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Overly difficult hole

I'm playing a course this Sat that measures 6820 from the white tees. I don't hit a long ball (225-240 driver) and there are a few 400+ yard par 4s but I like the challenge. Driver - 5 iron or hybrid is fun some times. The 245 yard par 3, over a creek, is a fun hole also. I refuse to hit driver there but I can get the 3 wood there or at least over the creek. As long as ALL the par 4s aren't 400+ yards, I'm ok with it.
 
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Interesting debate... The 4 hardest holes on my course -from the tips- (in my opinion) are as follows:

18th: 473 yards - Par 4 - Entire hole runs with water on left, with zero bailout as the approach is hit over water, with only a bunker behind the hole
1st: 443 yards - Par 4 - Entire hole filters left to right, with hazard/stream running along entire right side of hole. Approach shot has stream on right and bunker on left.
13th: 466 yards - Par 4 - HUGE fairway, but almost always a long iron into the green, which has a massive bunker on the front side.
8th: 335 yards - Par 4 - Here's where the anomaly is... Short par 4, to the point where some days I am punching my 54* wedge onto the green, HOWEVER, both side of the hole are Hazard(left)/OB(Right), it's slightly uphill, the green it two tiered, and there are steep bunkers covering 3 of the 4 sides of the green (excluding the left side). It is a nemesis of mine.

I think without question, distance is a major factor.. There are a handful of holes on my course that I can play wedges into the green, with hazards wrapping the hole, but I'd NEVER rate them more difficult than the 4 I've mentioned..
 
I agree with many of the thoughts in here, length alone won't get it, but hole design can. I really am ok with hitting a 5 iron into the green, but the front better be open, because I'm not necessarily planning on sticking the green.
 
I'd much rather be hitting a 6i or 7i into a green than a PW. The shorter Par 4's give me more trouble than the ones that require driver/wedge. Just doesnt appeal to me.

420 isn't that difficult imo.

One-T said:
I dont think 420 is overly difficult. Not every par 4 is 420, courses are designed for you to hit all the clubs in you rbag. Hence the reason there are 14 of them.
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Our pro has always said that the old rule of thumb has been that if you can't hit a par 4 green in regulation on a regular bases, you are playing from the wrong set of tee's. A 420 yard hole with a par of 4 is pretty average.
 
Yoccos1981 said:
I'd much rather be hitting a 6i or 7i into a green than a PW. The shorter Par 4's give me more trouble than the ones that require driver/wedge. Just doesnt appeal to me.

420 isn't that difficult imo.
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I have a fairly big drive (280-300) and its fun to play long par 4's. I like being able to hit 7-8I into the green vs my forged wedge all the time. Par 4's for me (even from the tips at my local course) seem to all be between 350-390. That generally is driver/wedge for me. The few holes that are 420+ are a lot of fun. One of my favorite holes is 465 yards with trees guarding the right approach and thick rough on the left. Have to land in the middle or hit a really high shot over the trees.
 
I don't mind a few long par 4's, but I prefer a nice mix, which is what I feel my home course has.
As others have said, distance is far from the only factor that determines the difficulty of a hole.
A 350 yard par 4 can play longer than a 450 yard par 4, depending on elevation changes, doglegs, water, etc...
 
Hrmmm well, we have one on my home course that is easily anything from 4h to 6i second shot depending on wind/drive/roll/etc. I hit driver 4h on it pretty often. It's also, rightly, the #1 handicap hole. The hole immediately after is, for me, driver/chip/putt. I've driven that green a few times. So you get an easy one for a hard one.
 
McRock said:
I agree with many of the thoughts in here, length alone won't get it, but hole design can. I really am ok with hitting a 5 iron into the green, but the front better be open, because I'm not necessarily planning on sticking the green.
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Yeah if there is a run up, then I'm ok with it. But to have a long par 4 with a bunker in front is bushleague. The course would not be designed for repeat buisiness if they had a lot of long par 4s with trouble in front.
 
I both courses in my town and oneplays long par 4s and the other is realy short. I dont have a fav for length because that is one of the callenges of golf, by not always being the same. If was easy every one would play the game.
 
