I believe there is already something in the USGA handicap system. Tournament scores are weighted heavier.
Why do people lie about handicaps
UglySwing
New member
Again, sticking with the 'public shaming approach'...
Next to the winners name (I'm assuming it will be posted somewhere for all to see) should be his score, his handicap, and the odds of a 26 handicap shooting a 74.
All of these tournie so should keep those 3 stats next to the winners name for every tournament. It should just be a normal stat for every tournament with a handicap.
I would imagine if the result was posted looked something like this:
Joe Smith:
Score: 74 Handicap: 26 Score vs HC Probability: 1.7%
That would be humiliating.
I've never played in any tournaments, but I think that stat (the calculated probability of your score vs the handicap you entered with) should be a normal stat that is posted along side everyone's score.
bighitter13
New member
I play to a true 3 to 4. In tournaments I have played guys who say they are a 16 and somehow we both shoot 77. Now that is a 74 for me and and 61 for him. Even if I shoot a personal best I can't beat him. Sandbagging ruins many tourneys.
subvet
I never finish anyth
^^ this ^^
people forget it's a game. the sad part is, they do similar things in their personal lives and in business as well.
Spivey
Active member
Why do people lie about handicaps
Wrong thread
Wrong thread
GolferMahn
New member
I hate my handicap. It's 12-14, but any and all of that is down to putting/short game. Every now and then I'll have a round where my short game is good and I actually get some putts to fall in (my average make is probably 1', I lip out at least 6 times every round), so I can shoot close to par, and it looks like I've sandbagged. Last tournament I played in was like that, I made several over 20' and shot well under par as a result.
to feel better about their games. Maybe they are lieing about their score and just aren't educated enough on how to calculate them... Yeah that's it. No one lies about their handicap.
NewGlfr
New member
Why do people lie about anything? Because they have no self esteem and need to fabricate things to make themselves feel better.
Isn't Golf a sport of honesty and integrity foremost? Relying on oneself to play by the rules? That's what I'm teaching my kids about it, at least.
Isn't Golf a sport of honesty and integrity foremost? Relying on oneself to play by the rules? That's what I'm teaching my kids about it, at least.
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I never play any official competitive golf so looking from the outside - Whenever sandbagging come up in discussion, I very often mention that I think its pretty amazing how most people look at higher cap players as for being guilty of it but yet never really consider lower cap players also doing it and probably imo doing it a lot because they are good enough to get away with it and hide it real well. All it takes is for a low capper to intentionally mishit about 4, 5, or so strokes per round and very easily raise their cap from 6 to 10. Botch a putt here, a chip there, an approach here, a drive there through 18 holes and no one is the wiser at all.
One of the things that actually concerns me as a mid capper is that should I ever play in any of my county competitions and happen to have a stretch where I play my best golf honestly and then have to endure all the talk of me sandbagging when in fact its the last thing I would do. I have even asked about what would happen if I played and had my better rounds and the answer I get is - "well.....if you had one its ok......but if you had two it would surely raise eyebrows and we frown on that" And to me that's ridiculous because when I play well it often comes in chunks of rounds together. What the heck would I suppose to be doing if I had a better or best round and then played the second? I would have to worry if I played well again I'd be ladled. I mean I could shoot 84 and then a 98 and can shoot 2 98's in a row but I could also shoot 2 - 84's in a row.
I am running a cap the past 2 seasons for the first time ever in large part due to the fact that I thought perhaps I'd play something competitively in my county but all this nonsense is one of the reasons I havnt done it. A lot of people know my face and a number know my name and I always get "hello's" and waves from afar and known as a respectful and friendly guy by many and yet all it would take is for me to play in 2 round competition and just so happen to play to my better golf and all a sudden I would be that guy who sandbagged. I really don't even want any par of it.
Tedfroop
One eyed and left handed
Rules for these kinds of tournaments should use metrics to say if a 12 handicap shoots anything below a 76 its likely they are cheating and there are no prizes for you. The USGA needs a chart with metrics to say how many shots below your cap is a high probability of being more than good luck. Your handicap should represent your best golf so getting anywhere more than a few shots under your cap is suspicious at best.
Golf 'N Gator
Formally HoosierGolfer
Sandbagging is as old as the system. I'll only play in gross/net events now days and I've stopped playing league and skins for the most part because it has become so out of control. It was not as bad years ago. It is just more a sign of the times we live in.
