delivery. They don't order from the internet, they order from the big box, and do at such a volume where it makes sense to do so. They think that's why the administration blocked the deal, but didn't think blocking it made sense either. He thinks depot is gone within 3 years, and there goes Staples competition, in that submarket, anyway.
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I dont disagree there, the problem is that the anti trust issues are being based on something that was put together prior to the internet take over in consumer purchasing. The best argument I heard was "Why is the government not going after Facebook or Google". Good question.
 
JB said:
I dont disagree there, the problem is that the anti trust issues are being based on something that was put together prior to the internet take over in consumer purchasing. The best argument I heard was "Why is the government not going after Facebook or Google". Good question.
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Because they don't charge.
 
My go pro stock through me in the gutter. My XOM and CVX stock pulled me out of it...
 
captaincaution said:
One of my friends covers both these companies and brought up the point that in the enterprise market, these are the only two players in the game. Think Fortune 100 companies who buy a ton of office supplies, need everything uniform across the company, and need same or next day delivery. They don't order from the internet, they order from the big box, and do at such a volume where it makes sense to do so. They think that's why the administration blocked the deal, but didn't think blocking it made sense either. He thinks depot is gone within 3 years, and there goes Staples competition, in that submarket, anyway.
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Your friend doesn't have to speculate about it, that's exactly what the Judge found. "...the Court finds that...there is a reasonable probability that the proposed merger will substantially impair competition in the sale and distribution of consumable office supplies to large Business-to-Business customers."

As a partner in a "large Business-to-Business customer," he's right. We frequently price shop between the two. And while they don't make the products, they exert heavy downstream pricing pressure against manufacturers that do make their products. Without the competition it would hurt my business.
 
HBirdman80 said:
You're talking about advertising?
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Android is not advertising.
Hardware is not advertising.
Whatsapp is not advertising.

The list is rather long actually.
 
JB said:
Android is not advertising.
Hardware is not advertising.
Whatsapp is not advertising.

The list is rather long actually.
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OK, so which of those are there competition concerns with (other than Android, which is already being attacked)?

And even with Android, your competition is Windows Phone, iOS, and RIM (don't laugh, many corporate types are still clinging to the BB).
With hardware you have numerous competitors.
And there are also numerous competitors to Whatsapp.

So what are Google and Facebook doing that is so anticompetitive on the level of a Staples/OD merger? I guess I'm missing the point you're making.
 
HBirdman80 said:
Your friend doesn't have to speculate about it, that's exactly what the Judge found. "...the Court finds that...there is a reasonable probability that the proposed merger will substantially impair competition in the sale and distribution of consumable office supplies to large Business-to-Business customers."

As a partner in a "large Business-to-Business customer," he's right. We frequently price shop between the two. And while they don't make the products, they exert heavy downstream pricing pressure against manufacturers that do make their products. Without the competition it would hurt my business.
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That was the thing I was going to say about this. When we order stuff at work, we are usually told "order it from the Staples or Office Depot catalog". Anything else needs another level of signatures (probably to get it on a card instead of a PO).
 
HBirdman80 said:
OK, so which of those are there competition concerns with (other than Android, which is already being attacked)?

And even with Android, your competition is Windows Phone, iOS, and RIM (don't laugh, many corporate types are still clinging to the BB).
With hardware you have numerous competitors.
And there are also numerous competitors to Whatsapp.

So what are Google and Facebook doing that is so anticompetitive on the level of a Staples/OD merger? I guess I'm missing the point you're making.
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I know why the ruling was made. My opinion (which is shared all over Bloomberg and CNBC the last two days) is that the antitrust laws need updating because they are being based on things from decades ago. The idea that a Staples and a struggling Office Depot create that in this day and age is laughable.

You said "They dont charge"
I responded that they do and gave examples.
I did not say they were related to the Office Depot and Staples M&O.

Large BtoB is not impacted, because if the prices jump there are 900 other places to order from online.
 
JB said:
I know why the ruling was made. My opinion (which is shared all over Bloomberg and CNBC the last two days) is that the antitrust laws need updating because they are being based on things from decades ago. The idea that a Staples and a struggling Office Depot create that in this day and age is laughable.

You said "They dont charge"
I responded that they do and gave examples.
I did not say they were related to the Office Depot and Staples M&O.

Large BtoB is not impacted, because if the prices jump there are 900 other places to order from online.
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Gotcha. Your statement "The best argument I heard was "Why is the government not going after Facebook or Google". Good question." had me confused. You were referring to the fact they're internet companies and the internet changes things (it's also why I thought you were saying they're related).

We're both business owners (admittedly I have only a small fraction of mine) but in very different fields and sizes. I appreciate that you think that we can just order from 900 other places online. I'm sure you can. But we can't. We have various arrangements to ensure a ready flow of the exact product we need when we need it (including custom products like letterhead). We can't just move our business to these other 900 online places. How do I know any of those other 900 internet places can fill my orders in time and with appropriate product? And that's for a 500 employee, $150mm/yr entity.