In my honest yet uneducated opinion, if it is a course that you play regularly, move back a set of tees or two. My home course gets boring playing the same tees, becaue i know my iron before i get to my ball. It is fun to hit different irons, and different shots, whether you are a 20 or a 2. Theres a hole at Champions Gate..i think its 14 thats a par3, but depending on tees/wind can play from a 4 iron to almost a driver. Thats a little much though, but tis fun
 
I don't think a 420 yd par 4 is unfair based soley on distance. A good course should test all of your shots at least once, and needing to hit a good drive and then a 4-5 iron into a par 4 is not unreasonable once or twice per round. If every hole feels that way to you then you are playing too far back and need to move up a tee box or two. A good course should be a mix of distances on all holes.
 
its fine to have some long par 4s on a course if there is variety. I don't think a bunker in front is bush league at all. If its on of the lower handicap holes on the course, bogey is a good (or at least expected) score for a mid to high handicapper.
 
SVGCHacker said:
its fine to have some long par 4s on a course if there is variety. I don't think a bunker in front is bush league at all. If its on of the lower handicap holes on the course, bogey is a good (or at least expected) score for a mid to high handicapper.
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Exactly, and you don't have to hit the green in regulation to make a par.
 
My local courses par 4s and how it plays if you hit driver 220-240 yards
1) 390 dogleg left, hit it straight or a draw and it runs downhill so plays shorter than listed yardage
3) 325 straight drive/shot leaves wedge in easiest par 4
5) 385 90*dogleg right, hit perfect 200 yard shot or run through into woods, come up short and you land in a ditch that leaves a 160-200 yard blind shot that must slice to a very difficult saddle back green, hit back half of green and ball skips into woods
7) 368 bunker in landing area makes you play short or hit perfect drive, not a killer hole but heaviest most in play bunkering of any hole on course, lay up and your playing from 170 out
9) 356 easier drive but bunkering around green keeps any second shot miss in sand, not killer
10) 412 dogleg left 220 yard tee shot to carry massive fairway bunker with large back wall that leaves short iron out only option if in the sand, lay up and your hitting 200 yards to a small opening into the green between bunkers, go right or run through the turn and your playing out of trees and heavy rough, depressing on days they start you on back nine and you are not warmed up
12) 353 fairway bunker right and trees left make layup smart play unless you can draw the ball, still easier hole as it is short enough
14) 363 fairway bunker left and trees right leave narrow slot to drive through, lay up and you are 180 out to another difficult saddle green to land on, anything on back half skips into woods
16) 425 90*dogleg left around large pond, 240 to carry water, land it 220 into a narrow slot between water left rough right (right rough leaves 200 yard downhill lie out of heavy rough with water in play left and right if you come up short with second shot) and then they put the most difficult green on the course on this hole if flag is in back third on fast days ball will not stop near hole (we have picked up and moved on after three putts) perfect tee shot leaves 180 in
18) 380 perfect tee shot of 220 leaves you 160 to a hilltop green heavily guarded by bunkers, 200 layup leaves you hitting 180 and 240 leaves you on a steep downhill lie hitting up to hilltop green not killer but get either shot wrong and you are looking at double real quick

Every green but #5 guarded both sides by large bunkers so when course dries up and you have to run a ball into green you have a narrow slot to run through, these greens are also some of the most heavily sloped/toughest in our area so many grow weary of three putting so often.

For those who say move up a tee, I've done it and it really doesn't change much as so many of holes leave no option but to lay up and you have the same second shot as you would from any other teebox. There are times this course just wears me out and I stay away for a while, carries a slope of 122 but there are days it feels like 132+. If I could carry 240 off the tee I think it would play so much easier but that isn't going to happen as I'm getting shorter in my old age. With the removal of some fairway bunkers it would be so much more enjoyable to play, to score well every aspect of your game has to really be on.
 
I agree with most that length certainly isn't everything in terms of making a hole difficult. Look at the 17th at Sawgrass how many pros are hitting in the water on that hole every year and it is only 140 yards long.

A course I play regularly has a 454yd par4 that doesn't allow me to hit driver off the tee because of a creek that runs through the hole, with a slight down hill before it, meaning if I hit a good drive it is going in. I end up hitting 3w/2i off the tee and a anywhere from a 4 - 6 iron in. I have taken a 5 on the hole way more times than I have taken a 4 on it but the very next hole is a shot 300yd par 4 that you can run a good drive onto. So as long as there is a balance I don't have problem with a couple long par 4s

I did play a course last season from the tips that played 7200 yards way to long for me but I wanted to see how I would score and there was no-one out there. I hit driver and a lot of hybrids into greens that day, which if I had to do that all the time would get tiring but like I said it was tips from the blues or whites it would have been much more manageable.
 
