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Pace of Play

Damaikis said:
I don't get what the big deal is. It's not like we were holding anybody up.



Our matches usually started at 1-2 in the afternoon.
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No groups went out after yours?
 
I'm starting to think that I'm lucky during golf season up here. We don't have the kinds of crowds that some of you deal with. The courses I play don't have a starter or marshalls and I've never seen anyone get in an altercation over slow play. If a group is faster, they get let through. I've never seen a course so crowded that one group was causing a big backup. There are times when it's busier that we don't play as fast as we'd like to and have to wait sometimes, but we try to respect the rights of others and slow down a little. Around here a round of golf takes as long as it takes. Sometimes you get done fast and other times you don't. When I say I'm going golfing and my family asks what time I'll be home, I simply say, "When I'm finished."
 
I guess I am kind of on the fence on the whole pace of play issue. I am not a slow player at all (at least I don't think I am and have never been told that I play slow), but I am not the fastest either. I guess what it comes down for me is the reason the play is slow. If I am behind someone that just takes a long time to hit the ball on every shot that bothers me. If I am behind someone that sprays the ball or tops / duffs the occasional shot (as I am apt to do), but then gets to the ball and reloads then swings in a reasonable amount of time then that kind of slow play doesn't bother me much. High handicappers like myself are gonna take bit longer to play than lower handicappers. More shots, more time taken. Pretty simplistic view I know and there are more things that cause slow play than what I mentioned. I am out there to enjoy my time playing a game I love with people that have the same love for the game. As long as I am having a good time, the players with me are having a good time and not holding up anyone behind me then I don't care how long it takes to play around.
 
Damaikis said:
So if someone likes playing but doesn't want to take lessons and isn't good they shouldn't play golf? My dad isn't good at golf, and he doesn't want to take lessons because he only plays a couple times a year. He hits the ball really short and loses his fair share of balls. He definitely takes a good bit of time to play because of it. He shouldn't be allowed to come out then? I completely disagree.
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Of course you disagree....but the simple fact is that if you can't play within the time allowed for 18 holes during the course of normal play, I don't think you should play during peak hours. We hold up the entire course. I think it very selfish of people to do so.

If you play bad and can keep up then have at it. But if you can't play later in the day.
 
Damaikis said:
So if someone likes playing but doesn't want to take lessons and isn't good they shouldn't play golf? My dad isn't good at golf, and he doesn't want to take lessons because he only plays a couple times a year. He hits the ball really short and loses his fair share of balls. He definitely takes a good bit of time to play because of it. He shouldn't be allowed to come out then? I completely disagree.
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Hawk said:
Sure he should be able to play, but if he can't keep up with stated pace of play he needs to find a different course or speed up. That might mean picking up, but so be it. We've all been there. Hell, I was there a week and a half ago.
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I'll agree things like possibly picking up (as i've mentioned too) as well as many other factors can be done in order for a poor ability golfer to help keep respectable pace. But when we say "stated pace" I dont know exactly where that comes from and if its necessarily correct. I am sure that the stated time (whatever it is) was dictated by those who are better players and within what they detrmined is enough extra time allowed for the others to play. It sort of being placed from a very bias point of view. Remember that most the millions of golfers at most muni's especially when including those who only play few rounds a year are not average bogey golfers. Are not breaking 100 (at least legitimately).

I'm not really in disagreement but i just dont know sometimes. With what i said above one can argue that why should it be a minroity that gets to dictate what the majority should be doing? This is where the feeling of entitlement and ritgeousness comes in. If a course states 4:10 to finish. Who made that determination and from what bias view? Perhaps there are a majority of players on the course right now that feel 4:10 is too fast and think 4:30 is more suiting. But of course its only the entitled ones who complain and then try to dictate. I'm not trying to be mean here at all but what makes one way so correct and the other so wrong? Especially if one is new or not good. Should they be any less entitled to the extra 20 minutes or even a little more? i just dont know sometimes.
 
Ary and Jank1434 and I played as a 3some at a nice course in Houston on Saturday....the 3 some in front of us held us up several times with guys plumb bobbing 3 foot putts and taking 6 and 7 practice swings and when we made the turn they had a guy join them and turn it into a 4some...so we waiting on just about every shot on the back 9...and still played in less than 4:30 hours.
 
rollin said:
I'll agree things like possibly picking up (as i've mentioned too) as well as many other factors can be done in order for a poor ability golfer to help keep respectable pace. But when we say "stated pace" I dont know exactly where that comes from and if its necessarily correct. I am sure that the stated time (whatever it is) was dictated by those who are better players and within what they detrmined is enough extra time allowed for the others to play. It sort of being placed from a very bias point of view. Remember that most the millions of golfers at most muni's especially when including those who only play few rounds a year are not average bogey golfers. Are not breaking 100 (at least legitimately).

