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Loft Marketing Hype??

SuperStroke
c_ault

c_ault

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"Dreaded Vanishing Loft Disease" - Tom Wishon

Sorry if this has been brought up in another thread and feel free to merge it (I couldn't find a thread after searching for an hour)

I was looking at a set of Wilson Staff Di9s the other day on Ebay. I started doing some research on them, due to the price and liking Wilson Staff products, and finally found some specs on them. 42* PW???? Having read Tom Wishon's The Search for the Perfect Golf Club, I was aware of how companies are marketing there better longer clubs over the decades, my Macgregors are even a part of the disease, 45* PW, but I didn't realize how far the marketing hype had gotten until seeing the 42* PW. No wonder the sets for these come with a GW if not lower.

According to Wishon, in the 60s-70s industry average of an 8 Iron was 44* of loft, 40* for a 7 Iron. In the 80s, 42* was the industry average of an 8 Iron and 40* for the 8 in the 90s.

Do you think that the golf industry should just get rid of the numbering system for the clubs and just give us the lofts (I do)? Or maybe require an industry standard for lofts (ie, a PW is 46*, 9i is 42*, etc.) if you deviate from the loft you can't label the club as a PW, etc?

If ball design wasn't evolving, do you think that the club hype could survive? Should we require a standard ball for testing clubs before allowing marketing lies...um I mean brilliant marketing?

It really annoys me, I say standardize or get rid of the old system and only allow lofts or require that the lofts be prevalently displayed on the club.
 
I understand your frustration but I do not think that standardizing is the answer. By nature I am leary of regulatory bodies as once they accomplish what their stated goals are the search and create problems to justify their existence.

Golf is beautiful in that nature imposes it's own rules upon the game in what we commonly understand as phsyics. As you pointed out club makers, or more specifically club makers wanting to sell new clubs figured out that eventually it becomes impossible to keep adding yards to distances each season without strengthening the lofts. Is it misleading? I would say that it falls into a grey area because with the advent of the internet it takes minimal effort to find out the lofts. A brand new player probably does not care what the loft is of a specific club and a more experienced player should spend at least a minimal amount of time researching the product. With that said I would not mind seeing irons identified by lofts but I don't think forcing companies to do it is a great idea. Just look at this groove debacle that golf's regulatory body has created.

I don't follow where you are going with the golf ball line of thought but I generally disagree with modes of thinking that will stymie technological advancement. I think that guy that jumped ship from Scratch had irons numbered by degree only, so who knows what the future will hold.

john
 
I don't mean to suggest to stymie technological advancement at all. What I mean by the modern golf ball designs is say, if you took an older golf ball and hit it with a 48* iron, you would get a certain amount of spin/performance from the ball, but with the advancement in ball design you can hit a modern premium ball with say a 44* iron (or more) and get the same spin/performance...

I agree with being leery of regulatory authorities but there are times when standardization should be explored. Is the USGA right with the COR regulations, depends on who you ask. Modern technology wouldn't make much of a difference in COR, at least according to Wishon (and I believe Maltby falls in this) but future technology it may make a bigger difference in distance (now, maybe a couple of yards or four, in the future???). When it comes to distance you'd have to factor in the courses and how they can expand and what that expansion would entail. Groove rule, probably ridiculous since it doesn't really have that much of an effect on the game; everyone has the technology at hand and the only thing that would affect other areas in the game is probably length of rough.

If standardization of lofts was in affect, then we'd actually be able to see the advancement of technology on the game, so it wouldn't stymie technology, but would weed out the junk from the gem.

(I don't know if I'm rambling, hopefully this clarifies/makes some sense)
 
I dont agree with standardization and I also dont agree that advancement has stopped like many people do. I guess my thought is who cares? Who cares that a 7 iron loft is not the same as it once was. That is why they are selling sets in 4-GW instead of 3-PW.

In my opinion the only people that seem to make a big deal about this are those that play traditional clubs (blades, etc...) with traditional lofts. Outside of that, nobody really seems to care one way or another.
 
I think having lofts identified on the clubs would be great. But once I play the clubs a few times I have a pretty good idea of the distances and trajectories they will produce.
 
I am not sure standardization and applying the lofts to the club head makes sense in an environment where some are likely to have lofts modified by a club fitter anyway. All the club types seem to be advancing at quite a pace. I guess if that is a problem for someone, nobody is going to stop a guy from playing an older set of clubs.
 
