Steel President
New member
Wait, I thought this was USGA approved?
Governing bodies dictating to OEMs
Wait, I thought this was USGA approved?
Tbox
...By Height.
It was Callaway. I believe it was the ERC 2. It was not conforming. There were a couple people at our club who had them. From what I remember around this area they didn't sell really well. We have a lot of tournaments at our course and they were called out immediately.
Perkins Rooster
Active member
I think the governing bodies should dictate to the OEM's since it's their responsibility to set the rules. I think the current system is working well and see no reason to change. BTW, Tom Wishon does make a driver that doesn't conform to the COR limit. I think it's the 959OL, which has been measured around .86 IIRC. For a while Callaway sold the ERC as well.
I play with a couple of guys, and both have some sort of lofted putter thing they use for chipping. They are also pretty sure its not a 'legal' club for usga purposes. But so what? I personally don't mind it so long as they carry the right number of clubs in the bag.
I think the original question/post here though has two aspects to it. First is the legal aspect, which I hope I know something about. Legally, the USGA cannot control what the OEMs produce. However, they must have some sort of benefits they can yank away because as far as I'm concerned, the OEMs can make a wedge with non-conforming grooves if they want to. So if titleist wants to make square grooves, I believe they legally could (barring some contract otherwise), but they may lose some USGA blessing or promotion if they do it.
The second issue is the economics, which others have already discussed. Most people don't want a non-conforming club. When the USGA changes a rule, it effects the market. To that end, OEMs exist in a free market, and they will produce clubs that are in demand. The USGA can change rules all it wants and the OEMs can not do anything about it, even though the rule changes alter demand in the market.
Just my thoughts.
~Rock
I think the original question/post here though has two aspects to it. First is the legal aspect, which I hope I know something about. Legally, the USGA cannot control what the OEMs produce. However, they must have some sort of benefits they can yank away because as far as I'm concerned, the OEMs can make a wedge with non-conforming grooves if they want to. So if titleist wants to make square grooves, I believe they legally could (barring some contract otherwise), but they may lose some USGA blessing or promotion if they do it.
The second issue is the economics, which others have already discussed. Most people don't want a non-conforming club. When the USGA changes a rule, it effects the market. To that end, OEMs exist in a free market, and they will produce clubs that are in demand. The USGA can change rules all it wants and the OEMs can not do anything about it, even though the rule changes alter demand in the market.
Just my thoughts.
~Rock
- Admin
- #30
I think you are mistaken on how many people use real handicaps. Almost every golf club I have ever visited has a mens league and tournaments. To play in any of those, you must have a real handicap.
- Admin
- #31
Unless its two sided, it is absolutely legal, just like the Cleveland Niblick.
TripleBogieTim
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Yep, that was it....didn't they make a crapload of them and at the last minute the USGA declared them illegal...wasnt it something like that because they came out with a legal model of it not long afterwards I think.
arydolphin
GTHC!
As others have mentioned, Callaway did this back in the early 2000s with their ERC driver. There was a pretty healthy debate at that time about whether amateurs should be able to buy an "illegal" club. This was around the time where the governing bodies set the 0.83 COR limit on drivers, I also believe that TaylorMade sold some drivers that were 0.86 COR right around the time that the 0.83 rule came in. The drivers that were over the limit did not sell well at all, most people wanted to play legal stuff.
Most recreational golfers already don't play by USGA rules (mulligans, gimmes, not taking stroke and distance when hitting it OB, etc.), but when it comes to equipment, I think that almost all golfers' brains are wired differently and they don't want to play "illegal" equipment.
gioguy21
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personally, i like to play with legal, conforming clubs. for two reasons: one, i like to know that if i ever wanted to play a tourney that the clubs in my bag (which i've grown used to) are the ones i can play with and two, because in my eyes, "if it's illegal it's cheating" and i'm not one to cheat, simple as that. when it comes to playing side games and whatnot i always play with the same group of guys so there isn't any REAL sandbagging that happens. we can tell week to week how the guys are playing so, knowing what kinda clubs they have and whatnot isn't a concern (we're all good fellas). will there always be people looking to find workarounds and loopholes or ppl trying to get better with a 'cheating' kinda fix? yea...as long as there's honest competition there will be at least one dishonest competitor.
d_in_la
Not so in LA.
