Off Course is back this week with a fantastic show including discussing some polarizing topics including Jack Nicklaus being full of it and is golf etiquette dead. Hosted by Dan Edwards and Rob Miller, each Friday the hosts give you a deep look into the world of golf and equipment in a way unlike any other podcast has done before.
Episode 14 is here and Rob and Dan discuss the following topics.
Jack is Full of It
Golf Etiquette Being Dead
Is Distance a Skill?
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9429102, member: 2320″]
I added a bunker.
[/QUOTE]
ahhh. I see it now.
[QUOTE=”HipCheck, post: 9428999, member: 58068″]
Pro golfers no longer have to play courses like architects designed. You don’t have to be a worker of the ball anymore. You just need to hit numbers.
[/QUOTE]
Completely agree. That’s why Bryson wins every tournament. Oh….wait……
ahh, adding more fairway bunkers, every amateur’s favorite.
[QUOTE=”Tevenor, post: 9429114, member: 55541″]
Completely agree. That’s why Bryson wins every tournament. Oh….wait……
[/QUOTE]
Not even Tiger won them all. But he won 45% of his starts under Haney, which is mind-blowing. If he NEVER 3-putted (Stevie Williams kept stats), he would have won 85% of his starts under Hank. That’s outrageous.
[QUOTE=”baylrballa, post: 9429124, member: 52381″]
ahh, adding more fairway bunkers, every amateur’s favorite.
[/QUOTE]
Fairway bunkers kill amateurs, just like bunkers 30 yards from the green. They seen no purpose except to punish ams.
Gentlemen I think this could be your best Off Course yet.
I agree with [USER=2320]@Canadan[/USER] that when approaching another group, especially in the teeing area you need to stay back out of sight, if only to avoid the visual intimidation factor that so many golfers experience (think first tee when there are other golfers around) To not only arrive at, but announce your presence by bypassing another cart and/or golfer is just blatant disregard for etiquette (aka respect).
The Top Golf subject is also quite interesting; we don’t have these locally however I think it is aimed at being a gateway for those who might not feel comfortable/have the skills/desire to play a regulation golf course. The point of Top Golf IMO is not to practice – it’s to go out and have a good time with a group of friends and you just happen to have the ability to hit golf balls should you so choose. Now, if someone enjoys it and decides they want to try the big course, the next logical step would be a regular driving range, followed by a small course where the basics of etiquette can be explained.
Can’t wait to hear next week’s episode!
EDIT: I’m going to be gunning for my 20% this weekend during my round.
[QUOTE=”HipCheck, post: 9429126, member: 58068″]
Not even Tiger won them all. But he won 45% of his starts under Haney, which is mind-blowing. If he NEVER 3-putted (Stevie Williams kept stats), he would have won 85% of his starts under Hank. That’s outrageous.
[/QUOTE]
Did you just really compare Bryson to Tiger? o_O
During the time frame and all those wins, Tiger never lead the PGA in average driving distance. During the Haney years, Tiger only hit the top 10 in average driver distances 3 times, and only in the top 5 once. Its almost like the distance helped, but it was something else that really helped him win.
I kind of want to put this out there…
If Tiger came out from the Rona-close bombing the ball as far as Bryson is with as much accuracy as Bryson is, would he not be celebrated for it? Kind of reminds me of the earlier stages of his career, when he Bryson’d the field (albeit way less accurate).
Same for Jack, actually.
[QUOTE=”baylrballa, post: 9429124, member: 52381″]
ahh, adding more fairway bunkers, every amateur’s favorite.
[/QUOTE]
Well, yes and no.
Since the percentage of amateurs who can achieve that kind of distance and/or accuracy is minuscule, they wouldn’t be impacted at all – right?
Giant. Fans.
?
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9429188, member: 2320″]
Well, yes and no.
Since the percentage of amateurs who can achieve that kind of distance and/or accuracy is minuscule, they wouldn’t be impacted at all – right?
[/QUOTE]
That makes way too much sense to be considered.
Instead its easier to not watch, see 400+ yard drives and demand a ball change :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9429188, member: 2320″]
Well, yes and no.
Since the percentage of amateurs who can achieve that kind of distance and/or accuracy is minuscule, they wouldn’t be impacted at all – right?
