Combo sets...why?

[mastapp]

I agree but I'm going to go out on on a ledge and guess most people playing combo sets didn't go through a proper fitting to compare and make a decision.

What defines a "proper fitting"? I'd submit that the great majority of players are not huge golf nerds like we on this forum are, and therefore aren't going to great efforts to get a 14 club fitting and have a ball matched to their swing just to go out and play to a double digit handicap like many of us on here do.

That sounds snarkier than it is intended, but the overriding idea is that aesthetics and brand loyalty play into golf equipment purchases much more than we are willing to admit.

 

[mikedean441]

What defines a "proper fitting"? I'd submit that the great majority of players are not huge golf nerds like we on this forum are, and therefore aren't going to great efforts to get a 14 club fitting and have a ball matched to their swing just to go out and play to a double digit handicap like many of us on here do.

That sounds snarkier than it is intended, but the overriding idea is that aesthetics and brand loyalty play into golf equipment purchases much more than we are willing to admit.

I'll agree they arent nerds, but the people outside of the educated groups like us arent playing combo sets

 

[Canadan]

What defines a "proper fitting"? I'd submit that the great majority of players are not huge golf nerds like we on this forum are, and therefore aren't going to great efforts to get a 14 club fitting and have a ball matched to their swing just to go out and play to a double digit handicap like many of us on here do.

That sounds snarkier than it is intended, but the overriding idea is that aesthetics and brand loyalty play into golf equipment purchases much more than we are willing to admit.

to a point, I'd agree, but I don't think that relates to fittings.

Demo days don't exactly come at a premium. It's not like we don't go and test drive cars before buying them -- You'd think a fitting would be the logical thing to do.

 

[mastapp]

I'll agree they arent nerds, but the people outside of the educated groups like us arent playing combo sets

I guess even more simply put, nobody just buys equipment for absolutely no reason. Maybe some play muscle backs in the lower irons for a specific purpose, some do it because their favorite golfer does it, some play them because they like the way the clubs look, some do it because it is the hottest new set put out by their favorite brand, some do it because their courses have very thin fairway lies, some are aspirational and believe their game will improve to the point where blades will be the better option.

I do like the question, but it's probably not going to generate answers that satisfy you, as I think based on the wording of the initial question, you have a bias toward NOT playing combo sets.

 

[mastapp]

to a point, I'd agree, but I don't think that relates to fittings.

Demo days don't exactly come at a premium. It's not like we don't go and test drive cars before buying them -- You'd think a fitting would be the logical thing to do.

I don't think doing research on a $30k purchase and doing research on a <$1000 purchase would be comparable. But I do understand your sentiment from the perspective of being as passionate about golf as we on here tend to be. We are a minority of the minority in the total golf world, however.

 

[ryebread]

I'm going to ask a dumb question. What consists of a combo set?

Is a combo set something like the 588 Altitude/MT/CB line? That one seemed designed to be fully integrated and modular. That seems to be the best design I have seen and speaks to the market's perceived need of these sets. I honestly felt that after the 5/6 Altitude, the best ones were actually the 7-DW. I don't know why I'd go to a MT.

Does this mean playing an integrated set that has irons and hybrids? I'd think the hybrid revolution has shown the benefit of that approach. Go with irons until you can't hit them any more and then get something with more ability to get the ball airborne.

We could take this with respect to brand. If someone isn't playing all clubs out of one OEM's line with matching shafts and heads, it is technically a combo set. The clubs are going to perform differently. By that definition though, probably 90% of the people here are playing a combo set.

We could take this to the extreme and say that any set that isn't all irons and wedges of the same iron make up is a combo set. Any time one goes to a specialty club such as a driver, fairway wood, hybrid or custom wedge immediately puts someone in the "combo" set category. That would mean that 99.99% of golfers play a combo set.

I think the question is really intended at why people think they need thinner soled "scoring" irons so much that they go to an entirely different class of iron. I'm honestly not so sure. Within a line, the sole widths, bounce and grinds are all manipulated to make them hit differently based on the type of shot that will most likely be played. The lofts, shaft lengths, lies, launch properties are also all set to provide consistent gaps and stepped performance. Is it really worth going to all the trouble to do it right just to switch from one head type to another? I'm not sure that it is, and I think that was the original intent of the discussion.