How is this any different from the Polara golf ball conversation? Of course there is a market for a non-conforming club, it might not be a HUGE hit right off the bat, but with persistence, some marketing, lots of testing with THP and who knows how successful it could be?! We might be at a tipping point where consumers are willing to use products the pros don't.
Now, any THPer bringing that club to a get together would be mercilessly teased. Until they start dropping center-of-fairway bombs.
Now, any THPer bringing that club to a get together would be mercilessly teased. Until they start dropping center-of-fairway bombs.
Damaikis
Fairway Finder
They should make illegal clubs for those that want to use them. I wouldn't, but I think some would.
Jeanthemachine
Earl of Limerick
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Non-conforming clubs, illegal balls, foot wedges, tee it up in the fairway, six foot gimmies; do whatever you want just don't call it golf.
Someone needs to make the rules so we can compete fairly.
Someone needs to make the rules so we can compete fairly.
BamBooBender
See-Moe
^^^ This.
- Thread starter
- #40
I actually don't know how many golfers know or care about their equipment. The club wouldn't have to be advertised as illegal. I think if the club got the same release attention as any new driver does, it would sell. Regardless of whether it conforms or not.
arydolphin
GTHC!
Serious question: Do you want to walk around known as the guy playing illegal stuff? For some golfers, that's like wearing a scarlet I on their shirt. Look at how the Polara balls are marketed: they are marketed as balls that go straighter and let you have more fun. They are not heavily marketed as illegal, you have to dig around a little bit to find that they are not approved for USGA competition.
A driver like that would have to be marketed as longer and straighter than anything out there....but there are already a bunch of companies taking that approach with their conforming equipment. Also, you may be right in saying that you don't know how many golfers care about their equipment, but trying to advance that line of thinking on this site isn't going to go very far, as you may have figured out.
tnc200
The Snowman
I've seen plenty of non-conforming equipment for sale. It has never occurred to me to purchase any of it. It just always seemed gimmicky. However I've still got pre-groove rule wedges and will continue to use them till I get a newer better set, but the rule never put me in the market for new wedges. Im pretty sure Im allowed to track a hdcp and play tourneys with them for quite a few more years.
Playdough
Hi.
If a guy wants go use illegal equipment thats fine. I'll be sure to let him know even with his bag full of illegal, I'll still give him 3 a side and will probably have those made up in the first few holes. Because no good or even decent golfer is going to have that in his bag. Market it away, advertise the crap out of it, but theres a reason that goof-ball on golf channel is standing in front of rack full of RI Wedges and gives half of them away. 97% of people don't buy golf equipment unless the Top 10 in the world use it.....we are the 3% that will buy what works the best.
huhhh
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Thing #1 How many golfers that don't care about their equipment are going to drop $499 on a driver, illegal or not?
Thing #2 If an illegal driver got the same release attention as any new driver wouldn't most of the reviews and write ups make a note that is is illegal.
Thing #3 I think you may underestimate how many people want to play with the same clubs the pros play with. Even if they hit it further with an illegal.
- Thread starter
- #45
I think it could be really interesting to see. Especially if the company scoffs in the face of the USGA.
I don't know if I really care if people agree with my opinion on this subject. it's an interesting idea nonetheless. And just because I may be the only person who feels as such, doesn't mean I'm not going to keep it to myself.
TripleBogieTim
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The ERC driver we referred to had a sticker on the face declaring it NON Conforming to USGA rules....there are clubs and balls now that don't conform....but somewhere I believe that they have to say they are non conforming. You can buy "hot" balls or shaved clubs but I don't think any of them sell very well.
- Thread starter
- #47
Why do they have to have a stamp or mark showing they're nonconforming? What if an OEM said to the USGA "nope. We're not doing that." What could happen?
Mr. Satchmo
urielsatchmoortegaMR.Jinx
Exactly when they give me a tour card, then I'll conform but for the general public, it's not like the usga follows us during our rounds and penalizes us for using our foot wedge do they? haha. I would buy it. I don't understand why they won't just dictate only what goes on tour
davo3535
New member
Non conforming clubs are a bit of a hot item on eBay. There is a version of the Taylormade R5 that is non conforming. These almost always go for way above the asking price for a "normal" R5. I think there may also
Be a Nike Sumo driver that is in the same boat.
I always found it interesting that someone is willing to cheat for maybe a few extra yards.
Be a Nike Sumo driver that is in the same boat.
I always found it interesting that someone is willing to cheat for maybe a few extra yards.