[/QUOTE]
i was unaware all amateurs played the bryson tee boxes.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9429188, member: 2320″]
Well, yes and no.
Since the percentage of amateurs who can achieve that kind of distance and/or accuracy is minuscule, they wouldn’t be impacted at all – right?
[/QUOTE]
It would be even easier and cheaper to add a bit of spritz to the fairways so the were not runways.
In regards to Jack I’m going to throw this out there and probably get my head tore off.
It’s age. I love my grandpa, he has since passed a few years ago, but the older an individual gets, the more they get something stuck in their head and it’s not changing and they will fight tooth and nail over it. Dead set in a way that may be stuck in their mind. I had experienced it first hand with my grandfather.
At some point there needs to come a time where an individual says you know what, I’m not going to meddle with what I can’t control. Unless that’s the issue of controlment.
[QUOTE=”baylrballa, post: 9429206, member: 52381″]
i was unaware all amateurs played the bryson tee boxes.
[/QUOTE]
Bryson went over trees, bunkers, and rough.
If Am’s are taking the same line as he did, regardless of the tee selection, I have a hard time sympathizing.
[QUOTE=”NVGOLFER80, post: 9429207, member: 53139″]
It would be even easier and cheaper to add a bit of spritz to the fairways so the were not runways.
[/QUOTE]
Wouldn’t that be crazy?!
So like.. the 20% total distance they are talking about dumping using a distance limiting golf ball…
vs the 20% of total distance from roll they are currently getting.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9429218, member: 2320″]
Wouldn’t that be crazy?!
So like.. the 20% total distance they are talking about dumping using a distance limiting golf ball…
vs the 20% of total distance from roll they are currently getting.
[/QUOTE]
But isn’t the argument that they’re not playing courses as designed? Bryson could still cut the corner, get his 340 carry, and only get 20 yards of rollout.
[QUOTE=”RealPretendPsychic, post: 9429219, member: 57192″]
But isn’t the argument that they’re not playing courses as designed? Bryson could still cut the corner, get his 340 carry, and only get 20 yards of rollout.
[/QUOTE]
Far be it from me to say it’s a poorly designed hole if he can freely do that, but, here we are.
Also, I watched others with similar driving strength attempt the same thing and fall short.
We can also pretend that he didn’t have a 20mph wind at his back, but he did.
I enjoyed listening this morning. There are several things that they could do to limit distance (and roll) but they choose not to on the PGA tour. Bryson’s drives notwithstanding, the numbers on Phil’s iron (333 total) are mind boggling. I believe Dan stated that Phil got more than 60 yards of roll. Even downwind, an iron shot should not go that far.
Having played both semi-private courses, I am of the opinion that less etiquette is displayed, as general rule, on the semi-private courses. I can speculate, but need not list, the reasons for this.
[QUOTE=”Bernoulli, post: 9429230, member: 42734″]
I enjoyed listening this morning. There are several things that they could do to limit distance (and roll) but they choose not to on the PGA tour. Bryson’s drives notwithstanding, the numbers on Phil’s iron (333 total) are mind boggling. I believe Dan stated that Phil got more than 60 yards of roll. Even downwind, an iron shot should not go that far.
Having played both semi-private courses, I am of the opinion that less etiquette is displayed, as general rule, on the semi-private courses. I can speculate, but need not list, the reasons for this.
[/QUOTE]
I was watching the coverage not ten minutes before recording when Phil did that hahaha.
I’m assuming it’s a 2 iron from a slightly elevated box which doesn’t make 270 all that surprising, but 63 yards of roll? What a joke. The ball bounced like it was on a concrete jungle.
[QUOTE=”RealPretendPsychic, post: 9429219, member: 57192″]
But isn’t the argument that they’re not playing courses as designed? Bryson could still cut the corner, get his 340 carry, and only get 20 yards of rollout.
[/QUOTE]
If everything in the world changes around the course, then the course would need to be changed. I understand some don’t like that argument, but that course still isn’t charging 5 cents for a burger either. They evolve and adapt.
If you’re following my questions here, I’m clearly lost in this argument and don’t really have an opinion on it. While softer fairways would reduce roll, wouldn’t they make it easier for players to attack holes with driver? I’m seeing a bunch of shots on these hard fairways roll out into the rough.
