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Ben Hogan Golf - Can they survive?

SuperStroke
c.a.eleric said:
how do you buy something you don't know exists?


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I worded my answer wrong. Advertisement should have been TV ads. There are plenty of other ways to advertise that don't cost nearly as much. The goal in my mind is not to become large but to become profitable after a few years add those TV spots but make sure you have a solid base before doing so.

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lightningbolt44 said:
I worded my answer wrong. Advertisement should have been TV ads. There are plenty of other ways to advertise that don't cost nearly as much. The goal in my mind is not to become large but to become profitable after a few years add those TV spots but make sure you have a solid base before doing so.

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i agree that the advertising costs are prohibitive in the sandbox i see these guys playing in. but then you are relying on your margin-per-set to cover all your direct costs, your general and administrative expenses, your investors' expected ROI, AND your r&d expenses because "innovate or die." if you don't push these and push them hard, i don't see how that's possible.

i want them to succeed because the more the merrier. but i just don't see how they can.
 
lightningbolt44 said:
I worded my answer wrong. Advertisement should have been TV ads. There are plenty of other ways to advertise that don't cost nearly as much. The goal in my mind is not to become large but to become profitable after a few years add those TV spots but make sure you have a solid base before doing so.

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I think clubs can exist without traditional advertising to an extent. The pyramid of influencers (described in many businesses) (I know Harry talks about the sphere in golf) is bigger in this sport than any other.

Lets use Mizuno as an example. Seen a TV commercial recently?
 
JB said:
I think clubs can exist without traditional advertising to an extent. The pyramid of influencers (described in many businesses) (I know Harry talks about the sphere in golf) is bigger in this sport than any other.

Lets use Mizuno as an example. Seen a TV commercial recently?
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Agreed which is why I think if the company knows who they are and sticks to a solid plan they will be fine. If not then I think they struggle.

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A very good question and one that I though about after listening to the episode. My answer will all depend on how they view themselves as a OEM. Do they believe to reach out to the average market or a higher end club line? With the release of the PTx irons I believe they will reach a broader market, which could allow them to survive. I definitely think the will need to expand their club line with fairway woods.
 
lightningbolt44 said:
Agreed which is why I think if the company knows who they are and sticks to a solid plan they will be fine. If not then I think they struggle.

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Another really good example is putter companies.
 
JB said:
Another really good example is putter companies.
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Which literally some are one guy out of his garage (unfortunately for service). In the end the approach is all about how big a company wants to get and are they OK with what they are or do they try and make it something they are not (see scratch)

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JB said:
Another really good example is putter companies.
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i would think the investment in raw materials and r&d would be on a much smaller scale. and i actually wouldn't think the margins on a per-purchase basis are that dissimilar. it just seems like you need a lot more hands on deck to make a set of irons, hybrids, etc vs a putter. i obviously have nothing to back that up, just what seems logical.
 
c.a.eleric said:
i would think the investment in raw materials and r&d would be on a much smaller scale. and i actually wouldn't think the margins on a per-purchase basis are that dissimilar. it just seems like you need a lot more hands on deck to make a set of irons, hybrids, etc vs a putter. i obviously have nothing to back that up, just what seems logical.
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But you are selling 8 at a time so if you look at it that way, its not that far off. While margins might not be exactly the same, its not 8 to 1 in terms of R/D vs Margin vs Cost. Its easier for sure, but there is also less competition.

Then add the wedges and hybrids, which are closer in margins and many times bought in sets.
 
My thoughts are if they stay streamlined and avoid becoming bloated, staying true to the Hogan lineage I think they can do fine. I'm not sure they can grow past or just sustain in a niche market though, which may be why Hogan went bye bye to begin with. I see even the hard core players irons type,,,, slipping to the dark side of more playable clubs all the time.

If the owner is keeping the company as a true passion for the game, great they will do well. If it becomes all about profit, see yah later.
 
I don't see them making it long term. The name is just not as relevant as it once was, plus the millennials are buying the brands with the young pro's and lots of flash.

