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Private Clubs vs Public Courses - Is Exclusivity Good?

I wouldn't mind, because it brings in more money to the club, but members should have first rights to play, and should not be limited in their play because of something else going on.
 
Certainly in the UK, there are only a handful of courses that don't allow non members to play if they are prepared to pay. I realised that non members playing at my old club kept my monthly subs down. What did give me the hump were the amount of society days at my club, especially during the summer. Not sure how big golf societies are in the US, in the UK, they are popular. As a member of a private club, I used to enjoy being able to just turn up. There were quite a few instances where I'd show up and there would be a society of 20 or so players meaning members couldn't get out. You could of wait till the last group tee'd off and follow them round, but anyone that has ever followed a golf society round 18 holes knows rounds of 5 to 6 hours aren't uncommon. Again though, golf societies bring in big money to clubs again keeping monthly subs down for the members, so it's difficult to complain about them.
 
Callawaygolfpro said:
Should a private facility completely limit the ability for anyone to play their course?
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Absolutely, it's a private entity and it's entirely in it's rights to limit and discriminate to their hearts content. As long as they are maintaining the course with their money, I don't care if you're required to wear pink underwear and take up short shots for the starters personal collection to be allowed to tee off.

When "private" entities take public money for whatever reason, that's when we the people can raise all kinds of hades about how they do or do not run their business but until then, I'll stick with private companies can and should make their own rules and live by the consequences of these rules.
 
slodsm said:
Absolutely, it's a private entity and it's entirely in it's rights to limit and discriminate to their hearts content. As long as they are maintaining the course with their money, I don't care if you're required to wear pink underwear and take up short shots for the starters personal collection to be allowed to tee off.

When "private" entities take public money for whatever reason, that's when we the people can raise all kinds of hades about how they do or do not run their business but until then, I'll stick with private companies can and should make their own rules and live by the consequences of these rules.
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This exactly!
 
The mentality of "Private Clubs" in some Kansas towns dumbfounds me. Here in Manhattan, KS we have 6 very nice golf courses to choose from. One of those courses is the Manhattan Country Club. The C.C. has a nice dining facility, weight room, and swimming. When I spoke to the GM of the CC last year I told him that I had at least 5 golfers that wanted to join the C.C. but we were not interested in the weight room, swimming pool, or any other amenity; we just wanted to play golf.

While he said he understood where we were coming from he said that he could not create a membership based strictly on playing golf. I reminded him that his main attraction was the golf course and that I would be adding thousands of dollars to his revenue. He said he wasn't interested.

In my opinion, that type of thinking will be the death of C.C.'s all over the country.
 
If it is a private club, then I think they should be able to limit it to members only if they want. I have never played on a private course and doubt I ever will, but it's their club, so it their rules.
 
I am all for private courses and their exclusivity. There are far too many outstanding courses I would rather play then some private courses. But the point is, the members pay for the exclusive environment and tee times.

Now I have played many private courses over the years and the grass is the same on both side of the fence. The greens might roll a little better but all in all besides the service the experience is the same.
 
Our club does allow guest play arranged through the director of golf or the club manager. Members may take outside guests on a limited basis and can arrange for outside guest to play unaccompanied by a member but that is rare. If you are from the UK or any other country and want to play our course call the director of golf and he will get you on the course. (better yet, pm me and we will play together.) On Mondays (when the course is available) we have policemen, firemen, sheriff's department folks, EMTs, etc as guest. Each of those service folks may play once a month with no greens fee and a free cart.

Some mondays and one tuesday we do quiet a few events on the course that bring in a large amount or revenue annually. When I first became a member I hardly noticed these and I play a lot. We do one huge fundraiser at no cost to that charity each year. That charity contributes $90,000+ to hundreds of agencies all over the area. After getting on the golf committee and seeing the calendar process, I understand why these events are almost invisible. We, the golfers, control the calendar.

We still have the highest unemployment in Georgia so times have been expecially tough the last five years. We are pretty conservative financially we refuse to go into debt but we still are working on enhancing the club experience and continuing capital projects on a shoestring budget.

As to the question of golf only membership, there are Golf Clubs in Georgia that do not try to provide the entire Country Club experience, perhaps you can find one of those golf clubs in your area. If you wanted to join our club for golf you would have all the privileges of membership and pay full price.

