Official 2011-2012 NBA Season Thread

[TC]

I saw this before, and it made me wonder what MJ thinks of Wilt, Magic, the O, and others like that. I think it made him come off as a bit cocky.

I know that article is looking at the time after MJ's reign, but still. And I don't think that a LeBron-MJ comparison can be made yet, and it likely never will be close unless LeBron cleans it up.

I don't think MJ played with Wilt and Oscar though. Nor did society and the media peg those guys with the "next" tag.

 

[Kmac]

Nah, I'm just giving you kids a tough time. I like LBJ, he's a freak, but he's not clutch at all. I think he's a good person too, which means a lot to me.



His Airness speaks, the kids should listen. I bet MJ would've won twice the amount of titles if he were Texan.

That goes without question.

 

[bahester]

His Airness speaks, the kids should listen. I bet MJ would've won twice the amount of titles if he were Texan.

As a HUGE Jordan fan I have all the respect in the world for MJ and what he thinks. I think at this point in time it's pretty obvious the only person right now that can be compared to MJ is Kobe. Nothing really to argue. LBJ is indeed a physical freak, but I really don't think he has the killer mentality.

 

[JB]

I didn't see any of Pippen's career as you probably know, and I'm sure a bunch feel that he shouldn't be in. That feat I posted above, no matter how it came about, is VERY impressive. I know there is more to it than #'s, but IMO #'s play a HUGE role, much bigger than success. It is a team sport after all. Oscar Robertson for example. He won 1 NBA Championship but also averaged a triple-double, the only person to do so in the NBA. That's impressive.

I think the bolded part pretty much says it all.
Oscar Robertson won a title. He never struggled to perform in the clutch and was gifted throughout his career.
And Magic Johnson was mere tenths of a point away from averaging a triple double as well (if they round up, like they always do, he does average one).

I am all for comparisons and numbers, but perspective is a bigger role and so is witnessing the acts. Seeing as though you saw neither of these and are reading only stat lines (nothing wrong with that), you cant say its about numbers over clutch performance, because you failed to see any of their clutch performances. Oscar Robertson was not a 4th quarter meltdown guy. He was a guy that played 100% all the time and wanted the ball in his hands at the end. Just as any GOAT candidate does.

 

[Damaikis]

I don't think MJ played with Wilt and Oscar though. Nor did society and the media peg those guys with the "next" tag.

I'm just curious what he thinks of them. As in does he think they might possibly be on his level as well.

 

[TC]

I'm just curious what he thinks of them. As in does he think they might possibly be on his level as well.

I don't know. Maybe Oscar but who knows with Wilt, totally different position and all. Ever notice that no big men are touted as the next MJ?

 

[Damaikis]

I think the bolded part pretty much says it all.
Oscar Robertson won a title. He never struggled to perform in the clutch and was gifted throughout his career.
And Magic Johnson was mere tenths of a point away from averaging a triple double as well (if they round up, like they always do, he does average one).

I am all for comparisons and numbers, but perspective is a bigger role and so is witnessing the acts. Seeing as though you saw neither of these and are reading only stat lines (nothing wrong with that), you cant say its about numbers over clutch performance, because you failed to see any of their clutch performances. Oscar Robertson was not a 4th quarter meltdown guy. He was a guy that played 100% all the time and wanted the ball in his hands at the end. Just as any GOAT candidate does.

That makes sense, and I do my best without having seen most of these things like you said. One more thing, LeBron hasn't always been meltdown guy, mostly just with the Heat. In fact, he has one of the greatest clutch performances of all time IMO (vs Pistons, Game 5, Eastern Conference Finals).

 

[Rekimoto]

Four turnovers a game is not good no matter how much you handle the ball. Its among the worst in the league and a number that plagues teams come the playoffs. Its a result of jump passes and poor decisions (not just him but high TOs) and no matter how much you have the ball in your hand (which is less now than in Cleveland), 4 a game is too high in todays NBA.

To give you an idea, here are some comparisons since people seem to think he is on pace to be the GOAT.

Michael Jordan - 2.73 career
Kobe Bryant - 2.94

These are the two that seem to come up the most in the comparison from fans and you can see almost a full turnover less per game. To be the best, you have to do 3 things well along with all of the other stuff that LBJ does do very well.

1. Make Free Throws
2. Score when it counts
3. Not turn the ball over

Those are the 3 things keeping LBJ from moving up those ranks in the eyes of many and also winning a ring.

Well, Lebron will never be Jordan and so he'll never be the greatest of all time.

