Camilo possible rules violation... Phoned in?

JB

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Nope. The Yankee, Feinstein.
Ahhh. I was chatting with the other two about this very thing and they agree with most on here. One of them actually commented about your post interlooper a few pages ago.
 

Hawk

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Still not sure why it is so objectionable to expect that a sporting organization would officiate their own events.


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Ty_Webb

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My opinion:
1. He committed an infraction of the Rules Of Golf (tm)
2. A penalty of 2 strokes was appropriately assessed
3. He signed his score card before he was aware of the infraction, and therefore signed an incorrect score card
4. A penalty of a DQ was appropriately assessed

5. The PGA Tour should take steps to protect its players from these circumstances
5a. This could be in the form of more rules officials, better places officials (view the feeds) or by removing the ability to have fans call in
6. The PGA should reevaluate the penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard.
6a. This could be in the form of an extended grace period or by removing the rule entirely

Recap: The infraction and penalty were addressed appropriately according to the Rules Of Golf (tm), however the situation spotlights the need for a rules change or modification to protect professional players from future situations that may arise.
Or, and I appreciate that this one is pretty wacky and way out there, the players could make themselves conversant with the rules. That would then have the added bonus of avoiding them being penalised in any way shape or form.
 

Hawk

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Or, and I appreciate that this one is pretty wacky and way out there, the players could make themselves conversant with the rules. That would then have the added bonus of avoiding them being penalised in any way shape or form.
This is the same argument that we've been hearing from the beginning and (again) the point is completely being missed. Yes, they should know the rules. NOBODY has said otherwise. But, why can't the organization that holds the event be responsible for officiating it? And why can't they show some semblance of comptency in doing so? Obviously the players aren't policing themselves. Are we supposed to believe that Camilo is the only player out there that is breaking a rule and he just happened to be caught doing it? If an even playing field is important (which is most certainly is considering the money that is up for grabs) there ought to be measures to ensure that the viewing public isn't needed to call violations. Simple. Really simple. That hasn't been answered. It's like a pointless merry go round.
 

snicker.doodles

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This is the same argument that we've been hearing from the beginning and (again) the point is completely being missed. Yes, they should know the rules. NOBODY has said otherwise. But, why can't the organization that holds the event be responsible for officiating it? And why can't they show some semblance of comptency in doing so? Obviously the players aren't policing themselves. If an even playing field is important (which is most certainly is considering the money that is up for grabs) there ought to be some sort of measures to ensure that the viewing public isn't needed to call violations. Simple. Really simple. That hasn't been answered. It's like a pointless merry go round.


the bolded red seems to be a perfect reason for the players to be up to speed on the rules themselves. but i come from a background of being held accountable for my own actions.


perhaps if there were financial penalties for not knowing/following the rules....they might perk up to learning said rules. oh wait....that's what the DQ is for. nevermind.


blame someone else.
 

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These guys dont need to know the rules because the PGATour doesnt require them to know the rules. If you can count to 5, or 6, you can play on the PGATour. And if you ever think your possibly violating the rules, just yell the name sluggo, and someone will come running to you.

IMO, there should be testing done in late december and players should have to receive 75 or above to pass. Tough cookies kids, you need to take a quiz before you get to swing a golf club and get paid to do it.
This is the best solution. I know that rules training is part of the curriculum for a PGA Professional. Is it not required for a PGA Tour player? If that is the case then it isn't the rule that broken, it's the PGA Tour training that is.

Still not sure why it is so objectionable to expect that a sporting organization would officiate their own events.

Because it is fundamental to the game that the players officiate themselves. All players, at all levels. And that they take the consequences for their own actions.

I doubt that there is a single member here who would not have great respect for the player who calls a penalty on himself even though he is out in the woods with nobody around when he commits the infraction. Yet you still want to make this huge change in the game and make some official responsible catching for the player's breach. If that ever comes to pass, I doubt that you will ever again hear of a player calling a penalty on himself, because he will know that if nobody else sees it, he'll not only get away with it, but it will then be the right and proper thing to do because he is no longer responsible for his acts.

The next step will be the NBA rule... if you're a star, you can get away with more than the lesser players. And golf as we know it will cease to exist.
 

