Slow Play on Tour

[JB]

I’ve always stood on the idea that slow play doesn’t occur because of tour players.

I could not disagree with this more. Pre shot routines, walking around the putts from every angle, all of those things came from emulation of tour players.

The rules are in place and because some of the biggest names in golf got/get away with it for so long there is nothing that could be done. Someone wrote on Twitter that the miracle chip in by Tiger Woods at the Masters back in 05, would have been a penalty based on time. Day, Spieth, Holmes, etc etc. Tiger has at least gotten faster as he has gotten older.

And then switch to the lpga where the time spent on greens by a segment of players is bordering on insane, and it’s easy to understand why 5.5 hour rounds are accepted.

There is no reason that a player outside of a rules question, needs more than 30 seconds to pull the trigger.

 

[alexped2393]

The tour does set the precedent for slow amateur players 100% as we want to emulate them. A short, well controlled pre-shot routine is all that is needed, not what Holmes was doing yesterday.
I find the bigger problem to be not checking lines, reads, distances etc. until after someone else has hit their shot. This drags it out massively. When me and my friends play there is about 20-30 seconds max between people hitting shots as we will all know what we are hitting well before it is our turn to hit.

I don't like to see players rush around, feel rushed (I hate rushing) or feel like they have to power walk between shots as that just isn't the point of golf. But there should be a degree of common sense and courtesy to those around you with how fast you play once it is your turn to hit. Once it is your turn to hit, you should not be trying to get a read, you should be getting over that ball and doing all that wiggle waggle, shuffle tuffle stuff then.

Bit of a long one, sorry

 

[mpeterson]

Are the players complaining? If not I have zero skin in the game. I watch golf whether they play slow or fast. And I most certainly don’t complaining about it.

Adam Scott said this week that he’d be willing to take a penalty for someone else’s slow play if they needed to start penalizing to get guys to speed up so it does seem like there’s some frustration on tour.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ad...-tours-slow-play-problem-ill-take-the-penalty

 

[Jman]

It was brutal to watch, and I’m a JB Holmes fan.

That said, if it was a Rory, JS, Phil or other ‘bigger’ name, social wouldn’t have been throwing the fit it was. The slow play double standard is real.

 

[alexped2393]

It was brutal to watch, and I’m a JB Holmes fan.

That said, if it was a Rory, JS, Phil or other ‘bigger’ name, social wouldn’t have been throwing the fit it was. The slow play double standard is real.

I think it was more how obvious it was how long JB was taking that was the issue, I mean plum bobbing (whatever its called) for that short a putt is nothing short of ridiculous

 

[Tadashi70]

I could not disagree with this more. Pre shot routines, walking around the putts from every angle, all of those things came from emulation of tour players.

The rules are in place and because some of the biggest names in golf got/get away with it for so long there is nothing that could be done. Someone wrote on Twitter that the miracle chip in by Tiger Woods at the Masters back in 05, would have been a penalty based on time. Day, Spieth, Holmes, etc etc. Tiger has at least gotten faster as he has gotten older.

And then switch to the lpga where the time spent on greens by a segment of players is bordering on insane, and it’s easy to understand why 5.5 hour rounds are accepted.

There is no reason that a player outside of a rules question, needs more than 30 seconds to pull the trigger.

WE have had some good conversations about this and while I agree with you on your opening statement to an extent. I feel that slow play at the local level is due to poor play, to much running of the mouth and not being ready to play.

We played in three groups over the weekend. The lead group (mine) and second group played in just under 4 hours with half of the guys walking. The last group made it 15 tee box as we were hitting our second shots into 18. The last group were running their yaps, are all high cappers and never are in place when it is time to play.

 

[Jman]

I think it was more how obvious it was how long JB was taking that was the issue, I mean plum bobbing (whatever its called) for that short a putt is nothing short of ridiculous

We have seen it for years though. Lower tier players get destroyed for it and people cry for penalties, but if it’s a ‘name’? No way in hell theyre hitting a TW or Phil for slow play. No way in hell.

The double standard is real, and what sucks about that is slow is slow regardless of who. Why have a rule if it’s literally never enforced?

 

[DataDude]

Yes, but there are rules on how much time they can take. Why is this one OK to ignore? It puts the guys who are cognizant of pace/the rules at a disadvantage.

I guess it's hard to come and dock them when they are waiting on the next group to play at every tee box. What are you going to say? Hurry up, we want you to wait longer on the tee box instead of playing your best golf.

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[Jman]

I guess it's hard to come and duck them when they are waiting on the next group to play at every tee box. What are you going to say? Hurry up, we want you to wait longer on the tee box instead of playing your best golf.

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The group in front thing is a cop out when you can watch them on TV as their routine has started, and time it, because at that point the group in front is obviously clear.