I think you're missing the point of what i was saying. You often call people out for looking at stat because they can be misleading, and i think turnovers per game is a very poor stat when brought up on its own. You're also comparing Lebron's worst season statistically speaking for TOPG to MJ and Kobe's CAREER AVG for TOPG...thats just not good science. Lebron's career average is actually pretty similar to those two at 3.0tpg. This season is also just 15games deep and im sure we'll see lebron's average trend downward (along with Kobe's 3.9tpg) over the course of a full season.

I also should have been more specific when i said 'handles the ball' but Lebron uses about 33% of his team's possessions and 14% of those possessions end in a TO, which is actually pretty good for someone who plays the roll of facilitator. The #1 cause of a TO is an ill-advised or errant pass, and kobe and MJ just dont/didnt have the same percentage of their plays end in a pass.

TO per game is a very different stat depending on the player's role. For instance, magic johnson had a career TPG of 3.9, he was pretty great and won 5 championships.

Although lebron isnt having the best 15 game stretch of his career turning the ball over, i think in context and putting things a little bit more into perspective shows he's doing real well.

 

[Damaikis]

I don't know. Maybe Oscar but who knows with Wilt, totally different position and all. Ever notice that no big men are touted as the next MJ?

True, but I think Wilt was the most dominant player in NBA history. Hard to match what he did. Maybe not most skilled, but most dominant.

 

[Rekimoto]

True, but I think Wilt was the most dominant player in NBA history. Hard to match what he did. Maybe not most skilled, but most dominant.

I think Manute Bol would have been the most dominant player in the NBA if he had only gotten the minutes...

 

[bahester]

I think Manute Bol would have been the most dominant player in the NBA if he had only gotten the minutes...

Man I wish Len Bias would've gotten a shot and David Thompson would've not been an idiot and tried to live up to his potential.

 

[JB]

True, but I think Wilt was the most dominant player in NBA history. Hard to match what he did. Maybe not most skilled, but most dominant.

And yet when he played against Bill Russell, who could play defense and matchup slightly, his numbers were down. Have you ever watched a full Wilt game? Not highlights but a full game. I think it would be hard to watch a full game of his and call him the most dominant. Bill won 11 titles in 13 years and would have won a 12th had he not gotten injured. He was the best shot blocker arguably ever and did things nobody had ever seen before and played within his team. Dominating means you dominate the field which brings wins.

 

[Damaikis]

And yet when he played against Bill Russell, who could play defense and matchup slightly, his numbers were down. Have you ever watched a full Wilt game? Not highlights but a full game. I think it would be hard to watch a full game of his and call him the most dominant. Bill won 11 titles in 13 years and would have won a 12th had he not gotten injured. He was the best shot blocker arguably ever and did things nobody had ever seen before and played within his team. Dominating means you dominate the field which brings wins.

Again, it's a team game. One player has trouble carrying a whole team. That's obviously only part of it, but still.

And besides, I think it's going to be an awfully long time before we see somebody get 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season. And I think it's going to be a long time before we see anyone come close to 100 points in a game. People say Kobe came close, but in reality, he had 81 points, which is 20.25 per quarter. It would have taken him almost another whole quarter at that pace to reach it.

One thing about the 100 points game stands out to me: Wilt scored a lot of it on the fast break. The day before the game, his opponent said they'd beat him by outrunning him, so Wilt ran the fast break. Being 7 foot and running the fast break effectively? Wow.

 

[JB]

The rules were different for centers, so an athletic big man could score points at will. Ever wonder why if he dominated so much, he didnt win?

 

[Damaikis]

The rules were different for centers, so an athletic big man could score points at will. Ever wonder why if he dominated so much, he didnt win?

I get that it was different back then, but no matter what it was like 50 and 25 is unreal. Nothing will change that.

And I never thought too much about him not winning and that's a good point. But again, basketball is a TEAM game. One player has trouble winning all by himself, no matter how great they are. Not saying Wilt was by himself necessarily (I don't know who else was on his team), but most of the other greats who won a bunch did it with other good players on their team.

 

[JB]

You never answered my question. Have you ever actually watched one of his games? The entire game, not clips. There is no way anybody that sits through it could call him the most dominating player ever. You keep saying its a team game, its a team game. Watch the entire game where he scored 100 and tell me what you think.

 

[Damaikis]

You never answered my question. Have you ever actually watched one of his games? The entire game, not clips. There is no way anybody that sits through it could call him the most dominating player ever. You keep saying its a team game, its a team game. Watch the entire game where he scored 100 and tell me what you think.

I haven't watched a whole one of his games but I sure would like to. I just can't put it through my mind how anything can justify somebody who put up numbers like that is not the most dominating player ever. I'm open to change, but as I've heard you say a lot of times, numbers don't lie. 50 and 25 over an 80 game season is hard to top.

