Making A Murderer (Spoilers)

Canadan

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The bullet with her DNA matching the gun that was in his room, that's enough for me with all the other stuff involved.
Does it make sense to you how a bullet with her DNA can get into the garage without any other DNA elements present in that location (minus Avery's, which essentially confirms he didn't clean anything up)?
 

ddec

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Does it make sense to you how a bullet with her DNA can get into the garage without any other DNA elements present in that location (minus Avery's, which essentially confirms he didn't clean anything up)?
I already mentioned that I was surprised there wasn't more DNA found in the locations and that he would have left his blood and DNA in the car based on the thought that everywhere else was seemingly clean.

But based on what I watched and then read afterwords on things not brought up in the docuseries, if I was on the jury, I would have convicted him.

Last person to see her
Made request for her to be the photographer
Made several phone calls to her, even masking his number
Car found on Avery Property
His blood in the car
His DNA under the latch of the trunk
Her DNA found on a bullet, that ballistics proves was fired from his gun that was in his bedroom
Her bones found in his burn pit


Now do I think it was a sloppy investigation and a police unit that might have an ax to grind? Absolutely. But I still believe he is guilty.
 

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I already mentioned that I was surprised there wasn't more DNA found in the locations and that he would have left his blood and DNA in the car based on the thought that everywhere else was seemingly clean.

But based on what I watched and then read afterwords on things not brought up in the docuseries, if I was on the jury, I would have convicted him.

Last person to see her
Made request for her to be the photographer
Made several phone calls to her, even masking his number
Car found on Avery Property
His blood in the car
His DNA under the latch of the trunk
Her DNA found on a bullet, that ballistics proves was fired from his gun that was in his bedroom
Her bones found in his burn pit


Now do I think it was a sloppy investigation and a police unit that might have an ax to grind? Absolutely. But I still believe he is guilty.
Thanks for highlighting all the things that get forgotten... I have to drive through Manitowoc County all the time, and i don't feel like the sheriff's office is out there framing people... Maybe sloppy, because well, they've had probably 3 murders in the last 30 years (Calumet County probably even less than that), but i really don't think they did what is being suggested.
 

ddec

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I will avoid beating a dead horse, but here is the visual for the purple top tube.

The vial comes empty, sealed, with a substance (in this case EDTA), and enough negative pressure to withdraw approximately 3 cc of blood. Notice the self healing rubber is unremarkable.


You fill a vial simply by sticking a syringe filled with blood through the sealed rubber stopper. The negative pressure in the vial extracts 3cc from the syringe.
https://vimeo.com/150823079

Vial will now have a hole in the sealed rubber stopper...


Having a hole in said EDTA rubber stopper does not mean that the sample had been tampered with, and it would be VERY hard to stick the exact same spot (I tried and failed a few times)

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going back through the thread. This post is pretty damn good. Thanks for the demo.
 

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Alright. You can tell me without a shadow of a doubt that he DID kill her? I must be missing something.

In my kitchen, there are two pieces of bread missing, a knife with peanut butter on it in the sink, and the toaster is still a bit warm. Can you, without a shadow of a doubt, confirm that I had toast with peanut butter on it for breakfast? My wife is also at home, and claims to have been upstairs since last night.

Here are the facts:
1 - I love me some peanut butter
2 - I don't usually eat much for breakfast
3 - I have a history with the toaster
4 - My DNA is everywhere
If you really ate peanut butter toast, you would have licked the remaining peanut butter off the knife. This was a doggy frame up. Details.....
 

Canadan

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All fair points, but let me add some cloud to that.

1 - If he's in the business of auto salvage, why wouldn't he just crush the Rav4?
2 - Bones in the pit, but could they have been planted (possible)
3 - bullet in the garage, but could it have been planted (likely based on ZERO DNA elsewhere in garage)
4 - Key found after multiple searches in plain sight could have been planted (realistic?)
5 - Did he take a joyride with her dead body in her car before burning her? Does that make any sense at all?

It seems like every element of evidence, short of him making the strange calls (he's a strange dude to begin with) have cloud on them.
 

Canadan

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If you really ate peanut butter toast, you would have licked the remaining peanut butter off the knife. This was a doggy frame up. Details.....
hahahaha! Just thought it was a fun example loaded with opinion. Just imagine if the peanut butter was found in the garage months later.
 

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All fair points, but let me add some cloud to that.