And...I now have Monday privileges and that means I can take out a foursome with carts any monday at no cost. So, if you want to play here, shoot me a PM and lets work something out. Lots of stuff the next two months of mondays with high school region and state tournaments, the charity mentioned above and a benefit for the local schools system but there are a few openings. Let me know.
 
I belong to a members club, so in theory, I own a tiny share of it. The club does not allow Pay and Play, but will allow non members to organise a tee time through the office. They do not allow this during peak times, and on the whole, the membership is happy to see the additional revenue.
 
I worked at a private golf Course on Long Island for 9 summers primarily as a caddy but also as a bag room manager and pro shop assistant. I have heard talks with members of the board, event planners, starters, and members alike.

When I first started the club was closed to members every Monday for outings - working as a caddy I would get there around 7:30/8 AM on outing days, and not leave till the earliest 6 PM or so - I would help set up and help tear everything down for the outing.

I noticed as the years wore on and the economy started tanking the usual cart riders would start walking (they would charge for carts but walking was free), outings became a stronger focus, and your usual late afternoon high-tipping groups became sparse....

Then towards the end of my career at the course the random Thursday afternoon "mini outing" (10-15 groups) became a weekly tradition so much so that I would get out for an early loop, come in after the round and the caddy master would tell e to grab lunch and come back for the afternoon outing....

SO I guess what I am trying to say is the club tried to keep its members only mentality as much as possible, but at the end of the day, they have to keep the lights on so they need to bring in more outings....

As for working in the pro shop, I heard convos about renovations being put off, members shopping other clubs for better deals, and our greenskeeper was always worried about the course for fear the conditions would turn bad and the members would leave to go elsewhere....granted, the course was nice but to be honest, there are a handful of public courses I would become a member over the one I worked for at the drop of a hat....

As for being a member at your own private course, the benefits are almost always getting out to play, pace of play not taking 5-6 hrs, knowing your cart girl/guy will come out to you once every 3 holes, your clubs being cleaned/stored for you, and a locker with clean clothes and a shower right after the round.

I am not a member of a private club, but am starting to entertain the idea since I am getting married soon and my days of late night boozing have all but come to an end....huh
 
It would be nice if I could walk up to Merion and play during certain days and times. I'm a big fan of the course, appreciate its design and would be the perfect guest player in every way. Yet I understand why I can't; the members pay a good deal of money to keep the place running and enjoy it at their leisure. They don't know me or anyone else who would show up at the door. I know courses like the OP mentioned, Muirfield, require a certified handicap, which has to be below 15 or something, as a screening mechanism I guess. I appreciate that most clubs in Europe allow public play in moderation, but the membership should be allowed to figure out what works best for them.

As a new member at a private club, I joined so I could show up and play when I can and avoid crowds. If I couldn't play when I wanted because of outings and the like, or the course was clogged with crowds, then it wouldn't really serve its purpose for me and I'd go elsewhere or just play public. I wouldn't care if such play reduced my dues; I'd still see it as a waste of money.
 
Thanks for all of the great responses. All valid points. I suppose as a fan of the game I want to be able to play as many different courses that I can when I can. One of my favorite things to do is play a new course when I go somewhere. I was surprised about the ability to be able to play nearly any course in the UK. I thought it was a great thing. As one post mentioned, times were limited on most courses and you are going to pay a higher green fee but simply having the chance to play was wonderful in my eyes. I can definitely appreciate the desire to get to a course and walk on any time I could without distractions. I worked for a company that had a corporate membership at one of the private clubs in KC and I took more advantage of the range and practice facility than I did the course but it was great to be able to walk a quick nine after work if I wanted to.

I don't expect a lot of private facilities to go to start allowing limited public play but it's great to hear that there are a few out there that do. Lefty78, sounds like you belong to a great course. Allowing the first responders to play for free on Monday is a great public service! Definitely a tip of the cap to your facility!
 
Callawaygolfpro said:
There appears to be a theme here, if I can be so bold to say it. Private club membership is okay provided that they don't need help with revenue. If they need help with revenue they should not be private. Again, in my experience, there are only a handful of courses in the US that is currently being run in the black across the board (Private or Public).

In the KC market I would say that we are over-saturated with courses when you take in to account the number of people actually playing the game on a regular basis. I suppose that's another topic for another thread.
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well, if they're private and they cant support their costs, they're gonna fold or be forced to open to a broader clientele, it's a simple as that.

