Ben Hogan Golf - Can they survive?

[Sox_Fan]

I, for one, really hope they are able to survive long term. I feel like they definitely need to achieve some strong tour presence to do this though. Great marketing and strong buzz among amateurs will buy them a few years but the tour presence will be needed to sustain that momentum.

Like Nate and many other THPers, I grew up with the brand and it does, and always will, hold a special place in my heart. I will certainly be interested to see what comes from the Ben Hogan experience and the reviews from the 6 THPers that follow the event. I would love nothing more than to put Hogan irons back in my bag but just need to see and hear more and to be able to demo them to determine whether it would be advantageous for me to do so.

 

[JB]

They have one huge thing going for them right now with these releases of the name and product. Me. Me being the one that played Hogans back in high school and college. Me. The guy who had to get a part time job over the summer months to purchase those Apex's for the fall season. Me. Who remembers those clubs like the back side of my hand even today. Me. Who now is 45, and remembers those high school days with my Hogans and who now has their own money to spend on those clubs again.

Everyone use to play Hogans at some point back in HS/College. Now those "me's" have careers and the money to spend. If they can somehow break into this segment again it would be a good start IMHO. Take me back Hogan..........take me back.

Sure do. And this still goes back to the idea that I think many are criticizing the brand based on Eidolon and then the birth of SCOR. They dont realize that the team in place here is not Terry running around selling wedges, but a team that has decades of experience at some of the largest golf companies out there. Its like saying Callaway is only successful or not successful because of Chip Brewer. Chip is fantastic (arguably the best in the golf business) and the irony in this parallel is that he too was at Adams during the surge. But everybody that knows anything about business knows it is more than one person at any company looking at growth and while Terry may be CEO (like Chip), he has a Director of Marketing, a Director of Golf, R&D people, etc.

In their first year they added retail presence. They added club fitting presence. They added green grass presence. They added more R&D to their team. They just added a digital marketing manager who is really good. I have no idea long term success and in golf, the window to get there is even smaller, but its easy to look at see the critical of a strategy based on the previous brand, which FWIW, I agree with (on those lines)

And I will say this without any hesitation. Since Miura and Edel were brought up. They will outsell both of them in the US this year in my opinion and I dont think it will be close. Outside of die hards, nobody knows who Edel is. Nothing wrong with that mind you, as that is his niche right now, but every golfer knows Hogan enough to at least pick it up and look at it.

 

[Desmond]

I thought the thread title was "Ben Hogan Golf -- Can They Survive?"

Not Can They Outsell... I don't think Edel or Miura is trying to outsell -- they have a niche product, and they have survived.

As to Chip, met him when he was at Adams going into small retail stores and selling their new product introductions. Heck, I hung out at Hank Haney's Ranch when Barney Adams was almost omnipresent out there -- great guys for their product. What y'all are not reading and what I have experienced over the years, and what we apparently agree on, if you look for similarities/agreement, is that an entrepreneur must have a strong management team that will butt heads with the entrepreneur.

I'll go back to golf to my attorney place now -- I need money to play at Cowboys...

 

[Nate]

I thought the thread title was "Ben Hogan Golf -- Can They Survive?"

Not Can They Outsell... I don't think Edel or Miura is trying to outsell -- they have a niche product, and they have survived.

As to Chip, met him when he was at Adams going into small retail stores and selling their new product introductions. Heck, I hung out at Hank Haney's Ranch when Barney Adams was almost omnipresent out there -- great guys for their product. What y'all are not reading and what I have experienced over the years, and what we apparently agree on, if you look for similarities/agreement, is that an entrepreneur must have a strong management team that will butt heads with the entrepreneur.

I'll go back to golf to my attorney place now -- I need money to play at Cowboys...

You're a 2 time Super Bowl champ, Heisman trophy winner and NFL hall of famer and the Cowboys golf club still charges you to play there?

I think everyone gets what your saying, cause you've said it in about 3 different ways to make your point. Of course it's going to take a management team that rocks. Of course it's going to take a product that rocks. Of course it's going to take some marketing to certain segments of the population that rocks. It all has to come together if and when their plan is implemented. I'm just simply pointing out that I believe IMHO that there is a certain part of the market they can capture right now. Now, let's see if they agree.

 

[-CRW-]

I wasn't aware of this prior to yesterday, but while talking with some guys in a local golf group I found out that Hogan is putting local PGA pros on "staff" and providing them with equipment. I think that helps at least to some degree in getting the word out on a product.

Someone for Hogan will also be present with equipment for the demo day at my club tomorrow (assuming it dries up here some). I think continuing to be present at demo days is going to be good for them too.