 

[Tadashi70]

Adam Scott said this week that he’d be willing to take a penalty for someone else’s slow play if they needed to start penalizing to get guys to speed up so it does seem like there’s some frustration on tour.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ad...-tours-slow-play-problem-ill-take-the-penalty

If there is frustration on tour, then the players association should address it. They should talk to the slow players and tell them to get the lead out. They should petition the tour to start enforcing the slow play rule. If they do not communicate and levy some punishment it will never get better.

We, as a forum have this debate several times a year. And the same slow plays every year. I liken our conversations on the forum to guys like Adam that are tired of it and talk about taking fines but really never push the issue.

Caddies pushed the issue about wearing shorts and won that battle, we are talking caddies. What do you think would happen if the players took a stand against slow play. If the average Joe sees it and had issue with it and would get changed if given a chance. Why can't those (players) that really control everything, take stand. What if they refused to play in events until it was fixed. The top players can afford not to play and with them not on TV sponsors would be pissed. It might force the issue.

 

[CobraX51]

Are the players complaining? If not I have zero skin in the game. I watch golf whether they play slow or fast. And I most certainly don’t complaining about it.

Are players complaining about slow play? Yes.

Specifically to JB Holmes? I’d say so...

So he acknowledges “we” speaking on behalf of some players that JB is known to be slow.

He also says the conditions made everyone slow but how far was the group just in front of them?


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[mpeterson]

If there is frustration on tour, then the players association should address it. They should talk to the slow players and tell them to get the lead out. They should petition the tour to start enforcing the slow play rule. If they do not communicate and levy some punishment it will never get better.

We, as a forum have this debate several times a year. And the same slow plays every year. I liken our conversations on the forum to guys like Adam that are tired of it and talk about taking fines but really never push the issue.

Caddies pushed the issue about wearing shorts and won that battle, we are talking caddies. What do you think would happen if the players took a stand against slow play. If the average Joe sees it and had issue with it and would get changed if given a chance. Why can't those (players) that really control everything, take stand. What if they refused to play in events until it was fixed. The top players can afford not to play and with them not on TV sponsors would be pissed. It might force the issue.

That is a really good point - Scott said nothing would change until TV and sponsors say “no more money” and the players definitely have sway there.

I still think the tour should enforce the rule (and do it evenly no matter who the player is) but I don’t think they will unless someone forces their hand.

 

[mpeterson]

I guess it's hard to come and dock them when they are waiting on the next group to play at every tee box. What are you going to say? Hurry up, we want you to wait longer on the tee box instead of playing your best golf.

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I think the point made elsewhere in this thread is a good one - it was notable in this tournament just because it was obvious how slow Holmes was playing- not starting his routine, including getting a line for putts and whatnot until it was his turn, then stalking the putt from 10 angles. He is for sure not the only slow guy out there and probably not even the slowest. The game generally needs to speed up, so hopefully the groups in front would move faster as well if the rules were enforced.

 

[JB]

WE have had some good conversations about this and while I agree with you on your opening statement to an extent. I feel that slow play at the local level is due to poor play, to much running of the mouth and not being ready to play.

We played in three groups over the weekend. The lead group (mine) and second group played in just under 4 hours with half of the guys walking. The last group made it 15 tee box as we were hitting our second shots into 18. The last group were running their yaps, are all high cappers and never are in place when it is time to play.

Yes, because its a social game, but the truth is, there is time for all of that. Its when you combine that with the 30 second preshot routine, 7 minutes around the green (missed greens and putting), etc. A good example of the trickle down effect is the bunker. On the tour they analyze the shot, then execute and the next 40 seconds you are marking your ball and either putting or getting it out of the way. On a local course, you have to add in raking, so add another 30 seconds plus for that. And we all know that if the bunker shot ends close to the hole, most groups dont mark it for them, they wait for it to be raked, the player to walk over, mark the ball and then start their own routine.

Each time adding another 1-2 minutes per hole around the greens, means another 20-30 minutes per round. That is what takes us from 4 hours to 4.5 and now even longer, which is crazy to think about.

 

[alexped2393]

We have seen it for years though. Lower tier players get destroyed for it and people cry for penalties, but if it’s a ‘name’? No way in hell theyre hitting a TW or Phil for slow play. No way in hell.

The double standard is real, and what sucks about that is slow is slow regardless of who. Why have a rule if it’s literally never enforced?

Totally get the double standard thing, but (I hate saying but) they don't make it as obvious as JB did over the weekend. Once over the ball he was rocking and rolling but the pre-shot stuff did take a lot longer than usual

 

[Jman]

Totally get the double standard thing, but (I hate saying but) they don't make it as obvious as JB did over the weekend. Once over the ball he was rocking and rolling but the pre-shot stuff did take a lot longer than usual

Oh I’d argue Jordan is maybe the worst out there about it and one of the most obvious.

 

[Sox_Fan]

Oh I’d argue Jordan is maybe the worst out there about it and one of the most obvious.