Ole Gray

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This is the same argument that we've been hearing from the beginning and (again) the point is completely being missed. Yes, they should know the rules. NOBODY has said otherwise. But, why can't the organization that holds the event be responsible for officiating it? And why can't they show some semblance of comptency in doing so? Obviously the players aren't policing themselves. Are we supposed to believe that Camilo is the only player out there that is breaking a rule and he just happened to be caught doing it? If an even playing field is important (which is most certainly is considering the money that is up for grabs) there ought to be measures to ensure that the viewing public isn't needed to call violations. Simple. Really simple. That hasn't been answered. It's like a pointless merry go round.
Hawk -- It's almost got to the point where I have forgot what we are debating about :bicker:.. I guess I need to mind my own buisness and watch some good ol fashion mud wrestling this weekend
 

Hawk

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pretty huge change. Guy with a badge watches the tv and gets on a walkie talkie instead of a guy at home getting on twitter. Keep trying.

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MO_Hacker

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Because it is fundamental to the game that the players officiate themselves. All players, at all levels. And that they take the consequences for their own actions.

I doubt that there is a single member here who would not have great respect for the player who calls a penalty on himself even though he is out in the woods with nobody around when he commits the infraction. Yet you still want to make this huge change in the game and make some official responsible catching for the player's breach. If that ever comes to pass, I doubt that you will ever again hear of a player calling a penalty on himself, because he will know that if nobody else sees it, he'll not only get away with it, but it will then be the right and proper thing to do because he is no longer responsible for his acts.

The next step will be the NBA rule... if you're a star, you can get away with more than the lesser players.
And golf as we know it will cease to exist.
I like this Fourputt, a slippery slope I'm sure nobody would want to start down.
 

Ty_Webb

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Im still confused on why having a Tour Official watch the feed that the viewers are seeing and make the calls over a guy on the coach is not perhaps #3?

That way, it is not "bush league" as Hawk said and everybody on TV still must follow (generalization about incident) the rules and does not get penaliZed.

Nobody is disputing that someone broke the rules on here that I have seen. I dont even think anybody is disputing the penalty that they should incur. What is being disputed is how the penalty is called and how it is ruled upon.

Having an official or PGA Tour make the ruling from the feed completely eliminates this entire ordeal. We keep hearing that the players police themselves. But clearly that is not the case.
I have no problem with having an official watch the feed. I'm not sure that it would eliminate the situation, because people make mistakes (witness Mr Villegas) and rules officials are not perfect. The issue is that once an infraction has been brought to the attention of the committee, they have no choice but to act on it, no matter where that information comes from. Hopefully in this situation, Villegas would have heard about it before he signed his card, but he'd still have got the two shot penalty.

As to people disputing the penalty, I've seen several posts suggesting that he shouldn't have been disqualified because he didn't know about it when he signed his card and several others advocating that if things don't come up until after the signing of the card, then the penalty should be waived altogether. Not sure what thread you've been reading. If however, people are actually disputing how this penalty was ruled upon, how do they think it was ruled upon? How do you think it was ruled upon? I think what happened is that the officials reviewed the video, saw a breach and assessed a penalty, then, since his card had been signed, the disqualification was assessed. Seems pretty simple, above board and correct to me. What's to dispute?

To players policing themselves, I'd say that it's their responsibility to police themselves. To the extent that they're not up to the task and therefore breach the rules and the committee find out about it, they should act upon that information.

Lastly, penalised is the British spelling of penalised, so your little capital Z in there is neither necessary, nor particularly grown up. Thanks for the reminder though.
 

snicker.doodles

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for the record....re: the neg rep for post #255


i am not being anymore condescending than anyone else here. and i am not here to argue. this is a healthy debate and i bring valid points. feel free to leave your name next time.
 

Hawk

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You are ignoring the possible inequities of allowing outside parties to have an affect on outcome of an event.

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JB

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pretty huge change. Guy with a badge watches the tv and gets on a walkie talkie instead of a guy at home getting on twitter. Keep trying.

Tapatalk: Not just for the bathroom.
Some keep thinking by having an official instead of guy on couch, players lose honor, integrity, ethics, etc...
 

snicker.doodles

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You are ignoring the possible inequities of allowing outside parties to have an affect on outcome of an event.

Tapatalk: Not just for the bathroom.

not certain who this is aimed for but i, and many others have voiced opinions against allowing outside agencies to make calls. the PGA Tour and the rules officials are ultimitately responsible for accurate scoring....after the player.
 