1 - If he's in the business of auto salvage, why wouldn't he just crush the Rav4?
2 - Bones in the pit, but could they have been planted (possible)
3 - bullet in the garage, but could it have been planted (likely based on ZERO DNA elsewhere in garage)
4 - Key found after multiple searches in plain sight could have been planted (realistic?)
5 - Did he take a joyride with her dead body in her car before burning her? Does that make any sense at all?

It seems like every element of evidence, short of him making the strange calls (he's a strange dude to begin with) have cloud on them.

My exact train of thought
 

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Making A Murderer (Spoilers)

Last person to see her
Made request for her to be the photographer
Made several phone calls to her, even masking his number
Car found on Avery Property
His blood in the car
His DNA under the latch of the trunk
Her DNA found on a bullet, that ballistics proves was fired from his gun that was in his bedroom
Her bones found in his burn pit

Now do I think it was a sloppy investigation and a police unit that might have an ax to grind? Absolutely. But I still believe he is guilty.
All of the questions raised are interesting. It's at this point that we need to step back and remember we watched a slanted presentation. It's like listening to a telephone conversation and only hearing one person speak. Of course they're going to raise questions. But see ddec's post above.

The trial and investigation were far from perfect. As an academic or societal inspection of our system we can say this was messed up. But real life "what happened?" He did it.


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ddec

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All fair points, but let me add some cloud to that.

1 - If he's in the business of auto salvage, why wouldn't he just crush the Rav4?
2 - Bones in the pit, but could they have been planted (possible)
3 - bullet in the garage, but could it have been planted (likely based on ZERO DNA elsewhere in garage)
4 - Key found after multiple searches in plain sight could have been planted (realistic?)
5 - Did he take a joyride with her dead body in her car before burning her? Does that make any sense at all?

It seems like every element of evidence, short of him making the strange calls (he's a strange dude to begin with) have cloud on them.
1. Would it perhaps seem unusual to crush a car say at 10 at night? Is his car crusher loud, would it cause alarm to anyone else in the area? Would they then be able to say her vehicle is missing, oh and we heard Avery's car crushing running at an unusual time on Friday night?
2. Bones in the pit but also other of her artifacts found in a burn barrel. I don't believe they were planted.
3. The part of the bullet to me is that it has her DNA and it came from his gun. Could it have been planted, sure. But with her DNA on it to me, it makes it genuine regardless of location on his property.
4.The key part to me I have admitted, it's very curious.
5. Sick people to sick things. Or strange, which we agree on, he's strange.

The joy ride part....remember the big prison break story from last summer from NY? One of the the 2 men was in jail because he dismembered his boss and then drove around with his body parts in the trunk of his car. I'ts not impossible to think that he Avery killed her, and went to dispose her body elsewhere, before thinking of a different way of doing so.
 

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So just so i understand the other side of this argument, would the actual events be she randomly got murdered on the side of the road by someone else in a county with relatively low violence of this magnitude, a manitowoc county sheriff saw it, threw her in the back, took her somewhere else, burned her body, towed the car to the salvage yard, planted it where they found it, stuck her bones and such in the burn pile, and then planted the key in his house? I'd be more likely to agree it could've been one of his other scumbag family members before the sheriff's department. But then what does that say about their family? Kill the girl and plant it on Steven and his stupid bumbling nephew?

Doesn't Occam's razor apply here?
 

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So just so i understand the other side of this argument, would the actual events be she randomly got murdered on the side of the road by someone else in a county with relatively low violence of this magnitude, a manitowoc county sheriff saw it, threw her in the back, took her somewhere else, burned her body, towed the car to the salvage yard, planted it where they found it, stuck her bones and such in the burn pile, and then planted the key in his house? I'd be more likely to agree it could've been one of his other scumbag family members before the sheriff's department. But then what does that say about their family? Kill the girl and plant it on Steven and his stupid bumbling nephew?

Doesn't Occam's razor apply here?
Is it ok to but someone in jail for life based on Occam's razor? Is there enough reasonable doubt?
 

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All of the questions raised are interesting. It's at this point that we need to step back and remember we watched a slanted presentation. It's like listening to a telephone conversation and only hearing one person speak. Of course they're going to raise questions. But see ddec's post above.

The trial and investigation were far from perfect. As an academic or societal inspection of our system we can say this was messed up. But real life "what happened?" He did it.


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somewhere like halfway in, I thought he was being completely railroaded. In fact I talked to CJ about it because I knew he had watched it already and wouldn't spoil anything.
 