[QUOTE=”RealPretendPsychic, post: 9429219, member: 57192″]
But isn’t the argument that they’re not playing courses as designed? Bryson could still cut the corner, get his 340 carry, and only get 20 yards of rollout.
[/QUOTE]
But why is that a bad thing? He put in the work, bulked up, was able to incorporate it into his game. If he can cut a corner and have a 9i in vs someone hitting around the corner and having a 6i in, good for him.
Golf is more than just a distance game. I agree with the R&A chief that its a skills game ( not the rest of his ludicrous statement ) but at the end of the day its not how you get off the tee, it’s how you get in the hole. Will Bryson have an easier time? Yup. Just like Rory, DJ, Finau, Tiger, etc etc etc. But they still have to execute on all aspects of the game, not just one, to win.
Its hypocritical to complain that they are hitting the ball to far and then give them a fairway that rolls out 70+ yards. The course conditions are something that are tuneable by the PGA and the sponsors of the tournament. The huge swing in Muirfield proves that in back to back weeks. Leverage it more and complain about the 1% of pro golfers less.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9429218, member: 2320″]
Wouldn’t that be crazy?!
So like.. the 20% total distance they are talking about dumping using a distance limiting golf ball…
vs the 20% of total distance from roll they are currently getting.
[/QUOTE]
I know, total out of the box thinking. The only issue with slowing things down is that accuracy is less important. I am not for tricked up US open courses every week.
I think we should all just accept that these guys are good, and par is irrelevant.
[QUOTE=”Tevenor, post: 9429244, member: 55541″]
But why is that a bad thing? He put in the work, bulked up, was able to incorporate it into his game. If he can cut a corner and have a 9i in vs someone hitting around the corner and having a 6i in, good for him.
Golf is more than just a distance game. I agree with the R&A chief that its a skills game ( not the rest of his ludicrous statement ) but at the end of the day its not how you get off the tee, it’s how you get in the hole. Will Bryson have an easier time? Yup. Just like Rory, DJ, Finau, Tiger, etc etc etc. But they still have to execute on all aspects of the game, not just one, to win.
Its hypocritical to complain that they are hitting the ball to far and then give them a fairway that rolls out 70+ yards. The course conditions are something that are tuneable by the PGA and the sponsors of the tournament. The huge swing in Muirfield proves that in back to back weeks. Leverage it more and complain about the 1% of pro golfers less.
[/QUOTE]
I fully agree! Bryson was bombing it yesterday and finished 7 strokes back! And for those who argue that it destroys the creativity of the game, is it not creative to find a new angle and take the risk to hit that shot? Knowing golf, we’re likely headed toward some sort of over complicated solution that further alienates the game from the common weekend hacker. I really hope I’m wrong in that assessment.
[QUOTE=”Tevenor, post: 9429244, member: 55541″]
But why is that a bad thing? He put in the work, bulked up, was able to incorporate it into his game. If he can cut a corner and have a 9i in vs someone hitting around the corner and having a 6i in, good for him.
Golf is more than just a distance game. I agree with the R&A chief that its a skills game ( not the rest of his ludicrous statement ) but at the end of the day its not how you get off the tee, it’s how you get in the hole. Will Bryson have an easier time? Yup. Just like Rory, DJ, Finau, Tiger, etc etc etc. But they still have to execute on all aspects of the game, not just one, to win.
Its hypocritical to complain that they are hitting the ball to far and then give them a fairway that rolls out 70+ yards. The course conditions are something that are tuneable by the PGA and the sponsors of the tournament. The huge swing in Muirfield proves that in back to back weeks. Leverage it more and complain about the 1% of pro golfers less.
[/QUOTE]
That still goes back to my original argument. Jack was able to punish the ball and hit angles few on tour could, and done with precision. Now that more followed his footsteps, he has an issue with it, despite profiting from it the entire time.
[QUOTE=”RealPretendPsychic, post: 9429240, member: 57192″]
If you’re following my questions here, I’m clearly lost in this argument and don’t really have an opinion on it. While softer fairways would reduce roll, wouldn’t they make it easier for players to attack holes with driver? I’m seeing a bunch of shots on these hard fairways roll out into the rough.