JB

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for the record....re: the neg rep for post #255


i am not being anymore condescending than anyone else here. and i am not here to argue. this is a healthy debate and i bring valid points. feel free to leave your name next time.
We have asked repeatedly to keep rep off the boards. In fact addressing it with you personally a number of times. If you have a problem with reputation received, feel free to take it up with one of our 4 mods and they can take a look for you.
 

Hawk

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not certain who this is aimed for but i, and many others have voiced opinions against allowing outside agencies to make calls. the PGA Tour and the rules officials are ultimitately responsible for accurate scoring....after the player.
The slippery slope argument. How much more slippery can you get than allowing outsiders (who may have an interest in the outcome of the event) have an effect on the outcome? That's beyond banana peel!
 

Ty_Webb

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This is the same argument that we've been hearing from the beginning and (again) the point is completely being missed. Yes, they should know the rules. NOBODY has said otherwise. But, why can't the organization that holds the event be responsible for officiating it? And why can't they show some semblance of comptency in doing so? Obviously the players aren't policing themselves. Are we supposed to believe that Camilo is the only player out there that is breaking a rule and he just happened to be caught doing it? If an even playing field is important (which is most certainly is considering the money that is up for grabs) there ought to be measures to ensure that the viewing public isn't needed to call violations. Simple. Really simple. That hasn't been answered. It's like a pointless merry go round.
Who do you think is officiating it? It wasn't the person that called in about it. He was NOT officiating in any way shape or form. He didn't assess a penalty and he didn't enforce the rules. He simply pointed out an infraction. What difference does it make who spots it? I imagine Villegas would rather the mistake was spotted sooner, but, once again, he has only himself to blame.
 

snicker.doodles

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We have asked repeatedly to keep rep off the boards. In fact addressing it with you personally a number of times. If you have a problem with reputation received, feel free to take it up with one of our 4 mods and they can take a look for you.

no problem. can you check into it?
 

Hawk

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The question isn't who called it in. It's who could have decided not to call it in because they were a fan. Or who could have called it in before the round was over because they were a fan. Or who could have called it in after the fact because they were not a fan. Etc, etc.
 

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Some keep thinking by having an official instead of guy on couch, players lose honor, integrity, ethics, etc...
It has nothing to do with honor. You take the responsibility away from the player and put it on the TV watching official. It weakens or obliterates Rule 1-2.
 
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JB

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It has nothing to dowith honor. You take the responsbility away from the player and put it on the TV watching official. It weakens or obliterates Rule 1-2.
No you dont. NOTHING changes. Its still up to the player. Yet instead of allowing people on teh couch make the call, it would be an official if a player misses it. Who made the call in the Dustin Johnson fiasco?
 

Hawk

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It has nothing to dowith honor. You take the responsbility away from the player and put it on the TV watching official. It weakens or obliterates Rule 1-2.
So let's just put in on a viewer at home instead.
 

Ty_Webb

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You are ignoring the possible inequities of allowing outside parties to have an affect on outcome of an event.

Tapatalk: Not just for the bathroom.
The only effect that outside parties can have is to make the outcome more correct. I get the impression that some people think if I don't want someone to win, I just have to call in and make up some infraction and they'll be disqualified. It only happens if the player has ACTUALLY broken the rules. In which case, as we've established, it's their fault. And, I think for anyone this has ever happened to, I think they'd accept the fact that they broke the rules and should have been penalised.
 

JB

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The only effect that outside parties can have is to make the outcome more correct. I get the impression that some people think if I don't want someone to win, I just have to call in and make up some infraction and they'll be disqualified. It only happens if the player has ACTUALLY broken the rules. In which case, as we've established, it's their fault. And, I think for anyone this has ever happened to, I think they'd accept the fact that they broke the rules and should have been penalised.
I dont think anybody EVER said anything of the sort.
 

Esox

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So put a guy in the booth. Great. Maybe that will solve the problem. It doesn't mean that Villegas got a raw deal because a viewer pointed out his mistake. There has been precedence for that.

I think I'm the only one that has voiced an opinion on Poulter's Tweets. It's disturbing to me that a tour player would insult the fans, then state that pointing out a rules violation was squealing. As if it's a school playground or a freakin' mafia movie. If a percentage of players on the tour feel the same way, it has a far greater problem.

Kevin
 

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