I don't think it matters too much what the lofts/club are. It doesn't change anything on the course. It doesn't matter if you hit a 7-iron 150 yards or an 8-iron. Just so you know what club to pull that goes 150 is all that is important.

It would be nice to see the loft imprinted on the head or maybe a shaft band so that if you are demoing a club, you know what to compare it to. If i demo a club and hit it differently than my current set, the first thing I do if find out the specs to see if the club is in fact better (or worse), or if it was just a loft change. How many ads are out there now that state 'our irons are longer', or something to that effect? Of course they are, they are 3º stronger than the last set. What they don't mention is that you need to buy an extra wedge now.

I think the stronger lofts are just there to make people feel better about their game. It lets them think they are hitting the ball further, which is fine. Some people will put 2 and 2 together and figure it out, others won't. At the end of the day, you have a yardage, then you pull a club to hit that yardage. It doesn't matter what the number on it is, or what the degree is, just the result.
 
StLCardsFan said:
I don't think it matters too much what the lofts/club are. It doesn't change anything on the course. It doesn't matter if you hit a 7-iron 150 yards or an 8-iron. Just so you know what club to pull that goes 150 is all that is important.
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I agree with you for the experienced golfer. However I think for new golfers and higher handicaps, confidence drastically goes up between a 6 and 7 iron.
 
I'm of the ilk that doesn't care.If I have a set where I hit he 9 iron 120 yds and another set where I hit the 7 iron 120 yds when I need a 120 yd shot to the green depending on which set I have in play it will be either a 7 or 9 iron.I guess what I'm trying to say is know how far you can hit a given club and use it when you're in that given range.It really doesn't matter what number is stamped on the sole.
 
I agree. 6 iron can be the highest iron some people have before they get to the hybrid zone.
JB said:
I agree with you for the experienced golfer. However I think for new golfers and higher handicaps, confidence drastically goes up between a 6 and 7 iron.
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I for one like the numbered system and dont really care what the loft of the club is as long as I know how far I can hit it. This game; the clubs and balls will continue to evolve as technology does. Thank goodness.
 
SeeMoreGuy said:
I for one like the numbered system and dont really care what the loft of the club is as long as I know how far I can hit it. This game; the clubs and balls will continue to evolve as technology does. Thank goodness.
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+1 well said. I want to play what's best for me. The numbers are just a reference point for me.
 
From a shopping/demo'ing standpoint having the lofts on the clubs sure would be nice. But once I own them I don't really care. My x iron will go y and that's all I need to know.

I'll tell you where I'd like to see more loft and less iron # info. - on TV the next time they tell me DJ is hitting a 240 yard 5 iron uphill to which I say to my TV, "Yeah, ok what's the loft on that there 5 iron 8*?" Just sayin...
 
Flooder said:
I'll tell you where I'd like to see more loft and less iron # info. - on TV the next time they tell me DJ is hitting a 240 yard 5 iron uphill to which I say to my TV, "Yeah, ok what's the loft on that there 5 iron 8*?" Just sayin...
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So you dont believe he can hit a driver over 400 yards? Or hit a driver 340 consistently? I mean surely if he can do that based on SS and loft, he can hit a 5 iron ridiculous lengths too. I have watched THP member biggsy hit 5 irons close to that length quite a few times.

I guess I look at tour pros numbers like I do every other exceptional athlete. They are doing things that amateurs cannot do. Its not the same game, just like Lebron with a basketball, Randy Johnson throwing a baseball, or Federer hitting a tennis ball.
 
JB said:
So you dont believe he can hit a driver over 400 yards? Or hit a driver 340 consistently? I mean surely if he can do that based on SS and loft, he can hit a 5 iron ridiculous lengths too. I have watched THP member biggsy hit 5 irons close to that length quite a few times.

I guess I look at tour pros numbers like I do every other exceptional athlete. They are doing things that amateurs cannot do. Its not the same game, just like Lebron with a basketball, Randy Johnson throwing a baseball, or Federer hitting a tennis ball.
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No, I'm not doubting it at all. My quote at the TV was just joking. But, I would love to know the loft rather than the iron # with the pros, as that would be more informative. On tv the announcers say, "He's hitting a 5 iron here." like they've actually told us something when in reality that could be anywhere from what 22* to 27* (I'm not sure what the actual range is). Then the next guy hits a 6 iron and the announcers tell us that like it's actual information, like it means the other guy doesn't hit the ball as far when that may or may not be the case at all dependent on loft. Just an observation.
 