I'm not really in disagreement but i just dont know sometimes. With what i said above one can argue that why should it be a minroity that gets to dictate what the majority should be doing? This is where the feeling of entitlement and ritgeousness comes in. If a course states 4:10 to finish. Who made that determination and from what bias view? Perhaps there are a majority of players on the course right now that feel 4:10 is too fast and think 4:30 is more suiting. But of course its only the entitled ones who complain and then try to dictate. I'm not trying to be mean here at all but what makes one way so correct and the other so wrong? Especially if one is new or not good. Should they be any less entitled to the extra 20 minutes or even a little more? i just dont know sometimes.
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Most courses here have a pace of play guideline. Often displayed on the scorecard.
 
blugold said:
I do think that it is up to the course to determine a reasonable pace of play and then to enforce it. The reasonable pace will most likely vary from course to course and that's fine.

But for me, if anybody writes their daily schedule in stone around a quick 18 holes, is taking a very big gamble. I do everything I can to not let slow play bother me. I do think that is a skill that needs to be learned more than shot shaping.
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This. Ready golf as I define it (that is being ready to HIT the ball when its your turn, not just starting to get ready) doesn't mandate a specific time for a round. It would be stupid to think that all courses can be played at the same pace. If you are doing all that you can do to be ready to hit when the way is clear, then you should have no problem keeping up with the pace of the field. If you aren't doing this, and your group tends to have trouble keeping up, then you (and your companions) may need to amend some bad habits. You don't have to rush to play at a good pace - you just have to be ready to play your shot without delay when you are up.
 
rollin said:
I'll agree things like possibly picking up (as i've mentioned too) as well as many other factors can be done in order for a poor ability golfer to help keep respectable pace. But when we say "stated pace" I dont know exactly where that comes from and if its necessarily correct. I am sure that the stated time (whatever it is) was dictated by those who are better players and within what they detrmined is enough extra time allowed for the others to play. It sort of being placed from a very bias point of view. Remember that most the millions of golfers at most muni's especially when including those who only play few rounds a year are not average bogey golfers. Are not breaking 100 (at least legitimately).

I'm not really in disagreement but i just dont know sometimes. With what i said above one can argue that why should it be a minroity that gets to dictate what the majority should be doing? This is where the feeling of entitlement and ritgeousness comes in. If a course states 4:10 to finish. Who made that determination and from what bias view? Perhaps there are a majority of players on the course right now that feel 4:10 is too fast and think 4:30 is more suiting. But of course its only the entitled ones who complain and then try to dictate. I'm not trying to be mean here at all but what makes one way so correct and the other so wrong? Especially if one is new or not good. Should they be any less entitled to the extra 20 minutes or even a little more? i just dont know sometimes.
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Again, the pace of play is rarely determined by skill. There was a JV golfer in the area who shot a 207 over 18 holes at my home course. (True story). He finished that round in 4:30. It's the knuckleheads who spray the ball and don't watch it land and then wander around the rough asking where his ball landed that slow down a round.
 
Fourputt said:
This. Ready golf as I define it (that is being ready to HIT the ball when its your turn, not just starting to get ready) doesn't mandate a specific time for a round. It would be stupid to think that all courses can be played at the same pace. If you are doing all that you can do to be ready to hit when the way is clear, then you should have no problem keeping up with the pace of the field. If you aren't doing this, and your group tends to have trouble keeping up, then you (and your companions) may need to amend some bad habits. You don't have to rush to play at a good pace - you just have to be ready to play your shot without delay when you are up.
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That's it in a nutshell. It all comes down to etiquette and respecting others. If the course isn't crowded and you're willing to let people through, there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a 6 hour round if that's what you want to do. But too many people feel that they are entitled to that 6 hour round no matter what, and others feel they are entitled to a 3 hour round no matter what. It's no different than driving on the freeway. There's a minimum speed and a maximum speed posted. Yes, you can legally drive the minimum speed if you want, but the courteous thing is to try and match your speed as closely to the flow of traffic as possible. But even then you have plenty of people flying by you just so they can get the store 10 seconds before you.
 
I agree with a lot of what is being said here. If you are not being pushed by a group behind you, which as you described the group behind you never waited on you, then you played at an acceptable pace in my opinion. I personally don't think that 4:10 is a slow round, I'd put it on the higher side of normal, if that makes any sense. One thing to realize/understand is that not everybody plays at one single pace. There are going to be golfers that get done in 2hrs 45 minutes and others that take 4 hours. Neither group is right or wrong in that situation. However if the group that is taking 4 hours to play is ahead of the 2hrs 45 minute group, they should let them play through. That group will only be waiting a max of 5 minutes before continuing on their round.