Leagues and skins groups can beat the system by only using scores from each week over official handicaps, but most course's are too lazy to build and add a spreadsheet or another tracking system to stop this BS from happening.
Leagues and skins groups can beat the system by only using scores from each week over official handicaps, but most course's are too lazy to build and add a spreadsheet or another tracking system to stop this BS from happening.
azfarrier
Average Hack
The league I play in keeps their own league handicaps. Only rounds played with the league count towards that handicap. It keeps the sandbagging out of the picture. You'd have to lose a lot just to try and come back to win one.
Mystery Meat
Ben Hogan Fan
The last time I played in a handicap event they had a net and gross division. So maybe you will never have a shot at the handicap but can still win the other
flaMtneer
Member
I think this is a good solution.
I've played in tournaments where they played 2 or 3 flights (like <10 A flight, 10-20 B, 20+ C ) and the gross scores from the "B" flight were as good or better than A. There's not much you can do if the handicaps show as legit...other than note it and don't let them back in. I have played in tournaments where if you shot more than x better than your HC they bumped you up a flight.
I get most if not all of my satisfaction from playing the course and the idea of winning after cheating is just something I can't relate to...but we still see it all the time.
Our club only does 2 day official tourneys. First day flights the next day. To keep people from sand bagging the first round they have a random "shoot out number" 3 to 7. So if you shoot 4 strokes better the second day and they draw a 3 your out. The course is also set up to play 5 to 7 strokes harder with pins/distances. Seems to really cure the sand baggers.
darthweasel
Well-known member
early in the thread someone mentioned they thought a 26 shooting a 74 was impossible. Maybe...but it could be the "trending" handicap thing. When I initially generated a handicap this year it was something like a 34? This is the first year I have golfed "seriously" and kept a handicap. As a result, my potential lows at the end of the year are roughly 16 shots better than at the beginning of the year. As of today my handicap is a 23.5....but arguably I have the potential to be much, much better than that.
And, in fact, this last week on a 126 slope course my driver was off and I was slicing my short irons, I shot a 106. The next day on a 124 slope my driver was long and straight, my short irons and wedges were money and I shot an 87...and actually was disappointed with it as I felt I left about 10 shots on the table when i lost my rhythm between the par 5 that had FIVE groups on it simultaneously and being distracted by the betting banter the 2 guys I was matched up with were having, albeit thoroughly enjoying the round.
Point is, I genuinely felt like one day the 106 was perfectly reasonable for a golfer of my abilities. The next day I felt like an 87 was too high for my abilities. And due to the recent stature of the handicap, I legitimately feel that on courses sloped about 125 anywhere from a 75 to a 125 is well within reason for me.
Feeding into that, the guys I was matched up with in my last round were playing the tips. I was rushed getting there, got in zero putts, zero time on the range and had maybe 2 warmup swings before I teed off having just watched 2 of the 3 guys from the championship tees put balls dead center middle about 300 yards out. I should have been 2 tee boxes up but just went one, consider this my apology. Anyhow, 2 of the guys were just nails. Drive, iron, 1-2 putts. It felt like one or the other of them birdied every hole on the front while John and I sampled the areas left, right, short and long of the green. He looked like he had no business not only on the championship tees but even on the tees I was scuffling on. I was not planning to turn this round in for a handicap so did a couple things I rarely do...upon hitting balls ob instead of laying 3 off the tee I cheated...err, took mulligans...and was something like 12 over still after 9. Realistically I was probably 20 over, maybe worse. It was ugly.
Then on the back I was a legit 1 over after 6...3 pars, 2 bogeys, and a birdie on the toughest hole on the course...and he was 1 under. Both of us were strokes ahead of the scratch golfers. Within the same 18 holes there was a complete flip flop.
When I see someone play wildly different than their handicap, my first thought is seldom they are sand-bagging or running a vanity cap. My thought is, "They are having one of THOSE sets of holes". Honestly for most of the guys I play with it is not like they go out and shoot within 4 shots of their average score time after time after time. Instead there is a 20 shot spread between outings on the same course with regularity.
Of course, that is a bit different from a tournament setting...but I think it is a legit consideration in some small way.
And, in fact, this last week on a 126 slope course my driver was off and I was slicing my short irons, I shot a 106. The next day on a 124 slope my driver was long and straight, my short irons and wedges were money and I shot an 87...and actually was disappointed with it as I felt I left about 10 shots on the table when i lost my rhythm between the par 5 that had FIVE groups on it simultaneously and being distracted by the betting banter the 2 guys I was matched up with were having, albeit thoroughly enjoying the round.