I've belonged to a private course that was struggling and was forced to go semi-private. Course conditions were bad, and the place got a reputation for it, and the general public stopped coming because of it. Metro Nashville finally bought the place. I belong to a private club now. I like that it's closed to people who dont have "skin in the game" so-to-speak.....the members take good care of the place. It's as simple as fixing your pitchmarks and raking traps, all the way up to the charity events we conduct. It's also been my experience that the people get to know one another more readily. My observation....YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)
 
Callawaygolfpro said:
There appears to be a theme here, if I can be so bold to say it. Private club membership is okay provided that they don't need help with revenue. If they need help with revenue they should not be private. Again, in my experience, there are only a handful of courses in the US that is currently being run in the black across the board (Private or Public).

In the KC market I would say that we are over-saturated with courses when you take in to account the number of people actually playing the game on a regular basis. I suppose that's another topic for another thread.
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I disagree I think there is a lot more than a handful running in the black, but also some(mostly equity clubs) don't want to run in the black sure they want to have a reserve or capital fund, but the goal is not to make a profit it's to make a club/lifestyle/environment that the current membership enjoys and that other people want to join. But usually if a club is losing money public or private there is a simple answer...poor management, granted you cannot force people to come play a golf course, but the last thing you want to do is give them a reason not too....
 
Virginia has the Virginia State Golfers Assosiation. Each year you can buy q VIP card and you get free green fees and just pay for cart. They have public and a few private courses. There are only certain times you can play to get the discount, and with the few private courses its even less of a window to play. If I was a private member I wouldn't mind my club doing this as it goes for scholarships in the end, and with the very limited window for non members to play, it really wouldn't get in the way.

Yea, I tapped that.
 
Callawaygolfpro said:
Thanks for all of the great responses. All valid points. I suppose as a fan of the game I want to be able to play as many different courses that I can when I can. One of my favorite things to do is play a new course when I go somewhere. I was surprised about the ability to be able to play nearly any course in the UK. I thought it was a great thing. As one post mentioned, times were limited on most courses and you are going to pay a higher green fee but simply having the chance to play was wonderful in my eyes. I can definitely appreciate the desire to get to a course and walk on any time I could without distractions. I worked for a company that had a corporate membership at one of the private clubs in KC and I took more advantage of the range and practice facility than I did the course but it was great to be able to walk a quick nine after work if I wanted to.
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I do think it'd be neat if some very exclusive private clubs would setup a VERY limited public play. For example, do something like Bethpage Black. Setup a lottery system to allow a few groups per week. If it's just a few groups mixed in with the regular members, the members aren't likely to even notice.
 
Part of the challenge is your premise - "If we're interested in growing the game..." Not every private club has that as a concern (at least beyond there being enough members to keep the club operating with decent dues levels).

I am a member of a private club for the first time in my life. I joined for a simple reason - I want to play and practice when I want to. The club is closed to members on Tuesdays. We have very few private outings. Local guests can play no more than four times a year. We have lots of social and golf opportunities for members to be together. We have 15 minute tee times and other than busy weekend days you can play in 3 hours. On a busy day it might take 3.5 or, very rarely, 4 hours.

It is what it is. There are other private courses that have different policies. If that's what I wanted I would join there. The membership ultimately makes the decisions, even if it's not "owned" by the members. Customers drive service. If a private club doesn't want public play, don't allow it. If they do, then do so.
 
Living in the land of plenty as far as golf courses are concerned, I do believe that there is a place for exclusivity up to a point.

If any private club has spare capacity and are able to allow non members a tee time then why not. The club can still be exclusive and allow SOME tee times.

Take Royal Birkdale, this is ranked in the top 5 in the UK if not Europe and yet if you are prepared to part with £180 ($240) you can get a time so long as your handicap is low enough. By allowing non members, they are keeping the annual membership costs down. Everyone is a winner.

Why have empty fairways when they can generate a bit of income.
 
Richard Rodgers said:
Living in the land of plenty as far as golf courses are concerned, I do believe that there is a place for exclusivity up to a point.

If any private club has spare capacity and are able to allow non members a tee time then why not. The club can still be exclusive and allow SOME tee times.

Take Royal Birkdale, this is ranked in the top 5 in the UK if not Europe and yet if you are prepared to part with £180 ($240) you can get a time so long as your handicap is low enough. By allowing non members, they are keeping the annual membership costs down. Everyone is a winner.