One thing I wanted to mention again is that there is a difference between playing fast golf and rushing through the round. As described by numerous posters, being ready to hit when it's your turn is one of the most important things to get in a habit of doing. There is a time and place for talking with your buddies, and that time is NOT when it's your turn to hit. There is plenty of time to converse as you are walking/riding to your ball and in between players getting ready to hit.
 
Now I had the opposite experience this weekend. I was in a twosome early in the morning and we completed our round walking in just over 4 hours. We were actually moving along really well until we came up to a foursome and had to wait behind them on just about every shot. Now the wait wasn't long, so I don't think either one of us felt the need to try and push through. A marshal was periodically checking in, and never said anything to us about speeding up play. The threesome behind us on the other hand, apparently wanted to play faster and we had several balls land relatively close to us or roll up to us. I was very close to saying something to them, partly because it was clear we had another group in front of us that was slightly slower and we were not the reason for the hold up. I decided to bite my tongue and on the 16th hole they had some lost ball issues (karma) which helped us gain some distance.

I think - like a lot of people have said on here - that there needs to be better ettiquette on both sides of the fence. Slower players who are enjoying their time out with friends or a gorgeous afternoon, need to recognize that there are faster players and just let them through. I have had many groups let me play through and I am always grateful. But there are groups that seem to take it personally and won't let anyone through - that is where the ettiquette needs to improve. Faster players on the other hand need to recognize there are slower players and there will be rounds that you just aren't getting your round down in under 3 hours like you wanted. I also think that if you want to play fast, get up early on the weekends.
 
playing through is not always possible and not always going to fix anything. It can even at times cause slower play. Of course it always works for those who play through but not evryone else.

It only realy works when a course is not full. If any group wiishes to play through but there is foursome after foursome then how is this solving anything? Even if one group falls a hole behind and allows another to play through. Now that slower group has to wait for them to hit and then get to thier balls and hit again and thats asssuming the ones playing through hit well when they play through. So what you now ened up with is the next group that was behind them simply looking at the slower group and if they let them play through it can just kep going.

Even if a twosome wants to play through on a corwded course. Where are they going? They are going to play through one foursome after another. The only ones who get speed are the twosome while everyone else just gets delayed more. But of course everyone is only concerned with themselves. I'm not saying it never works and wouldnt work when a course has room on it but when a course is full with mostly foursome after foursome it is not always the answer and probably further adding the problem for the rest.
 
8 minute or less tee time gaps are commonplace on California muni courses, there are even some courses in L.A. that have 6 min tee times. Unless all 4 players hit perfect drives right on top of the 125 yd mark run to their ball and stripe it to within 8 feet of the pin, they are going to be behind almost instantly.

I know with the monthly tourney group I play with in Sacramento, every time we have 8 min gaps we backup, the one time we got an 12 min gap it was wide open all day. It's all about maximizing course revenue I understand but a lot of the slow play probs aren't just the players fault.
 
KeyserSoze said:
8 minute or less tee time gaps are commonplace on California muni courses, there are even some courses in L.A. that have 6 min tee times. Unless all 4 players hit perfect drives right on top of the 125 yd mark run to their ball and stripe it to within 8 feet of the pin, they are going to be behind almost instantly.

I know with the monthly tourney group I play with in Sacramento, every time we have 8 min gaps we backup, the one time we got an 12 min gap it was wide open all day. It's all about maximizing course revenue I understand but a lot of the slow play probs aren't just the players fault.
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I agree 100%. Teetime intervals are a big problem and an automatic set up to fail pace issue. I posted about that in the past. I lived in two places and both areas always with full golf courses but one area always 4 to maybe 4n1/2 while the other always 5 to 6 hours . The only certain difference between the two places with same types of golfers was 7 minute tee time vs 10 minute tee times. Closel;y spaced tee times are a bad idea!! Your waiting from the very first tee-off. And most are already pissed.
 
KeyserSoze said:
8 minute or less tee time gaps are commonplace on California muni courses, there are even some courses in L.A. that have 6 min tee times. Unless all 4 players hit perfect drives right on top of the 125 yd mark run to their ball and stripe it to within 8 feet of the pin, they are going to be behind almost instantly.