And don't forget the shaft. They have high launch shafts, low launch shafts, stiff, regular, anything you can think of.

I know that when I take out my Evolver and put in the normal shaft I use but then put in the high launch shaft, the ball goes a LOT higher than before.

I like to know what the lofts are too, but they just dont mean what they used to. We're not comparing apples to apples anymore.
 
i think this is an interesting topic. i hear the argument all the time about how i'm hitting my 2.0 8 iron further than the X22 8 iron b/c the 2.0 8 iron is really a 6 iron. uh, no it's not, it's an 8 iron, and it's as easy to hit as an 8 iron as well. will i take the added distances? absolutely! we all play this game for different reasons. me, i play b/c i have an obsession w/breaking par, and quite frankly, these stronger lofted irons will help me do that. again, this all goes back to a similar argument in the cast vs. forged debate, and that's that this game is more about social credit than many want to admit. if a guy wants to put forged irons in his hands that are "more traditionally" lofted, so be it, i don't care, but i do have to ask, what is the "tradition" based on?

what's being failed to be recognized is that i don't think what we're told via spec sheets is always accurate in the first place. i'd be willing to bet that if i gather 20 different burner 2.0 six irons and had them checked, we may see some differing degrees of loft. not by a whole lot but i bet they would be different.

i for one don't want lofts on the bottom of the club, i like the #'s. i don't see manufacturers changing to that b/c i believe 90% of the golfing public wouldn't even know what those #'s mean.
 
When Wilson Staff (using them because they're the ones that have really irked me) markets the Di9 as the distance club and the Ci9 as the control club and states advancement in technologies, but one you look at the specs of a Di9 PW 42* and a Ci9 PW 46*, have they really made any advancements in technology for either control or distance or are they just being dishonest? If you look at their website at the Di11s and click on the specifications tab, all you get are the shaft options (at the time of last nights writing and this morning's). So what are they telling me? I don't want to single Wilson Staff out as the only company that does this, they are just on my mind because I believe they have made/make quality equipment.

Wondering if I should be offended by the traditionalist remark, or wondering if I should act offended by the traditionalist remark.


Does it matter/Is it a big deal (the loft situation)??? Yes and no.
 
c_ault said:
When Wilson Staff (using them because they're the ones that have really irked me) markets the Di9 as the distance club and the Ci9 as the control club and states advancement in technologies, but one you look at the specs of a Di9 PW 42* and a Ci9 PW 46*, have they really made any advancements in technology for either control or distance or are they just being dishonest? If you look at their website at the Di11s and click on the specifications tab, all you get are the shaft options (at the time of last nights writing and this morning's). So what are they telling me? I don't want to single Wilson Staff out as the only company that does this, they are just on my mind because I believe they have made/make quality equipment.

Wondering if I should be offended by the traditionalist remark, or wondering if I should act offended by the traditionalist remark.


Does it matter/Is it a big deal (the loft situation)??? Yes and no.
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So you believe that loft is the ONLY difference in the clubs and improvements? Different weighting, use of materials, and shaft means nothing? I mean I have all of those sets that you are speaking of here and one is longer than the other. They also offer different ball flights. Does the loft matter? Of course it does, but frankly to who?

This is my opinion and maybe only my opinion and I am not saying it to hurt anybody's feelings or put anybody down. But to me the only people that seem to get upset about this are the ones playing weaker lofts? Why? Because someone is saying they are hitting it further by them with the same iron? They are always the ones to quickly point out that it is stronger lofted. They quickly point out that they hit their 6 just as far as the stronger lofts hit their 7. And maybe they do. But who cares really?

Stronger lofts are also being able to be achieved because of better balance and weighting. Because of those advances in technology as well as TONS in shafts, people can hit lower lofts now.
 
c_ault said:
When Wilson Staff (using them because they're the ones that have really irked me) markets the Di9 as the distance club and the Ci9 as the control club and states advancement in technologies, but one you look at the specs of a Di9 PW 42* and a Ci9 PW 46*, have they really made any advancements in technology for either control or distance or are they just being dishonest? If you look at their website at the Di11s and click on the specifications tab, all you get are the shaft options (at the time of last nights writing and this morning's). So what are they telling me? I don't want to single Wilson Staff out as the only company that does this, they are just on my mind because I believe they have made/make quality equipment.