Canadan

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So just so i understand the other side of this argument, would the actual events be she randomly got murdered on the side of the road by someone else in a county with relatively low violence of this magnitude, a manitowoc county sheriff saw it, threw her in the back, took her somewhere else, burned her body, towed the car to the salvage yard, planted it where they found it, stuck her bones and such in the burn pile, and then planted the key in his house? I'd be more likely to agree it could've been one of his other scumbag family members before the sheriff's department. But then what does that say about their family? Kill the girl and plant it on Steven and his stupid bumbling nephew?

Doesn't Occam's razor apply here?
Is this about Stephen vs the World? Does it need to be proven it was someone else before it becomes no longer him? While I agree with many that the series supports his side of the story heavily, I must say, it's very much a guilty until proven innocent presentation from everything I've read/seen.
 

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Is it ok to but someone in jail for life based on Occam's razor? Is there enough reasonable doubt?
I guess where i struggle is that there are 3 parties to putting anybody away. The prosecutors, the judge and the jury. At least that's how our system has been setup. So to argue this guy got completely railroaded is hard for me to believe. Yes, the prosecutors could go out of their way to prove a case, the judge could rule against the defense on motions regarding trial matters, but then the jury could always say 'no way' he's not guilty... Yet they came back and said he was guilty. To argue they wanted to do a split decision, and it would get appealed, is the dumbest thing i've ever heard if you convict him of the 1st degree murder charge. Go not guilty on that one if you think there wasn't enough evidence...

With regards to Occam's razor, i guess i was just implying that we are trying to find all these other reasons why it wasn't him, what wasn't proven is that he couldn't have did it. He appears to have motive, possible violent tendancies, and didn't have an alibi that i am aware of during the time she allegedly was killed...
 

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All of the questions raised are interesting. It's at this point that we need to step back and remember we watched a slanted presentation. It's like listening to a telephone conversation and only hearing one person speak. Of course they're going to raise questions. But see ddec's post above.

The trial and investigation were far from perfect. As an academic or societal inspection of our system we can say this was messed up. But real life "what happened?" He did it.
I am impressed that you can say that without a shadow of a doubt. One sided or not, what part of this trial did you participate in that I apparently wasn't privy to?

Agreed the series was one sided, and that's fine. But without a shadow of a doubt guilty? Show me the concrete facts so i can understand your reasoning.
 

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I guess where i struggle is that there are 3 parties to putting anybody away. The prosecutors, the judge and the jury. At least that's how our system has been setup. So to argue this guy got completely railroaded is hard for me to believe. Yes, the prosecutors could go out of their way to prove a case, the judge could rule against the defense on motions regarding trial matters, but then the jury could always say 'no way' he's not guilty... Yet they came back and said he was guilty. To argue they wanted to do a split decision, and it would get appealed, is the dumbest thing i've ever heard if you convict him of the 1st degree murder charge. Go not guilty on that one if you think there wasn't enough evidence...

With regards to Occam's razor, i guess i was just implying that we are trying to find all these other reasons why it wasn't him, what wasn't proven is that he couldn't have did it. He appears to have motive, possible violent tendancies, and didn't have an alibi that i am aware of during the time she allegedly was killed...
To me the fact that someone can be wrongfully accused and locked away and that our justice system is flawed was the whole point of the "documentary". I don't think they are painting him as innocent, but rather showing the reasonable doubt in this case plus all the issues in the previous case against Mr. Avery. It scares me to think of the lengths it appears the Sheriff's department went to help the case along.
 

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With all the focus on Steven, what about Brendan?
Do you believe he should be convicted? Should he receive a new trial?
Do you have problems with his confessions?
Do you feel he recieved adequate counsel?
Was he treated as a normal person by investigators, and do you feel this was just?
 

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I am impressed that you can say that without a shadow of a doubt. One sided or not, what part of this trial did you participate in that I apparently wasn't privy to?

Agreed the series was one sided, and that's fine. But without a shadow of a doubt guilty? Show me the concrete facts so i can understand your reasoning.
I didn't say shadow of a doubt or to the legal standard of reasonable doubt. I said real life, as in common sense.

I am a massive fan of this genre - The First 48, 48 Hours, Forensic Files, etc. I watch them all regularly. It is a rare day indeed where there's a perfect investigation, zero doubt, etc. Well, at least for ones that end up on tv. I am usually in the camp that sees reasonable doubt where others see it differently (thank you law school for instilling a certain view of our Constitution and system). That is counterbalanced here by my believe that the film makers are 100% biased.

I was at the same trial you were ... just saying. Of course the real jurors were there and they made a decision.