I also have read that their hitting booths were packed last year and this year at the PGA Merchandise Show. That makes me think that there is a lot of interest in the product. Whether that interest materializes into sales is another story.

 

[Desmond]

You're a 2 time Super Bowl champ, Heisman trophy winner and NFL hall of famer and the Cowboys golf club still charges you to play there?

I think everyone gets what your saying, cause you've said it in about 3 different ways to make your point. Of course it's going to take a management team that rocks. Of course it's going to take a product that rocks. Of course it's going to take some marketing to certain segments of the population that rocks. It all has to come together if and when their plan is implemented. I'm just simply pointing out that I believe IMHO that there is a certain part of the market they can capture right now. Now, let's see if they agree.

Sarcasm is not an endearing trait but expected. I was young once... I got over it.

I said the similar things in other ways because all I was getting in response was a change of subject and a lot of defensiveness. That doesn't win points. I look for agreement.

 

[Jman]

Sarcasm is not an endearing trait but expected. I was young once... I got over it.

OK, easy there dude. Nate wasn't being sarcastic, he was being lighthearted and funny, thats how we are over here as compared to other places where, yes, sarcasm is the first inclination of people in their replies.

As to the topic, I think they can. I really do.

 

[Trout Bum]

Nate seriously brought me back to how I used to feel about Hogan, man the nostalgia was awesome.

 

[McLovin]

Sarcasm is not an endearing trait but expected. I was young once... I got over it.

I said the similar things in other ways because all I was getting in response was a change of subject and a lot of defensiveness. That doesn't win points. I look for agreement.

fwiw I'm a numbers guy as well and I share all of your concerns. i see many more businesses open and close than open and succeed. I appreciate the tradition behind the name, the sentiments that people have from past experience. but I don't know that this is enough to keep them in the black, although to be fair i don't meant to suggest that they have put all their eggs in this basket.

I love the way the irons look, and I love their involvement here on thp. I wish them all the best and will be watching on the sidelines cheering for them.


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[JB]

fwiw I'm a numbers guy as well and I share all of your concerns. i see many more businesses open and close than open and succeed. I appreciate the tradition behind the name, the sentiments that people have from past experience. but I don't know that this is enough to keep them in the black, although to be fair i don't meant to suggest that they have put all their eggs in this basket.

I love the way the irons look, and I love their involvement here on thp. I wish them all the best and will be watching on the sidelines cheering for them.


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See I agree with all of this. The problem is, that is not what was really said. Instead it was change strategy and get into things that they are already doing. Add management that is different in theory, which they have already done, etc.

I think the chances are still very up in the air, and love the conversation, but the issues being pointed out as technical, were about previous TK brands, not Hogan and the assumption being that they carry over, is just that, an assumption rather than what it was being portrayed as.

 

[Nate]

Sarcasm is not an endearing trait but expected. I was young once... I got over it.

I said the similar things in other ways because all I was getting in response was a change of subject and a lot of defensiveness. That doesn't win points. I look for agreement.

I guess you forgot about my comment in another thread about you resembling a famous Dallas Cowboy that we both laughed about after. It would have made more sense to you if you hadn't.

Sorry you feel like people aren't agreeing with you here. That is the beauty of a light hearted discussion on a topic. You being an attorney I'm sure can appreciate a topic being viewed from all sides without getting upset or saying things that you wish you hadn't said.

Enjoy your Cowboys golf and hope to see you out one day at one of our DFW local outings. Might help get a better perspective on some people here.

 

[-CRW-]

As I said, wish them well. My experience is that details escape the entrepreneur and a great management team must push against the founder to help longevity. Of course, you must have sizzle with the steak - PXG has Parsons and former Ping engineers, Miura has mystical Japanese forging, Edel has custom everything and a miraculous sole grind; Hogan has a legendary name that they took out of Callaway's mothballs, and look at Nicklaus -- he has/had a hard time selling clubs. I think Hogan needs more sizzle with the steak - more than a V sole. Hope they find it or hard sell the steak they have -- Hogan -- with more story. People love a story - make it exciting and interesting. Cause some marketing controversy to get your name out there.

Maybe this is the fault of the Ben Hogan company, but there is more than just the V sole in the PTx irons. I know the information is available on their website and in the video here, but maybe they aren't doing enough to get the tech information out there. I had no clue until I looked at the information available here and then on the Hogan website and am really impressed with the technology in the new line.

Oh, and when I first read an article on their new hybrids I immediately thought that I need to try them. Their take on the design and what the club should do is genuinely unique (in my opinion).

And I'm only 32 and had no clue who Ben Hogan was when I was a kid. There is no nostalgia here for me, only interest in what seems to be a unique product. And I said this before knowing that I was picked for the Hogan event. I felt this way about the hybrid before the event was even announced.