 

[golfinFF]

It is usually more expensive to do yo0ur own combo set, as a general rule you can get a better deal on a full set, than by ordering irons individually

I disagree with it being more expensive to build a combo set. I know I can order a set of 714cb's in 6-p and 714 ap2's in 4,5 for less than or the same as a full set of AP2's because the CB is cheaper per iron.

 

[Nate]

I've never played a combo set. This year I'm considering doing it with the 588's (if offered) but that will be determined after a fitting/demo day use. It's not ego. It's not cause I'm a low handicapper. It's because I might want to try something new which is exciting to us golfers. I like to flight my scoring irons low. I like to work the ball from time to time with them. If the MB's allow me to do that then I will consider.

A drop off in yardage is also something to watch out for between 2 sets? If so, then that's a big no-no. But if not and the MB's feel good then why not? Confidence is a big thing in golf. If by getting the MB's for my scoring irons raises my confidence going into greens then why not? If the fitter tells me that my numbers are pretty close between the MB's and the CB's for my PW, 9, 8 and 7 and I'm really liking how the MB's feel, then why not? It does not harm. It raises my confidence and that equals better golf.

But I agree with others, try them out first to make sure that they all agree with what you are wanting to accomplish and then mix away!

 

[sposey013168]

I was talking in general terms, most golfers go to a store like Dicks, Acadamy etc and can pick up a complete set for a better deal than ordering individual irons.

I myself am looking at ordering individual irons 4 through 6 in i20 to match with my s55. I love the precision of the 7 through W in s55 but would like the extra help in 4 through 6. If I am hitting 4 through 6 most of the time I am just going for center of green, 7 iron down I am trying to go at the stick as a general rule.

I disagree with it being more expensive to build a combo set. I know I can order a set of 714cb's in 6-p and 714 ap2's in 4,5 for less than or the same as a full set of AP2's because the CB is cheaper per iron.

 

[Agent Jay]

I've pondered this in the past to a degree. Getting my longer irons in a more forgiving set and then playing the 7-wedges in more of a blade version. I've never done this, I guess because of the cash involved and trying to get the lofts between sets to work out. It's more of a homework deal, it wouldn't take much to make sure the lofts decrease correctly. Bottom line for me is, is it worth it? I guess for me the answer is no, as my game is good enough where my misses on the face usually aren't that bad, plus the cash factor. With that said, it would be a great benefit to most golfers. Could I see myself doing this in the future, yes I think I could. Hitting my XHP's right now, I love them, but I do miss the feel of my MP-33's there is NO doubt about that.

 

[bellairemi]

I cannot answer for all fitters but combo sets do present some issues if you are providing a comprehensive fitting. I should note there are differences between a set conceived as a combo set where there is prescribed break versus one that the fitter and player construct. In the former, the irons usually are built in such a way as to flow into each other (more like a regular iron set). This may be done by noticeably changing the head from a GI head to more of a blade (say mixing the TM TP MCs and MBs) or by simply changing the weight in each iron while keeping the same head shape (Apex Pro). In the latter you would actually mix and match from separate lines (say the Ping i20s and S55s).

The problem is that fitting carts do not come with enough of the different heads to really get a reliable read on whether or not the break makes sense for a player. Yes for someone with standard specs you can possibly pull from a floor set but other players do not have that option. Plus you are then limited to whatever shaft is in the floor set.

In my experience, combo sets do fit some golfers but it is a pretty small percentage of the playing population. One limiting factor is that the "forgiving" side of the combo is often not so forgiving (GI at best). I have watched golfers try to talk themselves into these sets by saying they expect to miss a few with their 4-6 irons - they end up accepting less than ideal results with those clubs because they love the concept and look of the combo. Unfortunately, if they are on the cusp of the forgiving end being a little too punitive on misses, they face the same issue on the shorter more "player" clubs.

The other issue comes with turf interaction, which the lack of fitting heads really does not help address. As you get into the shorter irons, turf interaction for most players becomes more influential on the shot results given that the swings are steeper. The SGI and most GI soles are pretty good at allowing golfers to get away with slightly fat or thin swings. But some of the more blade like parts of combo sets require precise ball/earth contact; it is not unusual to see even a slightly fat shot lose a ton of distance because the clubs sticks in the ground somewhat.