The thing I love about my course is the variety in the par 4's. We have 3 really long par 4's (450yds-485yds), 4 that play less than 400 yards, and 3 that play 400-420 yards. I feel like I use every club in my bag during a round, as opposed to just driver then wedge in. Of course, my issue with the longer par 4s is the greens are way too severe but that falls into the discussion around design. The front of the greens are open, and only one of the long par 4s has bunkers around the green.
 
blugold said:
Last night I was in a very heated discussion with a friend regarding hole design. It started when I said that I thought that a 420 yard par 4 was too long. I was accused of being a pansy and a complainer. He said, "420, you need a good 250 yard driver, then you have 170." 5 iron for him. He said that a hole that is driver/pitching wedge is just as difficult because you can still miss the green with the wedge. I had to say that although possible to miss the green with a PW, it was a lot less likely, even for a 16+ handicap.

His response was, "If you want par on a 420 yard par 4, then you need to hit 2 really good shots and two putt. Which is fair." I said he was nuts. I told him that the green better be accepting and not protected by bunkers or water.

My friend asked, "Why wouldn't you want to play a course that's a challenge?" I said that I didn't want to have to be going driver/5iron on more than one par 4 a round. Because it would get old having to scramble for bogey and double every hole.

What are you opinions on courses/holes that are overly difficult. Does it get tiring? Is a difficult course more or less likely to get your repeat business?
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Any well designed golf course should have a good mix of holes. That includes long and short par 4 holes. You should have to use every club in your bag on a typical round. I don't see 420 as excessive, and I'm not a long hitter. We have two par 4 holes on the back 9 of my home course which are longer than that (430 and 450 from the blue tees), although at a mile high, they don't play any longer than a 420 yard hole at a lower elevation. I don't like a course which puts you in the position of having to play a fairway wood approach on half the par 4 holes on the course. That is carrying the theme to the ridiculous. But having driver - SW on an equal number of holes is equally bad.

The middle tee yardage on the par 4 holes on my home course are:

#1 - 358
#3 - 398
#5 - 406
#7 - 340
#9 - 360
#10 - 355
#12 - 434
#14 - 383
#15 - 399
#18 - 421

I find it to be a great mix, and it is more varied that it appears due to certain considerations that make driver from every tee a possibly risky move. When I add in the 8 holes which aren't par 4, I use every club in just about every round. Makes for a course which I have never tired of in the 30 years I've been playing there.
 
I hate long anything. One of our local courses has a stretch with 3 or 4 par 4's over the 400 yard mark. It generally eats me alive. Not the length as much as the length + doglegs + hazards.
 
I like a mix, my home course has one par 4 at 438 and another at 439 (middle tees). There are some short ones too and I like the challenge.
 
blugold said:
Yeah if there is a run up, then I'm ok with it. But to have a long par 4 with a bunker in front is bushleague. The course would not be designed for repeat buisiness if they had a lot of long par 4s with trouble in front.
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#1 handicap hole at my home course is 440yd (middle tees, longer from the tips) par 4, no dogleg, a fairway bunker on the right side to catch the slicers at about average driver range (must be in a good spot because it catches a lot of them), an elevated green with bunkers front, right, left and back. love that hole.

most times it is driver, 3h but if i really get a hold of one it can be driver, 5I, and sometime if I hit a bad drive or second shot i play it like a 3 shot par 4 and try to get that wedge close and one putt for par. par is an excellent score there and sometime you feel lucky to walk away with just a bogie...

I dont think every hole has to give you a good look at a bird just a fair chance of getting par if you play it right, golf doesn't owe you a look at bird every hole

Also Tom Fazio designed that hole so not sure i would not consider it bush league
 
ohnonotagain said:
I dont think every hole has to give you a good look at a bird just a fair chance of getting par if you play it right, golf doesn't owe you a look at bird every hole
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To me, the hole has to give a reasonable expectation to reach the green in regulation.

ohnonotagain said:
Also Tom Fazio designed that hole so not sure i would not consider it bush league
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I don't care who desgined it. I can still think it's bush league.
 
blugold said:
To me, the hole has to give a reasonable expectation to reach the green in regulation.
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That's a pretty lofty expectation.

So you reasonably expect to get 18 GIR's every time you go out?
 
here'sjohnny said:
That's a pretty lofty expectation.

So you reasonably expect to get 18 GIR's every time you go out?
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Do I expect to? Yes. Does it happen? No.

But the hole has to give the golfer a reasonable chance to do so. To me a long par 4 with hazards in front of the green and danger behind it, don't. Just my preference.
 
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