[/QUOTE]
well sure if the rough actually penalized players haha. They don’t have any issue hitting it out of it though
Edit: Also to expand, even though driver could be the play more often, with less roll, they theoretically would be forced to change tee strategy and/or play longer clubs into green making it “tougher,” on paper of course haha. These guys are good though soooooo
Here [USER=2320]@Canadan[/USER] I will fix your issue for you. So golfers all around the world can still look to pros for their equipment.
No club longer than 40″ in high level competition.
Done.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 9429301, member: 3″]
Here [USER=2320]@Canadan[/USER] I will fix your issue for you. So golfers all around the world can still look to pros for their equipment.
No club longer than 40″ in high level competition.
Done.
[/QUOTE]
but then they aren’t playing the same shafts :ROFLMAO:
I present to you, the horror of it all…
[ATTACH type=”full” width=”557px” alt=”1595011318030.png”]8953858[/ATTACH]
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9429541, member: 2320″]
I present to you, the horror of it all…
[ATTACH type=”full” width=”557px” alt=”1595011318030.png”]8953858[/ATTACH]
[/QUOTE]
hahahahhaahahahahahahahah.
[QUOTE=”NVGOLFER80, post: 9429544, member: 53139″]
hahahahhaahahahahahahahah.
[/QUOTE]
[ATTACH type=”full”]8953859[/ATTACH]
I cannot wait to listen to this at the gym later.
[QUOTE=”OldandStiff, post: 9429559, member: 53737″]
I cannot wait to listen to this at the gym later.
[/QUOTE]
Careful not to hurt yourself, it gets pretty fiery!
[QUOTE=”RealPretendPsychic, post: 9429562, member: 57192″]
Careful not to hurt yourself, it gets pretty fiery!
[/QUOTE]
Oh, I learned the don’t-listen-to-this-madness-with-heavy-weights-hovering-above-you lesson already. It’s leg day though, so I think I’ll risk it.
Great episode, just roll back the mover and a lot of this is solved..
Great podcast today guys! No need for an equipment change make the courses hard they are pro’s.
Wasn’t Jack on board with all sorts of lunacy they were proposing like 7 hole loops and crapola?
He’s a 1%’er and sure acts like and supports his much wealthier peers. Sad to see.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 9429076, member: 2320″]
I have legitimately never seen a group do that before. It was like each tee box was a stop light, and they weren’t even giving up two cart lengths.
….which would be fine if they weren’t busy chatting away about nonsense while my group hit.
[/QUOTE]
I had a group yesterday roll up “past” our carts next to the green we had just exited. We had nowhere to go as the next group was on the tee box next to us and us moving would have interfered with their teeing off. We eventually had to leave the cart path to get around the carts from the group that is supposed to be behind us. This is also on a nicer public course.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 9429260, member: 3″]
That still goes back to my original argument. Jack was able to punish the ball and hit angles few on tour could, and done with precision. Now that more followed his footsteps, he has an issue with it, despite profiting from it the entire time.
[/QUOTE]
Back from golfing (and also played some golf) so I need to catch up on this thread, BUT…
If you listen to his commentary yesterday, DLIII was telling Jack how he should change his course. Jack brushed it all aside and said basically that if he wanted to hit it higher in his heyday over trees to cut a hole, he could. There’s just going to be differences between players and if they can do it, more power to them. To my knowledge, he earned zero dollars from this statement.
[QUOTE=”HipCheck, post: 9429728, member: 58068″]
Back from golfing (and also played some golf) so I need to catch up on this thread, BUT…
If you listen to his commentary yesterday, DLIII was telling Jack how he should change his course. Jack brushed it all aside and said basically that if he wanted to hit it higher in his heyday over trees to cut a hole, he could. There’s just going to be differences between players and if they can do it, more power to them. To my knowledge, he earned zero dollars from this statement.
[/QUOTE]
So in other words….Jack being Jack.
He knows everything, everybody else is wrong and his designs should not have to adapt to modern golfers.
Got it
[QUOTE=”HipCheck, post: 9429728, member: 58068″]
Back from golfing (and also played some golf) so I need to catch up on this thread, BUT…
If you listen to his commentary yesterday, DLIII was telling Jack how he should change his course. Jack brushed it all aside and said basically that if he wanted to hit it higher in his heyday over trees to cut a hole, he could. There’s just going to be differences between players and if they can do it, more power to them. To my knowledge, he earned zero dollars from this statement.