So I got a question on the combos and fittings.

When it comes to fittings are combo sets something that most fitters just don't think about? Is it because its easier got them to go to the back and grab a full set than ordering what fits the players game the best?

I know many manufacturers have many options when it comes to ordering irons.

 

[Playdough]

So I got a question on the combos and fittings.

When it comes to fittings are combo sets something that most fitters just don't think about? Is it because its easier got them to go to the back and grab a full set than ordering what fits the players game the best?

I know many manufacturers have many options when it comes to ordering irons.

I think it comes to that most fitters don't think about it. Or they don't want to confuse the customer with introducing an idea they may not have heard of. And thats where education of the consumer comes in. I'm sure that if I didn't go in to my fitting with the knowledge level that I went into it with, that I wouldnt have a combo set. I can't confirm this, because I'm not a fitter and have only been through one fitting but this would be my guess.

 

[Jman]

Or could it be that they just don't see any benefit to it for most amateurs? I personally think thats probably the largest factor in it.

 

[captaincaution]

I think the amount of time spent fitting is a big factor. If you're going to game an effective combo set, figuring out the transition point takes a lot more time and effort than fitting to an iron set using one club.

 

[Playdough]

I think the amount of time spent fitting is a big factor. If you're going to game an effective combo set, figuring out the transition point takes a lot more time and effort than fitting to an iron set using one club.

And thats where spending time hitting lots of clubs at demo days comes into play for the consumer to educate themself. I was very interested in the Nike Pro Combo set at the start of the '13 season. Spent some quality time with them at a demo day and at the end of the day, they just wasn't what I wanted. Its about the amount of time that someone wants to spend on researching their future set. And I agree, it takes a lot more to fit someone into a combo set than straight set.

 

[BigTex]

From trying to piece together a bag for my daughter and myself, the combo sets can help with the transition from one type of club to another. This would be where you go from irons to hybrids, or from irons to wedges. My daughter is a good young player, but because of her clubhead speed she would not consistently get the trajectory she needed with a 7 iron. But, trajectory and dispersion wise the best club in her bag is her 6 hybrid. The problem was there was a constant 15+ yard gap between the 7 and 6 hybrid, which was really greater since her miss with the iron made that gap really about 20 yards. Since TaylorMade does not make a 7 hybrid, and she is playing one of their most forgiving irons, we look at getting a Rocketbladez Max iron to replace the Rocketbladez 7 iron. In the end she decided to live with it, and has narrowed the gap getting stronger and improving her ball striking. But when we tested it on the simulator the Max did narrow that gap somewhat.

I think the same happens at the other end of the bag for those using SGI clubs. The transition from the set wedges to the sand and lob wedges can create a yardage and dispersion gap wider than just looking at the lofts would indicate. Effectively you are going from an SGI club that can mitigate some misses to a muscle back players type iron there. You may be able to smooth out that gap with a less GI club, and even add so versatility that you cannot get in the set gap and/or pitching wedges.

 

[Canadan]

I don't think doing research on a $30k purchase and doing research on a <$1000 purchase would be comparable. But I do understand your sentiment from the perspective of being as passionate about golf as we on here tend to be. We are a minority of the minority in the total golf world, however.

Not everyone is paying 30k for their car, for what it's worth.. To some, spending 1k on irons is as tough as spending money on a new car.

My point was more than people either buy blindly or spend time researching whether it's a phone, a computer, a car, or golf clubs.. I just see it as the logical thing to do.

 

[Canadan]

I think it comes to that most fitters don't think about it. Or they don't want to confuse the customer with introducing an idea they may not have heard of. And thats where education of the consumer comes in. I'm sure that if I didn't go in to my fitting with the knowledge level that I went into it with, that I wouldnt have a combo set. I can't confirm this, because I'm not a fitter and have only been through one fitting but this would be my guess.

Is it that? Is it that many fitters just think extremely vanilla about club fitting? I've heard countless fitters tell people to drop a 4/5 iron for a hybrid but never critique the bladed wedges someone's gaming. I'm just not sure I understand why fitters would encourage a split between irons and hybrids, yet not considering a split in the middle of an iron set to allow for greater forgiveness as it builds through.