Now scale that up. My dad and I were discussing this last night (since he was a finance guy and I do a lot of antitrust work and we'd both seen the talking heads on Bloomberg (CNBC is trash)) and he was laughing about how nice it must be for those commentators to ignore the real world because how could the division he oversaw (12,000 employees, $11.9b/yr) just hop on the internet and change suppliers to some unknown entity.

And that's all before you consider the downstream effects on the suppliers.

Sure it sounds great, and I'm sure it works for you and GG and THP. The internet is wonderful for that. But it doesn't work for a whole slew of businesses.
 
One of those places being dissolved into another doesnt change any of that. One of them is not going to be around period without major changes. You saying that you have to move that business to another model is not part of the equation. The only way it happens, is if the company left standing makes large changes that impact payables.

The point being made was not about the internet being an option to immediately take business to, but rather that it keeps pricing in check from B&M in raising. Not sure how that is being missed and the size of a company has no bearing on that at all.
 
JB said:
One of those places being dissolved into another doesnt change any of that. One of them is not going to be around period without major changes. You saying that you have to move that business to another model is not part of the equation. The only way it happens, is if the company left standing makes large changes that impact payables.

The point being made was not about the internet being an option to immediately take business to, but rather that it keeps pricing in check from B&M in raising. Not sure how that is being missed and the size of a company has no bearing on that at all.
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I know I'm fighting a losing battle, but since I'm a masochist, your concept that somehow the market for THP is the same as the market for my firm is the same as the market for a DJIA component is incorrect. They are totally different markets. My demands and consumption are very different from yours and are very different from, say, Johnson & Johnson. I get pricing, product access, and product delivery very different from what you get. In this instance the Internet does not keep prices in check because for entities over a certain size (or with certain needs) internet vendors are not an effective alternative. Imagine if say American Express ditched a big supplier and tried to buy everything from an internet supplier, the internet supplier could almost certainly not keep up with the demand. Therefore, while internet alternatives may keep prices in check with respect to each other, they do not act as a check on the big market alternatives. I suspect you'll see this in the ruling from Judge Sullivan in a discussion about LRAs and effectiveness (nobody can "know" why the ruling was made because it hasn't been released yet).

And you assume that as separate entities, either Staples or Office Depot will eventually cease to exist, which completely discounts one of them going through reorganization and coming out as a leaner, more competitive entity. But, even if one ceases to exist, I'll take my extra few years of cheaper prices.
 
EDIT...Just easier.
 
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JB said:
One of those places being dissolved into another doesnt change any of that. One of them is not going to be around period without major changes. You saying that you have to move that business to another model is not part of the equation. The only way it happens, is if the company left standing makes large changes that impact payables.

The point being made was not about the internet being an option to immediately take business to, but rather that it keeps pricing in check from B&M in raising. Not sure how that is being missed and the size of a company has no bearing on that at all.
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I do think some of the larger businesses are seeing the writing on the wall and adapting their practices because of expected changes like this. My company isn't huge (and I'm sure not the owner), but we've got about 7000 people, and tend to move really, really, slow. While it takes a couple more hoops to jump through to order something from there, the fact that we can now order through Amazon for office stuff is a big (and welcome) change.
 
Who thinks oil is going up? I could get out now with some easy but small gains or hold. My feeling is it will be back to at least $60 a barrel within a year.
 
Oh Netflix... How i love you and your market movements... I've been up 15%, down 10% and now even again.. In a period of 2-3 months. Good to know this roller coaster ride will need a side of Tums...

Going to keep an eye on Monsanto... I love takeover targets. One of my best trades ever was buying Budweiser and holding until AnBev completed the purchase.
 
I've always wanted to invest but it seems like every time I'm ready I find an excuse not to. Right now my debt load is too high. It's more prudent to pay it off it I can.

I do have a 401k but that's it (and not a ton in it yet). I'm nearing 40 so I need to get moving. The wife just recently quit work to change careers. Hopefully once her schooling is complete I will be able to start beating down my debt and perhaps get some legit financial advice and start to put a little extra away in other vehicles.

I'd love to do it myself but time is at a premium so I wouldn't be able to do legit research first.


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Girardcorp said:
Oh Netflix... How i love you and your market movements... I've been up 15%, down 10% and now even again.. In a period of 2-3 months. Good to know this roller coaster ride will need a side of Tums...

Going to keep an eye on Monsanto... I love takeover targets. One of my best trades ever was buying Budweiser and holding until AnBev completed the purchase.
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I had an interesting encounter this week. I'm at the International Trademark Association annual meeting and the head of the DC Comics division of Warner Brothers (amongst other roles at WB) was the keynote speaker.

She basically admitted they have no idea where streaming is going and how to handle all the changes.

Was pretty crazy to hear such a high ranking person admit something like that.


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