 

[McLovin]

I guess you forgot about my comment in another thread about you resembling a famous Dallas Cowboy that we both laughed about after. It would have made more sense to you if you hadn't.

Sorry you feel like people aren't agreeing with you here. That is the beauty of a light hearted discussion on a topic. You being an attorney I'm sure can appreciate a topic being viewed from all sides without getting upset or saying things that you wish you hadn't said.

Enjoy your Cowboys golf and hope to see you out one day at one of our DFW local outings. Might help get a better perspective on some people here.

well said nate!


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[Desmond]

I guess you forgot about my comment in another thread about you resembling a famous Dallas Cowboy that we both laughed about after. It would have made more sense to you if you hadn't.

Sorry you feel like people aren't agreeing with you here. That is the beauty of a light hearted discussion on a topic. You being an attorney I'm sure can appreciate a topic being viewed from all sides without getting upset or saying things that you wish you hadn't said.

Enjoy your Cowboys golf and hope to see you out one day at one of our DFW local outings. Might help get a better perspective on some people here.

Nate, people don't need to agree but they can be agreeable. And yes, I vaguely remembered the reference later - thanks. From these posts, the guys here added knowledge of what Ben Hogan is doing and that is great information. I've had experiences where clients put out a product but no real plan. I see Hogan is developing their marketing bases.

I don't disagree with anything the guys have said - they added knowledge that I did not have. As I stated, my posts were based on what I knew - which was little about the facts, and only through the Hogan website and various posts.

In general,When someone agrees or disagrees with me, I typically say -- Agree, great points as to ...., but can we consider the following... What I've learned is that if you start where you agree, and then point out differences later, then people tend to be more receptive to areas of disagreement and one has a positive discussion. If you propose areas of disagreement as something to consider, you are inviting them into the discussion and all of us are less defensive and more honest and frank with less bias. If you come out and say "I don't agree... bam, bam, bam" then it becomes more of a contest than a discussion. Thanks.

Enjoy.

 

[McLovin]

In general,When someone agrees or disagrees with me, I typically say -- Agree, great points as to ...., but can we consider the following... What I've learned is that if you start where you agree, and then point out differences later, then people tend to be more receptive to areas of disagreement and one has a positive discussion. If you propose areas of disagreement as something to consider, you are inviting them into the discussion and all of us are less defensive and more honest and frank with less bias. If you come out and say "I don't agree... bam, bam, bam" then it becomes more of a contest than a discussion. Thanks.

brother, you and i live in the same world! maybe you're better at it than i am, but that deferential attitude and approach can be really hard depending on the personality. sometimes my job is like inception; i have to maneuver the conversation so that eventually the client thinks they came up with the great idea, when really it was my idea all along!

off topic of course, but nice to hear someone else knows the game.

 

[Desmond]

brother, you and i live in the same world! maybe you're better at it than i am, but that deferential attitude and approach can be really hard depending on the personality. sometimes my job is like inception; i have to maneuver the conversation so that eventually the client thinks they came up with the great idea, when really it was my idea all along!

off topic of course, but nice to hear someone else knows the game.

Agree - I indirectly suggest with a question and then tell the client they have a great idea or let it vegetate for a while until they bring it up. I've found that litigators have difficulty with being deferential. I let them know that I'm here to discuss the issues. Ask them for their story and develop empathy, and ask questions. Once they figure out you respect their position, they are slightly open to your story. The idea is to get everything out on the table and see if we can create a bigger piece of the pie so we come to agreement. It's tough - 99% of people and customers are great. I usually deal with the 1% and must remind myself that I deal with the troubling side. The toughest ones are the guys that won't even pick up the phone to negotiate -- everything is through a letter. Ugh, that is hardcore.

Back to Hogan so we're not off topic - I always thought Hogan had the best graphics in the business, loved the heads, but could not get along with his shafts for some reason. That's not an issue any longer -- Recoils are available.

 

[aslxa]

They have one huge thing going for them right now with these releases of the name and product. Me. Me being the one that played Hogans back in high school and college. Me. The guy who had to get a part time job over the summer months to purchase those Apex's for the fall season. Me. Who remembers those clubs like the back side of my hand even today. Me. Who now is 45, and remembers those high school days with my Hogans and who now has their own money to spend on those clubs again.

Everyone use to play Hogans at some point back in HS/College. Now those "me's" have careers and the money to spend. If they can somehow break into this segment again it would be a good start IMHO. Take me back Hogan..........take me back.