I know with the monthly tourney group I play with in Sacramento, every time we have 8 min gaps we backup, the one time we got an 12 min gap it was wide open all day. It's all about maximizing course revenue I understand but a lot of the slow play probs aren't just the players fault.
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I think this is a huge part of the pace of play issues. If courses really want to do something about pace of play they need to crunch the numbers and adjust tee times on Saturdays and Sundays, having the same pace of play clock on Saturday afternoon as you do Tuesday morning is just setting them up to fail. Even the same pace of play Saturday morning vs Saturday afternoon is silly. But do they really care if they are booked solid every weekend? If they did you would see marshals and rangers out there actually showing people how to play faster when using a cart or if the course is cart path only showing people the nuances of speeding things up in that situation but I have never seen that happen.
 
Just surf THP while you wait. Problem solved.
 
I saw a great post somewhere a few weeks back about courses in hot areas maximizing things by getting together a group of 120-144 players for an 8 am tee time and shotgunning them. Play a loop and stay out of the hottest part of the day and then stagger tee times after they get done (12 or 1230). I think this is an interesting concept but may not work everywhere. Some of the courses would do 2 shotguns (8 am and 1 pm) and put alot of there business into those two time slots.
 
rollin said:
playing through is not always possible and not always going to fix anything. It can even at times cause slower play. Of course it always works for those who play through but not evryone else.

It only realy works when a course is not full. If any group wiishes to play through but there is foursome after foursome then how is this solving anything? Even if one group falls a hole behind and allows another to play through. Now that slower group has to wait for them to hit and then get to thier balls and hit again and thats asssuming the ones playing through hit well when they play through. So what you now ened up with is the next group that was behind them simply looking at the slower group and if they let them play through it can just kep going.

Even if a twosome wants to play through on a corwded course. Where are they going? They are going to play through one foursome after another. The only ones who get speed are the twosome while everyone else just gets delayed more. But of course everyone is only concerned with themselves. I'm not saying it never works and wouldnt work when a course has room on it but when a course is full with mostly foursome after foursome it is not always the answer and probably further adding the problem for the rest.
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Nobody suggested letting someone play through when they are waiting as well. But if the group is 1 or 2 holes behind the group in front of them and they have a faster group behind them, they should let them play through 100% of the time. It's obvious that it wouldn't slow them down if they are already 1-2 holes behind.
 
Mulligan9111 said:
Nobody suggested letting someone play through when they are waiting as well. But if the group is 1 or 2 holes behind the group in front of them and they have a faster group behind them, they should let them play through 100% of the time. It's obvious that it wouldn't slow them down if they are already 1-2 holes behind.
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people always mention playing through on just about every pace thread. There are times to do it where it can be affective but many times especialy on weekends when course are full it isn't always the answer. Just because one group may fall one hole behind, playing through on a packed course may not solve anything. If they are a bit slower and let another group through then the group behind them will also want to play through. The play through just cost them even more time so now here comes the next group and it becomes a catch22 because they want to go too. where would it end? Now if the group is dreadfully slow then they should be told and should conduct themselves to work harder at playing catch-up so as to close the gap. I know its not done a lot but You see I think it completely depends on the circumstances at the time as to weather or not a play through is warranted and/or actually beneficial to all or can hurt things. It can cause the slower group more delay and thus causng even further back-ups. I don't think one hole behind is disastrous. That's only about 12 to 14 minutes behind pace. If it gets much worse then something should be done but playing through may not solve the issue on a crowded course. Except of course for only those who are playing through.
 
Play ready golf. Keep up with the group in front of you. Remember the Golden Rule. No problems.
 
The course I now call home recently installed GPS tracking in the carts so the clubhouse knows where each group stands. They also reduced the number of tee times available each day and I think tee times are 10 min apart. The starter doesn't let you tee off #1 until the group in front is driving to the green.

Also, you will see a ranger (notice I didn't say "the" ranger...there are 3 I think) probably 6 or 7 times while playing. They don't say anything unless necessary and so far have always been friendly and are not a distraction. I like that people know they are around, it keeps everyone focused and keeps the goofing off to a minimum (the kind that generally leads to course damage).

They have made a big to do about a pace of play guarantee (4.5 hrs) on their website and Facebook page. So far, each round has been right at 4 hours for our foursome. Albeit that's a 7:57 tee time and there are typically only 2 or 3 groups of members that go before us. I am not sure how a mid morning or afternoon round would go and I don't exactly know what the "guarantee" entails (i.e. what do they do if your round takes longer due to another group...or even if your group is the issue) but their focus on pace of play seems to be working this summer.

Heck, afternoon players may hate the rangers and there my be fights everyday but its too hot around here in the afternoon so I get out there as early as they will let me.
 
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