Companies like Cobra get this logic by offering the progressive ACP set.

...I'll even break it down further... If the logic is that if someone should be gaming a more forgiving iron in the 4/5 that they should let that bleed through the set, should anyone gaming a hybrid lean towards gaming a set like the altitudes? I just don't understand where this line is drawn and why gaming a combo set wouldn't be beneficial for many.

 

[Nate]

And thats where spending time hitting lots of clubs at demo days comes into play for the consumer to educate themself. I was very interested in the Nike Pro Combo set at the start of the '13 season. Spent some quality time with them at a demo day and at the end of the day, they just wasn't what I wanted. Its about the amount of time that someone wants to spend on researching their future set. And I agree, it takes a lot more to fit someone into a combo set than straight set.

This is key for anyone and everyone to do when looking for a new set. Empower yourself with knowledge!

 

[Playdough]

Is it that? Is it that many fitters just think extremely vanilla about club fitting? I've heard countless fitters tell people to drop a 4/5 iron for a hybrid but never critique the bladed wedges someone's gaming. I'm just not sure I understand why fitters would encourage a split between irons and hybrids, yet not considering a split in the middle of an iron set to allow for greater forgiveness as it builds through.

Companies like Cobra get this logic by offering the progressive ACP set.

...I'll even break it down further... If the logic is that if someone should be gaming a more forgiving iron in the 4/5 that they should let that bleed through the set, should anyone gaming a hybrid lean towards gaming a set like the altitudes? I just don't understand where this line is drawn and why gaming a combo set wouldn't be beneficial for many.

I think there is a lot of vanilla out there in fitting and not taking advantage of all the newest tech. If someone goes in for a fitting why not having them hit a GI 3-iron and compare it to their hybrid. See if that newer tech iron gives the same or maybe even better results. The player may actually see an increase in distance and a tighter pattern with the iron over the hybrid. But the conventional thinking now is that the hybrid is just the automatic answer. When the iron tech and forgivness has increased 3 or 4 fold over what it was even 5-6 years ago.

I think there is a lot of truth to the idea between the irons and wedges. A lot people are saying play the most forgiving iron you can and that combo sets aren't the answer. But I see a lot of people playing blade style wedges. Why if your looking for the most forgiving clubs in your irons arent you looking for that in your wedges as well? And if you are getting fit, is that something that you are looking at? Going with a CB wedge instead of a blade wedge.

I just feel that there is a lot that can be explored in a fitting that just isnt done. And those things could lead to people playing combo sets, or cavity back wedges vs. blade style or long irons instead of hybrids.

 

[Hawk]

Aftermarket wedges are different though. They are shorter, higher lofted, and in many cases used as specialty clubs for a variety of shots, many with shorter swings. In my case, I don't even take full swings with them. Occasionally I will want to full swing with the GW slot, which is why I put a set wedge in the bag there. The length of many wedge shots alone gives them less time to move laterally on mishits, as does the higher backspin.

That said, my experience with the combo sets was just me and I think the situation is different at varying skill levels. I tried a couple very different setups and didn't see a ton of benefit from either one. I don't doubt that there are plenty of folks that could use a little assistance getting ball height in their longer irons. A good example that you see on Tour right now is the big GI irons like the 588 MT used as long iron/hybrid replacements.

 

[golfinFF]

I cannot answer for all fitters but combo sets do present some issues if you are providing a comprehensive fitting. I should note there are differences between a set conceived as a combo set where there is prescribed break versus one that the fitter and player construct. In the former, the irons usually are built in such a way as to flow into each other (more like a regular iron set). This may be done by noticeably changing the head from a GI head to more of a blade (say mixing the TM TP MCs and MBs) or by simply changing the weight in each iron while keeping the same head shape (Apex Pro). In the latter you would actually mix and match from separate lines (say the Ping i20s and S55s).

The problem is that fitting carts do not come with enough of the different heads to really get a reliable read on whether or not the break makes sense for a player. Yes for someone with standard specs you can possibly pull from a floor set but other players do not have that option. Plus you are then limited to whatever shaft is in the floor set.