Why have empty fairways when they can generate a bit of income.
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Exactly what I was coming in to say. Why not make a bit more money when you have a couple open tee times each week? As long as you're not crowding the place and affecting pace of play, charge a bunch of money and let a non-member play
 
Richard Rodgers said:
Living in the land of plenty as far as golf courses are concerned, I do believe that there is a place for exclusivity up to a point.

If any private club has spare capacity and are able to allow non members a tee time then why not. The club can still be exclusive and allow SOME tee times.

Take Royal Birkdale, this is ranked in the top 5 in the UK if not Europe and yet if you are prepared to part with £180 ($240) you can get a time so long as your handicap is low enough. By allowing non members, they are keeping the annual membership costs down. Everyone is a winner.

Why have empty fairways when they can generate a bit of income.
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My sentiments exactly. There's a time and place for exclusivity but I think it's great to open up to non-members provided the guest is jumping through a few hoops and is willing to pay for it. I truly believe the people that will pay to do it will take care of the facility as if it were their own, but maybe I'm relying on what I would do versus what someone else would.
 
Not trying to sound like an elitist a-hole but I am a member at a pretty nice private club. I work an 7 days on - 7 days off schedule so effectively I only have 2 weeks a month that I can get on my course and play. We have had major growth the last couple months and getting on during prime hours and days is becoming increasingly difficult. Last thursday morning I went to the club to get 18 in and they were hosting a corporate tourney for a big insurance firm where there were about 300 people playing. (the majority being non members). 18 of the 27 holes were out of play due to the tourney. I ended up playing 9 the morning then coming back late afternoon to play 18 more. There were so many unfilled divots it was really starting to make me mad. I pay the private club for the great course conditions and for the respect from all the golfers to do there best to keep our course in great shape. To say the least I was not happy about having the thursday tourney and then the lack of respect from the non members.
 
Doesn't sound elitist to me. Sounds like a guy that paid for something with an expectation that wasn't met. I'd be ticked off too.
 
Hawk said:
Doesn't sound elitist to me. Sounds like a guy that paid for something with an expectation that wasn't met. I'd be ticked off too.
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Agree with Hawk. And there are options - voice your concerns, get other members to voice their concerns, agree to raising dues in exchange for not having these types of outings, rally the members to look for new management, and/or look at other club options.

What you are looking for, Cferguson, is exactly what I looked for in a club. And I chose to join my particular club out of three nice clubs in the area based on the fact that they have lower membership, far fewer outside events, and an attitude that members deserve to play when they want to play. We don't have other amenities (nice clubhouse, restaurant, swimming pool) at this point because the goal has been to be a golf-first membership with reasonable dues without having to rely on outside events/play to generate more revenue.

To the overall point again, there are tons of options out there. People can find what they want. There are certainly arguments for having open tee times for the public. There are just as good arguments to not. It's an individual club decision based on what their goals are and what the financial environment will allow.
 
TheWoo said:
Agree with Hawk. And there are options - voice your concerns, get other members to voice their concerns, agree to raising dues in exchange for not having these types of outings, rally the members to look for new management, and/or look at other club options.

What you are looking for, Cferguson, is exactly what I looked for in a club. And I chose to join my particular club out of three nice clubs in the area based on the fact that they have lower membership, far fewer outside events, and an attitude that members deserve to play when they want to play. We don't have other amenities (nice clubhouse, restaurant, swimming pool) at this point because the goal has been to be a golf-first membership with reasonable dues without having to rely on outside events/play to generate more revenue.

To the overall point again, there are tons of options out there. People can find what they want. There are certainly arguments for having open tee times for the public. There are just as good arguments to not. It's an individual club decision based on what their goals are and what the financial environment will allow.
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Doesn't sound elitist to me either. Most of the private clubs that I have had any dealing with in KC only allow tournaments on Monday's. The only exception to that rule was a Web.com event and Tom Watson hosting his own charity event that was limited field. There are definitely options out there of other facilities if your expectations are being met or the club isn't holding up their end of the deal.
 
I think if I join anything again, it'll be something public like TPC Deere Run or Fyre Lake (assuming it's a good facility - just opened). Both are high end places with packages that are similar in cost to my club, minus the expectations I had. Not to mention no monthly minimums.
 
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