[/QUOTE]
Somehow I doubt that Jack in his hey day wouldn’t have taken advantage of his distance against the field by not leveraging every opportunity possible. That includes cutting a corner or two.
adding this to the bourbon and fire activities after PGA coverage is done and wife has gone to sleep!
I’m at ‘golf cart stymie’, and my impression so far is that Dan gets to play a very different kind of golf than the masses.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 9429735, member: 3″]
So in other words….Jack being Jack.
He knows everything, everybody else is wrong and his designs should not have to adapt to modern golfers.
Got it
[/QUOTE]
This is the first thing Jack has said in a long time that I agree with. Some players have a physical or even mental gift for the game.
It’s not like the other guys aren’t working out and hitting it bonzo long too. Even Justin Thomas is bombing it out there. It’s a young man’s game.
What I fear happening with the “distance” narrtaive, once again, is supposed invalidation of golf courses for their lack of length and supposed suitability for the “modern” game. Using this to bulldoze even say a Donald Ross gem in the name of development. Too many courses hang in limbo right now, and I fear especially for city/county owned courses. These are the playing fields for everyday people like you and me. Smaller private courses have been sold off, sometimes purchased by unions, city entities, etc. They are massive landholders at this point, especially when you add in parklands and parks systems, city buildings, etc.
Golf courses make better townhome developments in the minds of some. (n):unsure:
I did hear courses are setting revenue records with everyone playing again thanks to Covid. Kinda backfired. :love::love:
Where are the golf entities promoting golf now, by the way? I see the USTA is promoting playing tennis. (y)
Solid. Top 10 episode of all time.
#rollbacktheball
[QUOTE=”blueonblack, post: 9429890, member: 59096″]
This is the first thing Jack has said in a long time that I agree with. Some players have a physical or even mental gift for the game.
It’s not like the other guys aren’t working out and hitting it bonzo long too. Even Justin Thomas is bombing it out there. It’s a young man’s game.
What I fear happening with the “distance” narrtaive, once again, is supposed invalidation of golf courses for their lack of length and supposed suitability for the “modern” game. Using this to bulldoze even say a Donald Ross gem in the name of development. Too many courses hang in limbo right now, and I fear especially for city/county owned courses. These are the playing fields for everyday people like you and me. Smaller private courses have been sold off, sometimes purchased by unions, city entities, etc. They are massive landholders at this point, especially when you add in parklands and parks systems, city buildings, etc.
Golf courses make better townhome developments in the minds of some. (n):unsure:
I did hear courses are setting revenue records with everyone playing again thanks to Covid. Kinda backfired. :love::love:
Where are the golf entities promoting golf now, by the way? I see the USTA is promoting playing tennis. (y)
[/QUOTE]
Guessing you have not listened to the show…Very little of this has anything to do with Off Course :ROFLMAO:
I have never podcasted. Seemed as relevant a topic for the commentary as any involving distance, course design, state of the game, equipment, etc.
I guess each one could be its own topic. But even I don’t want to hear from me that many times. 😉
These are all topics that come up again and again. I haven’t followed the game much for many years and not a lot has changed in that time. Same conversations and considerations for the game of golf.
I will add that the governing bodies are interjecting themselves any way they can to maintain [B]relevence[/B].
Frankly, what we discuss here drives the game a lot, and we can make the game anything we want it to be, so long as we have venues and access to play.
[QUOTE=”OldandStiff, post: 9429794, member: 53737″]
I’m at ‘golf cart stymie’, and my impression so far is that Dan gets to play a very different kind of golf than the masses.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I try to avoid rolling up behind people, but I literally don’t care one bit if someone does it to me. I would say at least 1 in 4 groups will roll up right behind my tee box. Also, it seems unreasonable to harp about their etiquette when you never talked to them about it during the round.
Loved the episode guys! The distance talk is such a frustrating one. The argument about Bryson using the same equipment yet gaining that much yardage is all that needs to be said. You can’t combat the shape that these guys are in.
Designers also need to become more creative and tweak course conditions so they aren’t so beneficial to the players.
Also, Jack is a jackhole.