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Canadan

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With all the focus on Steven, what about Brendan?
Do you believe he should be convicted? Should he receive a new trial?
Do you have problems with his confessions?
Do you feel he recieved adequate counsel?
Was he treated as a normal person by investigators, and do you feel this was just?
Dassey's case is an interesting one... They railroaded him for the confession, force fed him some of the most important elements (like getting shot in the head), and then spent the next few years listening to him recant and change his story.

Those who opt to use his story as fact ignore the whole portion of confession that includes her being tied to a bed and raped, which zero evidence confirmed. The most accurate thing about the story was the elements in the fire, which would have been in the fire regardless of whether they were burning a body in there.

I am pretty surprised that a 16 year old's spoon fed confession of that nature is enough to convict someone of murder, especially when he recants not long after. if you want a sample of why I think it's soft, look at the cousin who made up her own story and then admitted it was nonsense in court. One is believed, the other is in jail.
 

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With all the focus on Steven, what about Brendan?
Do you believe he should be convicted? Should he receive a new trial? I think (without much knowledge of how this works) that he should.
Do you have problems with his confessions? Yes
Do you feel he recieved adequate counsel? Sure didn't look that way.
Was he treated as a normal person by investigators, and do you feel this was just? He appeared an easy mark, and was taken advantage of.
answers above...
 

Canadan

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I didn't say shadow of a doubt or to the legal standard of reasonable doubt. I said real life, as in common sense.

I am a massive fan of this genre - The First 48, 48 Hours, Forensic Files, etc. I watch them all regularly. It is a rare day indeed where there's a perfect investigation, zero doubt, etc. Well, at least for ones that end up on tv. I am usually in the camp that sees reasonable doubt where others see it differently (thank you law school for instilling a certain view of our Constitution and system). That is counterbalanced here by my believe that the film makers are 100% biased.

I was at the same trial you were ... just saying. Of course the real jurors were there and they made a decision.
The hardest part about the Avery case, for me, is utilizing common sense. If he did in fact kill her, common sense would have included not driving her around in her car while she was bleeding (or dead) in the trunk.

Common sense suggests they would have found the key on first search. Common sense would anticipate her DNA on the key.
Common sense would have her DNA elsewhere in the garage if a bullet fragment with her DNA was found in there. Common sense would suggest that bullet fragment would be found in the first search.

The blood is damning in the car, but you add doubt when a vial of his blood shows it being tampered with and re-taped. Can you absolutely confirm blood was removed? No. Can you confirm it wasn't?
 

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to me the story of his nephew is much more interesting. I see more issues with the system during his part of the story. His counsel was awful and the way his confession came about was worse.
 

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Does it make sense to you how a bullet with her DNA can get into the garage without any other DNA elements present in that location (minus Avery's, which essentially confirms he didn't clean anything up)?
Dassey said he helped him clean the garage up with bleach, and the pants he said he was wearing with bleach on them was recovered.

If her blood were on the floor of the garage near the door, and removed with bleach, and his DNA was found on the work bench, that would explain his DNA being found and not his.

Also keep in mind this isn't CSI. People think we are dealing with Dexter and CSI level forensics. I've dealt with crime scene techs at a MUCH (probably 200 times the size) larger Sheriff's office with a much higher level of crime they deal with on a daily basis. They miss stuff all the time, and some of them will do all they can to check as few areas as possible (some of them were great). At that point in time they were not focused on the garage anymore than any other part of the house.

Keep in mind Calumet County has 17 Deputies on the Road, not sure how many Manitowoc has, but I imagine its in the same area. The level of crime scene investigation was probably not that high.
 

Canadan

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Dassey said he helped him clean the garage up with bleach, and the pants he said he was wearing with bleach on them was recovered.

If her blood were on the floor of the garage near the door, and removed with bleach, and his DNA was found on the work bench, that would explain his DNA being found and not his.

Also keep in mind this isn't CSI. People think we are dealing with Dexter and CSI level forensics. I've dealt with crime scene techs at a MUCH (probably 200 times the size) larger Sheriff's office with a much higher level of crime they deal with on a daily basis. They miss stuff all the time, and some of them will do all they can to check as few areas as possible (some of them were great). At that point in time they were not focused on the garage anymore than any other part of the house.

Keep in mind Calumet County has 17 Deputies on the Road, not sure how many Manitowoc has, but I imagine its in the same area. The level of crime scene investigation was probably not that high.
Have you watched the series? The investigators (during the trial) claim to have reviewed every piece of anything in the garage. They found Avery's DNA exclusively.

This is also another nice sample of selectively believing the Dassey testimony. If his comments are to believed, why only some of them? Is there still value in his confession if a majority of it can not be proven (bedroom raping/bounding/etc)?
 

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