I agree. Watching him is painful. And he never shuts his mouth either which I'm sure contributes to his snails pace.

 

[mpeterson]

Yes, because its a social game, but the truth is, there is time for all of that. Its when you combine that with the 30 second preshot routine, 7 minutes around the green (missed greens and putting), etc. A good example of the trickle down effect is the bunker. On the tour they analyze the shot, then execute and the next 40 seconds you are marking your ball and either putting or getting it out of the way. On a local course, you have to add in raking, so add another 30 seconds plus for that. And we all know that if the bunker shot ends close to the hole, most groups dont mark it for them, they wait for it to be raked, the player to walk over, mark the ball and then start their own routine.

Each time adding another 1-2 minutes per hole around the greens, means another 20-30 minutes per round. That is what takes us from 4 hours to 4.5 and now even longer, which is crazy to think about.

I actually had someone yell at me for marking their ball after they hit out of a trap once. I don't know if he felt he was being rushed or something, not sure.

 

[DataDude]

The group in front thing is a cop out when you can watch them on TV as their routine has started, and time it, because at that point the group in front is obviously clear.

Well it definitely contributes to one of my gripes. I want to see more players hit shots. If they go to someone like JB or Spieth and they think they're ready to hit, but in fact they are just starting their routine it definitely takes a lot of time and kills maybe getting to see 2 other golfers hit a shot LOL! So it would be better for me if they got it together a bit.

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[alexped2393]

Oh I’d argue Jordan is maybe the worst out there about it and one of the most obvious.

I agree with Spieth being slow, laboriously slow, especially in the open last year with that driving range shot

 

[Golf Ghost]

I was glad I recorded the final 9 holes and was able to fast forward. JB was painful of the greens. I don't care if they kept up to the group in front. There's no need for a tour player to be taking well over a min between starting their routine and hitting a ball.

Until a penalty is applied to someone in a high position and it costs them significant money, it's going to continue to happen.

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[kevin81002]

Put it this way, Dan. When I was there on Friday, JB Holmes' group was almost 2 holes behind the group ahead of them when they finished the 1st round. I watched them hit their approach shot on 3. JB was left side fairway and the other guys were on the right side rough and fairway. Holmes was 2nd to hit and didn't even start looking at his shot until the guy in the rough had already played. It took him longer to hit his ball than the other two combined. Multiply that by 18 holes and it's easy to see how they can get so far behind. It was painful to watch. Reason I know how far behind they were was I was waiting behind the 9th green to congratulate him for his ace on 7. I was there a LONG time waiting. I can only imagine how difficult it was for Adam Scott, someone who's very vocal about slow play to be paired with him for the final 2 rounds.

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[2BFAST]

Holmes was last to hit and didn't even start looking at his shot until the other two had already played.

This....right here....it what I don't get. I always question this....you watch two other guys go then the camera goes on the third guy and then you see them start talking about the shot. I always ask myself why didn't you get this figured out while the other two were playing theirs? It is because they don't want to talk while the other is playing? Or wanting to watch the other hit to judge conditions?

And don't get me wrong here, I don't have an axe to grind. But when your on the other side of the fairway or whatever there isn't any reason you cant get your shot figured out while others are playing their shots. And when the ball of the guy before you goes airborn you should be doing your pre-shot routine 90% of the time.

 

[kevin81002]

This....right here....it what I don't get. I always question this....you watch two other guys go then the camera goes on the third guy and then you see them start talking about the shot. I always ask myself why didn't you get this figured out while the other two were playing theirs? It is because they don't want to talk while the other is playing? Or wanting to watch the other hit to judge conditions?

And don't get me wrong here, I don't have an axe to grind. But when your on the other side of the fairway or whatever there isn't any reason you cant get your shot figured out while others are playing their shots. And when the ball of the guy before you goes airborn you should be doing your pre-shot routine 90% of the time.

Had to correct my post. He was second to play on that shot. Still the same thing though. He waited til the first guy had played and cleared out before even starting to figure out what he was doing. The second last guy had his club in hand and was ready to go while JB was going through his routine. They were already a full hole behind by this point with 6 holes left to play. The guy is sloooow. The fortunate part is they were the last pairing in the rotation, so they weren't holding up anyone else.

 

[2BFAST]

Had to correct my post. He was second to play on that shot. Still the same thing though. He waited til the first guy had played and cleared out before even starting to figure out what he was doing. They were already a full hole behind by this point with 6 holes left to play. The guy is sloooow.

But he isn't the only one I see do this. Im like why are you just now starting to talk about the shot. Even if you don't have it fully figured out when the first guys clears...at least you have the ball rolling. Again, im cool with looking at all angles and what not with them....but I don't under stand why they stand there punching their clowns while others hit then start talking about it.

I dunno, I know im missing something here cause im not there or have played on tour but from what I see I don't understand it