 

[JB]

Numbers dont lie, but neither does perspective. You are calling someone the most ____ ever, and you have never watched a full game. Wilt was a great player, no question about it, but basing everything in the world off of his mere stats when the rules were not the same as they were shortly after him, is absurd without witnessing those acts.

 

[Damaikis]

Numbers dont lie, but neither does perspective. You are calling someone the most ____ ever, and you have never watched a full game. Wilt was a great player, no question about it, but basing everything in the world off of his mere stats when the rules were not the same as they were shortly after him, is absurd without witnessing those acts.

Okay. That makes enough sense to me. If that's the case though, I can't really have an opinion on anything not recent in the NBA. I haven't watched much for a terribly long time, so I do my best with what I've got/seen/know. Contributing 50 points to your team every game speaks for itself IMO. From what I have seen and know, nobody else has done anything close to that. I hope to see more basketball though in the future.

Question for you: who do you think is the most dominant ever and why?

 

[JB]

Bill Russell. 11 titles in 13 years and would have won the 12th minus injury. He did everything his team wanted and needed and stopped the "unstoppable force". He was the best in the world for a long time and due to his rocky relationship with the media in the 60s and 70s, he never got his due, but has in the last 10 years, especially when someone like Shaq called him the best that ever played defense on the air.

 

[Damaikis]

Bill Russell. 11 titles in 13 years and would have won the 12th minus injury. He did everything his team wanted and needed and stopped the "unstoppable force". He was the best in the world for a long time and due to his rocky relationship with the media in the 60s and 70s, he never got his due, but has in the last 10 years, especially when someone like Shaq called him the best that ever played defense on the air.

He was good in all areas of the game from what I've seen/heard. A really impressive player. Part of your reason was the NBA Championships, so I'm assuming that means Sam Jones is high on your list as well?

 

[pjcedog]

Numbers dont lie, but neither does perspective. You are calling someone the most ____ ever, and you have never watched a full game. Wilt was a great player, no question about it, but basing everything in the world off of his mere stats when the rules were not the same as they were shortly after him, is absurd without witnessing those acts.

Wilt was an incredibly selfish player, he would abandon team defense in a heartbeat if he thought the center opposite him was going to score more than he was, he cared more about his stats than anything else. This is one reason Wilt won so few titles, he was not a team player by any means.

 

[JB]

He was good in all areas of the game from what I've seen/heard. A really impressive player. Part of your reason was the NBA Championships, so I'm assuming that means Sam Jones is high on your list as well?

Absolutely rings matter, but that is not the only story as I pointed out in my post with my reasons for choosing him.

 

[Damaikis]

Absolutely rings matter, but that is not the only story as I pointed out in my post with my reasons for choosing him.

Yes I know, I was just wondering how much stock you put in winning.

I was really curious when JB talked of Russel stopping Wilt, so I looked it up. This is what I found:

Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Russell won 88, Wilt won 74. Wilt averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds vs. Russell. Russell averaged 14.5 and 23.7 vs. Wilt.

Wilt's high game vs. Russell was 62, and he had six other 50 point games againts Russell . Russell's high game against Wilt was 37, and he had only two other 30 points games.

Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell, and he had six other 40 rebound games vs. Bill.
Russell also had a 40 rebound night against Wilt.

Wilt's teams lost all 4 seventh games against Russell... (Russell was 10-0 in game 7s druing his career).

The total margin of defeat in those four 7th games was nine points.

Russel sure as hell slowed him down, but stopped him is a bit of an exaduration. I haven't watched any of those games obviously, but looking at the win column, I know it couldn't have been too dominating. Russell won more times than Wilt, but it isn't a dominating differential. Plus, Russell played with 2 other HOF'ers and I don't believe Wilt played with any for the majority of his career (not entirely sure though).

 

[JB]

Yes I know, I was just wondering how much stock you put in winning.

I was really curious when JB talked of Russel stopping Wilt, so I looked it up. This is what I found:



Russel sure as hell slowed him down, but stopped him is a bit of an exaduration. I haven't watched any of those games obviously, but looking at the win column, I know it couldn't have been too dominating. Russell won more times than Wilt, but it isn't a dominating differential. Plus, Russell played with 2 other HOF'ers and I don't believe Wilt played with any for the majority of his career (not entirely sure though).

He averaged almost half as much as the 50 points you were spouting about a little bit ago.
I urge you before you want to compare, to watch any of those Wilt games. He was a guy that never played defense for his team, a completely selfish player that never passed the ball. With the rules in place the way they were, Russell absolutely owned Wilt. Once again, you are only looking at box scores. There is so much more to NBA games than just a box score.