Wondering if I should be offended by the traditionalist remark, or wondering if I should act offended by the traditionalist remark.


Does it matter/Is it a big deal (the loft situation)??? Yes and no.
Click to expand...

no, you should not be offended by the remark, it was not directed at you or at anyone in particular. there are just those that definitely give out the sentiments that they don't like stronger lofted clubs, they always make the argument that it shouldn't matter if one has to hit an 8 iron or a 6 iron but i disagree completely. the differences between those two irons are huge, but mostly revolves around the actual length differences. i find the longer the club, the more that can break down or go wrong or be unsound in a swing. at any rate, i see your point, i really do, but that's marketing for you. the same way any other company in any other industry markets against their competition. do people like yourself fall for it? obviously not, but again, the vast majority of amateur golfer will (see Titleist and where they are in the golf ball game).
 
Let me add something to this. Does anybody have an outcry that some play 12 degree drivers? Or strong lofted 3 woods at 13 degrees? I dont see it. Sure the lofts are on there (not always), but it is the same thing in my opinion.

Do stronger lofts make someone hit it further? They can!

Should it matter if someone is comfortable and perhaps even gets a mental advantage for themselves? I dont think so. Lets face it, most amateurs prefer to hit 7-PW and if this helps them do that, I am all for it. In the end, I want more people playing the game and more enjoying the game. And I DONT think that the extra distance is ONLY due to strong lofts.

Does someone have an issue when someone outdrives them and they are using a shaft that is 46-47 inches and 7 degrees of loft? I dont see it, if they do. Instead we hear, well you lose control with lower lofts and longer shafts.
 
JB said:
So you believe that loft is the ONLY difference in the clubs and improvements? Different weighting, use of materials, and shaft means nothing? I mean I have all of those sets that you are speaking of here and one is longer than the other. They also offer different ball flights. Does the loft matter? Of course it does, but frankly to who?

This is my opinion and maybe only my opinion and I am not saying it to hurt anybody's feelings or put anybody down. But to me the only people that seem to get upset about this are the ones playing weaker lofts? Why? Because someone is saying they are hitting it further by them with the same iron? They are always the ones to quickly point out that it is stronger lofted. They quickly point out that they hit their 6 just as far as the stronger lofts hit their 7. And maybe they do. But who cares really?

Stronger lofts are also being able to be achieved because of better balance and weighting. Because of those advances in technology as well as TONS in shafts, people can hit lower lofts now.
Click to expand...

c_ault said:
If standardization of lofts was in affect, then we'd actually be able to see the advancement of technology on the game, so it wouldn't stymie technology, but would weed out the junk from the gem.
Click to expand...

Don't really know what else to say
 
I have been reading the post and wanted to add my two cents. I personally would really like to have my lofts on my clubs, but I don't think that it is relevant to only put lofts on there. For one thing as JB said, it would just confuse 90% of golfers out there. I mean can you see a casual golfer saying "man I just stuck my 33*!" No, plus loft is not the only consideration for what makes a 7 iron a 7 iron, you have shaft length and other factors as well. I would hate to have more regulation in golf, it is already getting out of control IMO.

As far as people playing stronger lofted clubs, I say more power to you! I am of the mind that anything that helps you enjoy the game more is a good thing. If you look back at where the popularity of the game was 20 years ago compared to today. There are so many people around the world who are enjoying this great game, and that is a good thing. One major reason people are adopting golf is because it has become easier for the average joe to enjoy. Remember 20-25 years ago the clubs that were out there were so much more difficult to hit than they are today. They were less pleasant to hit, they were less forgiving, and therefore it was less enjoyable to play. Now, there are people of all different skill levels going out everyday (most of them using perimeter weighted clubs with longer shafts and stronger lofts) and they are having a great time. Think that this is a GREAT thing for golf, and what is good for golf is good for me!
 
My .02:

The loft issue only bothers me in regards to marketing for the exact reasons many of you said none of this matters. Some manufacturers, ones I like, now are marketing irons as the "longest" when most of this comes from the fact that the lofts are strengthened to "fool" the uninformed into thinking that they have clubs that have some sort of unearthly metal in them that allows their PW to go 15 yards further than it used to.

It is the equivalent of setting your clock a half hour early to have more time. It never made sense to me. Just get your arse out of bed earlier and take a 9 instead of a PW. I guess that doesn't sell iron sets though.
 
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