In my experience, combo sets do fit some golfers but it is a pretty small percentage of the playing population. One limiting factor is that the "forgiving" side of the combo is often not so forgiving (GI at best). I have watched golfers try to talk themselves into these sets by saying they expect to miss a few with their 4-6 irons - they end up accepting less than ideal results with those clubs because they love the concept and look of the combo. Unfortunately, if they are on the cusp of the forgiving end being a little too punitive on misses, they face the same issue on the shorter more "player" clubs.

The other issue comes with turf interaction, which the lack of fitting heads really does not help address. As you get into the shorter irons, turf interaction for most players becomes more influential on the shot results given that the swings are steeper. The SGI and most GI soles are pretty good at allowing golfers to get away with slightly fat or thin swings. But some of the more blade like parts of combo sets require precise ball/earth contact; it is not unusual to see even a slightly fat shot lose a ton of distance because the clubs sticks in the ground somewhat.

Agreed that fitting carts don't have enough heads, with only a 6 or 7 iron to do the fitting with its hard to know how well you'll hit the 4i. I'd love to be able to hit a 4i with the proper specs for me in any given set as that's my struggle club. I realize this would increase cost to the fitter because of double the heads and shafts they would need.

I think it comes to that most fitters don't think about it. Or they don't want to confuse the customer with introducing an idea they may not have heard of. And thats education of the consumer comes in. I'm sure that if I didn't go in to my fitting with the knowledge level that I went into it with, that I wouldnt have a combo set. I can't confirm this, because I'm not a fitter and have only been through one fitting but this would be my guess.

I agree that considering a combo set unless its hybrids to irons isn't a common thought.

Or could it be that they just don't see any benefit to it for most amateurs? I personally think thats probably the largest factor in it.

This maybe but a combo set is something my fitter brought upto me during my last fitting and will be a topic of discussion after my swing changes and my refit before ordering.

It was highly based on the way I play the game, due to the length of courses I play and my current yardages I'm not left with many 4i into greens unless its a long par 3 or occasional 4 or short par 5. My 4i is mainly used off the tee to lay up or on long par 3's.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Canadan]

Aftermarket wedges are different though. They are shorter, higher lofted, and in many cases used as specialty clubs for a variety of shots, many with shorter swings. In my case, I don't even take full swings with them. Occasionally I will want to full swing with the GW slot, which is why I put a set wedge in the bag there. The length of many wedge shots alone gives them less time to move laterally on mishits, as does the higher backspin.

That said, my experience with the combo sets was just me and I think the situation is different at varying skill levels. I tried a couple very different setups and didn't see a ton of benefit from either one. I don't doubt that there are plenty of folks that could use a little assistance getting ball height in their longer irons. A good example that you see on Tour right now is the big GI irons like the 588 MT used as long iron/hybrid replacements.

You make a very nice example of including the GW or AW in your set my friend. I can't tell you how many times I hear from local playing partners with high handicaps that "I can't handle a 58.. has to be a 60" or "I need three wedges in my bag, all the same brand and design, or I just can't function"

I've never really understood why that design is so notably cut off at 50* the way it is for some people. Having SpeedBlade AW, CMB GW, etc... I just don't get it.

 

[Hawk]

It's the old PW loft basically, so I think it's probably as much tradition or whatever you want to call it as it is anything. It's just where iron sets have always ended give or take a degree. In reality, that ~50° wedge is still one I don't take many full swings with even though I have it for that. I'd just assume take something off a different club since I'll be able to control it better.

 

[rallo]

Not everyone is paying 30k for their car, for what it's worth.. To some, spending 1k on irons is as tough as spending money on a new car.

My point was more than people either buy blindly or spend time researching whether it's a phone, a computer, a car, or golf clubs.. I just see it as the logical thing to do.

This^

I think your car analogy from a few posts ago is a nearly perfect statement. Whether I'm buying a set, or a single club. Whether it be new or used, I'm sure as hell going to read a million reviews then take it for a 'test drive' before spending my hard earned cash. I obsess about purchases because, in this oversaturated market, you get hammered when trying to resell. Buddy of mine bought a set of mp 59s a year or so back, and didn't like them. Tried to trade them in at the local golf shop and they would only give him $300 trade in value... for a set that was $900 a few months prior...

point is, there is nothing wrong with exstensively testing and researching each purchase, because once you 'drive it off the lot' you better be happy, cuz you won't see that money again