I wish them well, but it will be an up hill battle.
 
I really hope that they do. With what I have read here on THP, they seem to produce a quality product. I think that the release of the PTx series will help broaden the appeal, though does seem somewhat contradictory to the Ft Worth marketing.

I know the main discussion has been on irons, but I think that where they will really generate "buzz" will be with the VKTR hybrids. Adams did quite well as a hybrid maker that also made irons. If they develop a strong hybrid and possibly fairway wood market share then I think they will do fine unless they overreach.

However, the "general golf consumer" (none THPer) perception of Ben Hogan Golf is the same/similar as Wilson/Staff. Great equipment back in the day. However, they are just a clothing line in Walmart (Ben Hogan) or box sets (W/S). Unless/until both companies can shake those perceptions neither company will see their potential.

Btw: While lurking on their site today I noticed the Ft. Worth hi irons for the first time.
 
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I am hoping they make it long term I have played Hogan irons for many years until I just couldn't get my hands on decent sets anymore. Hogan has made some of the finest irons I have ever played they have never really tried to compete with a big market so I think they can survive if they keep to there market
 
HoosierGolfer said:
I don't see them making it long term. The name is just not as relevant as it once was, plus the millennials are buying the brands with the young pro's and lots of flash.

I wish them well, but it will be an up hill battle.
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I love the looks of their new irons but Hoosier is dead on in my opinion! But I hope I'm wrong!
 
I'm not really sure at this point. It seems the next 12-18 months are going to be critical. I feel like if they stay true to themselves,and the PTX line is a hit with consumers then it's a good start. But what follows that is very important. The Hogan name is well known with some of the seasoned golfing public. But the new wave it's an a bit uunknown. Going up against the big names....hard hill to climb. Breaking even would be a success on this business right now.
 
This has been a really good conversation.
 
JB said:
This has been a really good conversation.
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Have you heard anything at all (that you can share) about them trying to build any tour presence?
 
#Cookie said:
Have you heard anything at all (that you can share) about them trying to build any tour presence?
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You know, I have not even asked. Im not sure why I didn't ask, but I am not sure thats the model with the cost it takes to bring someone in on irons nowadays.
 
JB said:
You know, I have not even asked. Im not sure why I didn't ask, but I am not sure thats the model with the cost it takes to bring someone in on irons nowadays.
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Makes sense. I'm glad to see these getting into 400 pro shops as well as PGA Superstore and some Edwin Watts so that consumers should start to see them more.
 
Wow, i just went over to the website to look around. Good looking clubs, and the lofting is interesting. Fit to your game for sure. The hybrids looked good too. There's something that just invokes good feelings about golf clubs of yesterday and i like it. I hope they do well.
 
Maybe they can use the Bridgestone model where they can send you clubs to demo, although that might cost more than they can afford at this point. It would sure get their clubs into a lot more hands. Everyone that sees the PTX irons love the look and will be looking for a place they can demo it!
 
Mizunofan99 said:
Maybe they can use the Bridgestone model where they can send you clubs to demo, although that might cost more than they can afford at this point. It would sure get their clubs into a lot more hands. Everyone that sees the PTX irons love the look and will be looking for a place they can demo it!
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I believe they do that now.
 
It took years for a small maker like Edel to get into the black. Hogan may have deep pockets, but how long do those pockets stick around?

I think they ought to go the Miura/Edel, etc. route or may go that way eventually if the clubs do not take off. Parsons is small but they have big money so PXG does not apply here. Perhaps Hogan will change strategy to custom clubmakers if projections are not met.
 
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#Cookie said:
Makes sense. I'm glad to see these getting into 400 pro shops as well as PGA Superstore and some Edwin Watts so that consumers should start to see them more.
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Yeah get's them out into the market for people to try!
 
Will they survive? I don't know. This is one tough business.

Can they survive? They start with an iconic brand name and quality products. That's a pretty massive leg up, something most companies would kill for.
 
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