Yep, it was pretty much Hogan, Wilson and MacGregor that the "players" carried in that era. I play with a large group of guys in this age range and, outside of fondly remembering their old Apex irons, none of them have expressed any interest in the new Hogan irons. Those who are brand loyal and still play forged have moved to Titleist and Mizuno. Most however have moved to more game improvement clubs than Hogan currently offers. I'm cheering for them but that market is a very small slice of the golf pie.

 

[Nate]

Yep, it was pretty much Hogan, Wilson and MacGregor that the "players" carried in that era. I play with a large group of guys in this age range and, outside of fondly remembering their old Apex irons, none of them have expressed any interest in the new Hogan irons. Those who are brand loyal and still play forged have moved to Titleist and Mizuno. Most however have moved to more game improvement clubs than Hogan currently offers. I'm cheering for them but that market is a very small slice of the golf pie.

Large group meaning 10? 20? 50? How many have clubs fairly new? How many aren't looking for new clubs right now? How many would demo if given the opportunity? How many rounds do they play now? How many have actually looked at the makeup of the irons online?

So many more questions I would need answered from your sample of population to determine if your statement that these 35-50 year olds, with the most $$$$ to spend, would be considered a small slice to the company.

Can't wait for the 6 THP'ers to discover these answers and more in a little over a month.

 

[aslxa]

Large group meaning 10? 20? 50? How many have clubs fairly new? How many aren't looking for new clubs right now? How many would demo if given the opportunity? How many rounds do they play now? How many have actually looked at the makeup of the irons online?

So many more questions I would need answered from your sample of population to determine if your statement that these 35-50 year olds, with the most $$$$ to spend, would be considered a small slice to the company.

Can't wait for the 6 THP'ers to discover these answers and more in a little over a month.

I meant small slice in the sense that they are only selling forged clubs that probably not would not be considered game improvement. Maybe JB can weigh in here, but our local shop owner told me that forged iron sales make up only about 10% of the overall sales nationally.

My point about the group with which I play was poorly made on my part. The group is a bit older than you (50-65) and most have retired early and have a fair bit of disposable income (I live in a resort area). Most are pretty well informed about golf equipment. I'm just surprised none of them are interested in Hogan irons at all.

 

[Nate]

I meant small slice in the sense that they are only selling forged clubs that probably not would not be considered game improvement. Maybe JB can weigh in here, but our local shop owner told me that forged iron sales make up only about 10% of the overall sales nationally.

My point about the group with which I play was poorly made on my part. The group is a bit older than you (50-65) and most have retired early and have a fair bit of disposable income (I live in a resort area). Most are pretty well informed about golf equipment. I'm just surprised none of them are interested in Hogan irons at all.

The lack of interest could also be that these irons aren't even released yet. Might change once they are for a few.

 

[tequila4kapp]

It is such a tough business it is hard to predict anyone surviving. Many of the challenges have been mentioned above. Some thoughts on things they have going in their favor:
* There is always a place for quality.
* Although many/most on THP see it the other way, SO many people buy into the notion of jacked lofts and evil release cycles. Hogan will likely be seen by the masses as being on the right side of these issues.
* The Hogan name.

 

[RNG]

You know, I know it sounds simplistic but if they pay attention to details, I think they make it!

 

[JB]

I meant small slice in the sense that they are only selling forged clubs that probably not would not be considered game improvement. Maybe JB can weigh in here, but our local shop owner told me that forged iron sales make up only about 10% of the overall sales nationally.

My point about the group with which I play was poorly made on my part. The group is a bit older than you (50-65) and most have retired early and have a fair bit of disposable income (I live in a resort area). Most are pretty well informed about golf equipment. I'm just surprised none of them are interested in Hogan irons at all.

Your local shop is not correct.
I think people are getting confused between how an iron is made (forged vs cast) and whether or not an iron is forgiving. They are two different items and while cast is outselling forged irons, since Apex hit the scene, its much closer than that.

Similar way to look at is is lets look at a brand like Cobra. The Fly-Z outsold the Fly-Z+ 8 to 2. It does not mean the Fly-Z+ should not have been made, just that cost makes it a smaller market.

The difference here is that their first launch was a line that most companies are leaving (muscle backs) and in year 2, they have added the more forgiving option and a hybrid.

 

[aslxa]

The lack of interest could also be that these irons aren't even released yet. Might change once they are for a few.

That could be but I was also bunching in the Ft.Worth irons. We have guys in the group who play Miura and some other exotic brands - just surprised that Hogan has not made it on any of their radars. I personally am exited to see these but they are also probably out of my price range (and more than double the cost of the new iron set I just bought).

 

[tequila4kapp]

I absolutely love their products. The guys at the company are great. I like their mission and their ties to Hogan and Ft Worth. I am legitimately rooting for them. That said, they need to pick up the pace on their customer service if they want to be long term players.