Point is, I genuinely felt like one day the 106 was perfectly reasonable for a golfer of my abilities. The next day I felt like an 87 was too high for my abilities. And due to the recent stature of the handicap, I legitimately feel that on courses sloped about 125 anywhere from a 75 to a 125 is well within reason for me.
Feeding into that, the guys I was matched up with in my last round were playing the tips. I was rushed getting there, got in zero putts, zero time on the range and had maybe 2 warmup swings before I teed off having just watched 2 of the 3 guys from the championship tees put balls dead center middle about 300 yards out. I should have been 2 tee boxes up but just went one, consider this my apology. Anyhow, 2 of the guys were just nails. Drive, iron, 1-2 putts. It felt like one or the other of them birdied every hole on the front while John and I sampled the areas left, right, short and long of the green. He looked like he had no business not only on the championship tees but even on the tees I was scuffling on. I was not planning to turn this round in for a handicap so did a couple things I rarely do...upon hitting balls ob instead of laying 3 off the tee I cheated...err, took mulligans...and was something like 12 over still after 9. Realistically I was probably 20 over, maybe worse. It was ugly.
Then on the back I was a legit 1 over after 6...3 pars, 2 bogeys, and a birdie on the toughest hole on the course...and he was 1 under. Both of us were strokes ahead of the scratch golfers. Within the same 18 holes there was a complete flip flop.
When I see someone play wildly different than their handicap, my first thought is seldom they are sand-bagging or running a vanity cap. My thought is, "They are having one of THOSE sets of holes". Honestly for most of the guys I play with it is not like they go out and shoot within 4 shots of their average score time after time after time. Instead there is a 20 shot spread between outings on the same course with regularity.
Of course, that is a bit different from a tournament setting...but I think it is a legit consideration in some small way.
While you make solid points the variation possibility decreases the closer you get to par.
Yes, a 25 handicap person can (and will) shoot anything from low 80's on a great day to 125 on a bad day.
Seeing a mid 20's cap shoot 74 is virtually unheard of....we have many guys that are single digits that have never broke 75. I would call absolute BS on a 20 plus cap shooting 74.
As someone's that been as low as a 7 and shot 76 as my personal best on a GREAT day, this one just doesn't add up for me.
Martsy
New member
Why do people lie about handicaps
While the standard deviation is much great as handicaps get higher, the odds for a 22-30 handicap to shoot a differential of 10 is 874:1. (125,000:1 for a 0-5 handicap). Now 1 in 874 while unlikely, not impossible. But that is just for a differential of 10. Without knowing the slope of the course the OP was playing, we're talking at least a differential 20 is somewhere in the range of 5,000,000:1 for a 22-30 handicap. I'll take the odds on that one that the score wasn't legit. If you somehow think that's a possibility for you, then I'd submit you aren't calculating your handicap correctly in the first place.
While the standard deviation is much great as handicaps get higher, the odds for a 22-30 handicap to shoot a differential of 10 is 874:1. (125,000:1 for a 0-5 handicap). Now 1 in 874 while unlikely, not impossible. But that is just for a differential of 10. Without knowing the slope of the course the OP was playing, we're talking at least a differential 20 is somewhere in the range of 5,000,000:1 for a 22-30 handicap. I'll take the odds on that one that the score wasn't legit. If you somehow think that's a possibility for you, then I'd submit you aren't calculating your handicap correctly in the first place.
Wake
Active member
I'm no statistician, so I just want to make sure I'm understanding you are saying it's 874-1 that a 22 handicap would shoot 10 better than his handicap? Do on a 72 rated course an 82?
Wouldn't it be 84? 72 + 22 - 10 = 84 (and technically, I think the 22 is a course handicap, not personal handicap)
Drew keeps track of stuff tighter than anyone I know. His number is legit. I suspect his opinion about being able to shoot the number is a reflection of what has been mentioned above - he is improving so the number hasn't always caught up with his game and how the standard deviation tightens pretty substantially as you go lower.
Wake
Active member
I don't math no good before 7
Mystery Meat
Ben Hogan Fan
I'm more confused who drew is ? We have Ed/ Frank's / Tony's / Jay's on here but I never see those names . I'm confused who is who on here more than anything.